25-02-2003 09:00									#1
	RPers offer a deal Support Apolyton

Well do to the Galley the RPers are wanting to deal so they've offered this.

(togas) How about we give you math, writing, mysticism for mapmaking & your world map.

Now I know the WM is out of the question but I think we should offer a counter so as to keep good relationships with them.

Here are their techs:
bronze
masonry
alphabet
pottery
wheel
warrior code
ceremonial burial
iron
math
writing
myticism
literature(soon)
horseback riding

So what your guys opinion on this and how to handle it?

	25-02-2003 10:45									#2
	Got spare money?

They were supposed not to know that we have a galley, weren't they?

	25-02-2003 10:56									#3
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Well, if they've found out about the galley, we'll just have to employ some of the stalling tactics they love so much. As discussed in our master plans, we can't make contact until the GLib is ready. If they do know for a fact that the galley is sailing, we can just tell them that it was built on the far side of our continent (true) and it will take a while to get around (also true). We just don't have to mention that we're going the long way...

As for trading maps, we've all agreed that's out of the question. I'm not adverse to trading techs with them, but which techs is the more important question...

	25-02-2003 11:10									#4
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I've just seen it: what kind of deal is that? They want to give us writing in exchange for MM ?!! When did they play civ3 last time??

AFAIK we have mysticism, too; or not?

Anyway, by the time we'll have met, the situation will be totally different, so let's not speculate too much about what to trade.

	25-02-2003 11:24									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

RPers do know we have a galley sailing out (they were told so), but they were specifically informed it would take 30-35 turns to get to the crossing point, so there is no problem.

As far as I know, this deal is of very low attractivity to us, since:

1) we will never ever give out our world map. NEVER EVER!!!
2) we already have Writing (how could we have MM without Writing, he? ) and Mysticism (from a hut)
3) we believe we will get all the techs through the GLib

OTOH, we do want RPers to miss Map Making (and thus any naval abilities) for as long as possible - that would help both ourselves and Luxes. So my counter would be to offer them Mathematics for Map Making (making sure they realize we will not be able to actually exchange the techs earlier than in 30-35 turns). The research cost of Map Making is 12, Mathematics is 8. If we present it as "we do not need Mysticism & Writing, since we already have those, so let's omit those and the map and make the rest a deal.", they might think of how great a deal they are making. Especially, if we drop something like "yeah, we know that the research costs are not the same, but we kinda owe you a bit for all that intelligence plus Map Making is perhaps not a key tech for you, so let's make it this way."

BTW, are you, guys, shocked as much as I am by how great we are doing research-wise? We are only two techs behind the RPers!!! (if they do not hide some techs). That's freaking great!

	25-02-2003 19:02									#6
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I've never had goody huts so plentiful and so packed with goodies. Those huts are what kept us at our current research pace.

	25-02-2003 20:26									#7
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Yes the deal also gave us some much needed sold evidence on where we are tech wise compared to the world.

	01-03-2003 03:43									#8
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The deal with the RPers is off they will soon get MM from GoW.

	01-03-2003 05:54									#9
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quote: The deal with the RPers is off they will soon get MM from GoW.

Hmm, this is a bit concerning !!

With GoW getting MM, it means that they are likely going to explore Mystery Isle (assuming that it is the same island)... why else would they be researching Map Making? Probably they are looking for more areas to colonize (or a possible escape route from ND).

Any suggestions?

We can either: (I am assuming that there is something there on Mystery Isle)

a) Land a unit and hope to get off before GoW comes on
b) Sail around it and hope we avoid their galley
c) Ignore mystery isle

If a) is chosen , we have to decide what unit to explore with. It is very likely that GoW would use a horseman for exploration as that would allow them to explore it faster. That could cause problems if they decide to attack. Another danger would be if we put a merc there, they could attack just to hope they trigger our golden age prematurely.

A related danger is that is that it is our nearest neighbours that will have Map Making - making it likely that one or both may be coming to search for us to make contact or something else worse...

	01-03-2003 10:23									#10
	Tired of ads?

Hmmm... I think this increases the importance of finding out the true nature of mystery isle all the more, as well as giving us some motivation to consider a floating blockade at key coastal choke-points...

	01-03-2003 21:48									#11
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Floating Blockade works fine with the AI, but it's more complicated with real people.

Lets not go over board in changing our plans. Maybe we could do some "smart" exploration with our galley; whenever it get's to the island.

	03-03-2003 17:58									#12
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I have had an interesting conversation with Hot_Enamel (GoW) today. I am including the full chat log FYI...

quote: [13:07] Hot_Enamel: GoW news for you [13:07] vondrack: oh? [13:07] Hot_Enamel: We have almost finished mapmaking [13:07] vondrack: hmmm... congrats! [13:07] Hot_Enamel: And have some galley prebuilds [13:08] vondrack: when will your first galley sail out? [13:08] Hot_Enamel: 3-4 rounds I think [13:08] vondrack: good [13:08] vondrack: any objectives set? [13:08] Hot_Enamel: Meet you guys [13:08] vondrack: that would be great [13:08] vondrack: any idea how to get to us? [13:09] Hot_Enamel: Although we suspect we cant do it withour your help [13:09] Hot_Enamel: without [13:09] vondrack: how come? [13:09] vondrack: suicide galleys? [13:09] Hot_Enamel: You have MM right ? I read that somewhere [13:09] vondrack: yes [13:09] vondrack: just one galley though [13:10] Hot_Enamel: two suicide galleys from each team may reach each other [13:10] vondrack: hmmm, the problem is that we have only one galley and can't afford to lose it ATM [13:10] vondrack: as another one is nowhere close to completion [13:11] Hot_Enamel: We have other problems on our continent as well [13:11] vondrack: is there any area off your coast that would promise a shallow crossing? [13:11] vondrack: yeah, heard something... [13:11] vondrack: how's ND treating you? [13:11] Hot_Enamel: We dont know yet...we have not explored west/east coasts. [13:12] Hot_Enamel: Hmmm [13:12] Hot_Enamel: We are having some dificulties [13:12] Hot_Enamel: They have many swords [13:12] Hot_Enamel: Who are fresh after Lux invasion [13:13] vondrack: they are getting more and more self-assured, aren't they? [13:13] Hot_Enamel: Yes....but they have the swords to back it up as well [13:13] vondrack: do you have iron to counter their swords with ones of your own? [13:13] Hot_Enamel: We have no offensive [13:13] vondrack: hmmm, that's bad [13:13] Hot_Enamel: Iron !! [13:14] Hot_Enamel: Thats our other problem...no iron. [13:14] vondrack: oops [13:14] vondrack: you seem to be quite at their mercy [13:15] Hot_Enamel: We are militaristic and can pump out veteren horsemen if we need to. [13:15] Hot_Enamel: It would be a stalemate [13:15] vondrack: are they aware of that? [13:15] Hot_Enamel: We try not to talk about war with them [13:16] vondrack: I see [13:16] Hot_Enamel: With Lux gone, there is good land for both of us [13:16] Hot_Enamel: We are both Rexing [13:16] Hot_Enamel: And staying out of each others way [13:16] Hot_Enamel: We tried to get the Lux Iron, but ND beat us [13:17] vondrack: but you assume you will have to fight them sooner or later, right? [13:17] Hot_Enamel: Most likely [13:17] Hot_Enamel: Their land is not good. [13:18] Hot_Enamel: South of them is JUNGLE, and lots of it. [13:18] vondrack: are you lacking anything important, but iron? like money, techs... dunno... [13:18] vondrack: re: land [13:18] vondrack: same applies to us here [13:18] vondrack: lots of jungle south of us [13:18] Hot_Enamel: They are prefering to expand North where we are [13:18] vondrack: bastards... [13:18] Hot_Enamel: We would do the same [13:18] vondrack: bastards... [13:18] vondrack: [13:19] vondrack: I know [13:19] Hot_Enamel: Jungle or grassland [13:19] vondrack: it is easy to j/k, when we are alone [13:19] Hot_Enamel: Yes [13:19] vondrack: well, what help could we be to you? [13:19] vondrack: would you need money? [13:19] Hot_Enamel: We are fine regarding tech/gold [13:19] vondrack: that's just about the only thing we have enough of [13:19] vondrack: yeah, I guessed so [13:20] vondrack: we must already be quite behind in techs [13:20] Hot_Enamel: Most likely...but its not hard to catch up. [13:21] Hot_Enamel: Vox & GS were behind...we all made a bit of money from them...but now they are equal [13:21] vondrack: hmmm... seems we will have to cash some more barbs here [13:21] Hot_Enamel: [13:21] vondrack: well, as for the galley meeting [13:22] vondrack: how far your continent extends to the West? [13:22] vondrack: 'cause that's something we have no idea about [13:22] vondrack: errr, our West, so your East [13:22] Hot_Enamel: Ahhhhhhh [13:22] Hot_Enamel: I was confused [13:22] vondrack: sorry [13:23] Hot_Enamel: It juts out in the south [13:23] Hot_Enamel: Let me recheck [13:25] vondrack: the reason for asking is that we believe there is at least 10-12 tiles of water between our North-East and your South-West coast [13:26] vondrack: so unless you can spot any mid-way island to help jump across that space [13:26] vondrack: even suicide galleys might be unable to meet [13:27] Hot_Enamel: I just check our latest maps [13:27] Hot_Enamel: I dont see any shallows [13:27] vondrack: damn [13:27] vondrack: nor in the East, nor in the West? [13:28] Hot_Enamel: The south-west & North-West corners jut out by 3-4 tiles [13:28] Hot_Enamel: The centre West is concave... ) like this [13:29] vondrack: I see [13:29] Hot_Enamel: It is difficult [13:29] Hot_Enamel: We have not mapped our entire continent [13:29] Hot_Enamel: RP banished our exploring warriors from the south [13:30] Hot_Enamel: ND owns the west [13:30] vondrack: yeah... quite unfriendly continent, this Bob, isn't it? [13:30] Hot_Enamel: We own the NorthWest [13:30] Hot_Enamel: ++ Good land were we are ++ [13:30] Hot_Enamel: Unfortunately, ND wants it too [13:31] vondrack: well, where does Bob end in the East? [13:31] Hot_Enamel: It looks like this )( [13:31] vondrack: I see [13:31] vondrack: our island ends well before the left edge of the minimap [13:32] vondrack: so we suspect that there may be another quite fairly sized landmass to the West of it [13:32] Hot_Enamel: The Vox GS continent is 1 tile from our East Coast [13:32] vondrack: as the ocean would be just unbelieveably huge if there was nothing there [13:32] vondrack: any idea how wide it is? [13:33] Hot_Enamel: Vox-GS ? Nope..we know nothing [13:33] vondrack: hmmm... looking at our merged minimap [13:33] Hot_Enamel: With MM comes map trading though [13:33] vondrack: we traded with all teams [13:33] vondrack: it seems that [13:33] Hot_Enamel: You traded what ? [13:33] Hot_Enamel: Your map ? [13:33] vondrack: minimaps [13:34] Hot_Enamel: Yep [13:34] vondrack: a gap between the Vox/GS continent and our Westernmost coast is only slightly bigger, if not smaller that the gap between your SW and our NE coast [13:35] Hot_Enamel: It looks like you are going to be stuck there for a while [13:35] vondrack: it would be a tought decision where to try eastwards or westwards... [13:35] vondrack: yes, I fear so... [13:35] Hot_Enamel: Well ...11.30pm...gotta go [13:35] vondrack: ok, cya! [13:36] Hot_Enamel: Bye [13:36] vondrack: bye [13:36] * Hot_Enamel has quit IRC (Quit: )

I believe we shall try to explore that suspected Mystery Isle crossing pathway before GoW has a chance to get there (they will be sailing from the Northern coast of Bob, which will take them at least 3-4 more turns), then quickly withdraw and let them spend efforts on getting to us. They may very well decide to give a higher priority to REXing or building troops... either way, I believe there is a fair chance we will be able to stay isolated for a little while.

	03-03-2003 18:52									#13
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Well done, Radek! A lot of stuff we found out, while giving away very little info, and that without actually lying

	03-03-2003 22:31									#14
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Very good information!!

I have a clearer understanding of the other civs.

More importantly, we know we have 3-4 turns to explore. It would be nice to have a unit to drop off (barb$ or another hut), but I don't think we have the time or resources to utilize.

	03-03-2003 23:14									#15
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Hmm... at this point, a little war between GoW and ND might not be so bad for us. It would delay their explorations into our part of the world for a while at least, and let us continue on with our plans unhindered. Of course, if ND crushes GoW, that could be a much bigger problem for us later on...

	03-03-2003 23:21									#16
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quote: Originally posted by lmtoops Very good information!! I have a clearer understanding of the other civs. More importantly, we know we have 3-4 turns to explore. It would be nice to have a unit to drop off (barb$ or another hut), but I don't think we have the time or resources to utilize.

Actually, since their galley will be sailing from the Northern coast of Bob, we will have even more time to explore ourselves (like 6-7, I'd say). Not enough to drop a unit of ours there, but enough to get a clear picture of the area.

	04-03-2003 06:40									#17
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Ah interesting news!

Although we can't take everything at face value, it sounds like they are indeed very worried about ND and its 6 swords. Admittedly ND might want to seriously think about eliminating their 2nd front (i.e. GoW) to be able to almost fully concentrate on south and RP. Right now, Lux's razing strategy and leaving ND's swords unbloody may make it tempting for ND to strike at GoW soon, especially with GoW lacking iron.

We should also be reminded that GoW is now the only Industrious civ on the Bob continent - neither RP nor ND are industrious though both are religious (which may cause its own problems for GoW ). Perhaps an opportunity for us if GoW is eliminated or driven off of Bob .

It is too bad in a sense that there is a sea gap (albeit a tiny one) between us and GoW as it prevents us from trading any of our excess iron - and Astronomy is a long way off - perhaps we can convince GoW to help us get some of the techs that we may need to close quickly on Astronomy so that we can sell them our probable excess iron (perhaps in addition to the help we may get from the GLib).

Their only other alternatives for iron are:
a) trading with ND for it (not likely if ND plans to war on them especially as GoW requires iron for their powerful unique Rider unit)
b) sea trading with RP through the coast for it - would require both RP and GoW to build harbours
c) perhaps trading with Vox or GS for it - would work immediately only if they were completely connected by coastal squares to them and would also require both to build harbours.
d) They get an iron on Mystery isle (which is what they are probably hoping for) still will require harbours on their mainland and Mystery isle
e) That another iron expires and a new one pops up in their territory

d - is what GoW is probably most hoping for
b - is the next most likely unless there are no sea squares between the Vox/GS continent and Bob
a - is among the least likely unless GoW pays a LOT for it and very unlikely when they discover chivalry

Despite the fact that we don't entirely trust them, it is in our best interests to make sure that they survive. Especially without iron, with ND likely having more cities (albeit perhaps in poorer locations ?), a statemate is unlikely in the long run. However with iron and if GoW can make it with a decent number of cities when they obtain chivalry and have a supply of iron and horses, they may be able to hold their own against ND - although the cheap Ansars will make it difficult.

re: sending a unit to Mystery isle - can we afford to send the Farmerville archer up there? It might be well worth it to do so. Conan is in the area of Farmerville for now and MercG is moving back there. Marky Merc or Gaul helping out might be an idea as they aren't too far away. While we wouldn't necessarily have a unit IN Farmerville for a couple of turns we do have several units in the vicinity of Farmerville and the new settler/merc are heading that way too (though for other reasons). Regardless, it might be an idea to have a unit on standby to be able to send over to Mystery Isle very soon after we are contacted by GoW.

re: meeting up with GoW
It is clear that either they are duping us or they have no clue how close we actually are - due to their talk about suicide galleys.

Vondrack , I could swear that you were trying to convince them that they might meet up with us easier via their east and our west Don't think they bought it if that was the case, but nice try if that is what you were thinking...

I am a little concerned that they said that their objective was to meet us - either things are that desperate already or they have more nefarious plans (or both). It is also interesting that they never mentioned that "island" to the west of them - curious... I suspect that they will head west and look for iron, on the island and us in that order of priority.

If they and ND are REXing, ND may well now have more cities than us and GoW may reach our current city count soon (but we will pull ahead again with our new cities of course ).

Last edited by Sharpe on 04-03-2003 at 07:23

	04-03-2003 06:56									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe I am a little concerned that they said that their objective was to meet us - either things are that desperate already or they have more nefarious plans (or both). It is also interesting that they never mentioned that "island" to the west of them - curious... I suspect that they will head west and look for iron, on the island and us in that order of priority.

I agree with your analysis, though not on the nefarious part; if they are feeling pressure from being next to ND, they won't want to invade and devote both offensive units (and extra shields and maintenance for ships!) to invading Legoland.

The only thing I think we should worry about is GoW settling on unclaimed land (unclaimed in game, of course; we know that the Legoland is our divine right ).

	04-03-2003 12:33									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I don't think the GoW is after us. The only possibility this to happen is if they had made a deal with the ND to share our land between them. I find this very improbable at this point, as they know nothing about our continent. Besides, they are busy REXing.

They want to meet us to: (some guesses)

1. explore new lands, hoping there is room for them near an unsettled iron. They may have a hunch that Lux had fled in our direction, and that would be a sign that there is free, unsettled land and a searoute to get here; they are hoping to put a foothold on our "island" (do you really hope Radek that somebody will believe us, Radek? ) for a possible future expansion war

2. trade techs and/or resources/luxuries with us

3. find an ally on the long run against ND

	04-03-2003 12:34									#20
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Their only other alternatives for iron are: d) They get an iron on Mystery isle (which is what they are probably hoping for) still will require harbours on their mainland and Mystery isle d - is what GoW is probably most hoping for

Well, unless Hot_Enamel plain lied to me, they know nothing about our Mystery Isle, so they can hardly hope for getting iron there... and as I can see no reason for him to lie in this matter, I really believe they do not know. Either that island was just a misinformation from RPers (could be!), or the island is actually located North off GoW's coast.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Despite the fact that we don't entirely trust them, it is in our best interests to make sure that they survive.

I definitely agree. Helping them to pose as much of a problem to ND is in our interest. If we get a spare iron, I would go to great lengths to help them make use of it.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe re: sending a unit to Mystery isle - can we afford to send the Farmerville archer up there?

Basically, we might send a unit there, I think... but getting anyone to the position on our NE shore would take quite some time (unless we use a unit from Jackson, which I would not recommend), so I would prefer exploring with our galley first... we'll see if it is worth the hassle.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe re: meeting up with GoW It is clear that either they are duping us or they have no clue how close we actually are - due to their talk about suicide galleys.

I somehow believe that Hot_Enamel was not lying... if he was, then he was doing it very well. We have to consider this possibility, too, but I lean toward considering his info genuine.

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Vondrack , I could swear that you were trying to convince them that they might meet up with us easier via their east and our west Don't think they bought it if that was the case, but nice try if that is what you were thinking...

I was trying to confuse them as much as possible...

	04-03-2003 12:37									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius they are hoping to put a foothold on our "island" (do you really hope Radek that somebody will believe us, Radek?

ya know... being a non-native speaker... I sometimes mix expressions up... not really getting the differences

Besides... it's just a matter of perspective...

	04-03-2003 19:52									#22
	GoW - SH*T Tired of ads?

I've just got an email from GF:

quote: Hey, I can't contact anyone with the Lego team for some reason. We (GoW) are prepared to offer the following deal: We can see the coast of another continent to our west. If we make first contact we will give you all the techs your team doesn't already have. We will also negotiate a split of any gold we receive for selling contact to you with the other civs. In return we ask 100 gold and that you research Construction and give it to us the turn you complete it. We have a deal to get Monotheism from Lux (their Scientific so get immediately upon entering the next age) and are trading Construction to them for it. We would give you Monotheism the turn after you give us Construction (the minute we get it) and then we make a deal where you research Feudalism after which we research Chivalry.

	04-03-2003 21:34									#23
	Support Apolyton

Well, I guess, the question now is not if we want to accept it, but how to politely reject this offer. We would have our research freedom restricted so tightly that we'd be effectively unable to follow our own goals...

First: I would suggest telling them that we consider it impossible they could see our coast, because we have (almost exclusively) mountains on our NE coast and can see not a single bit of their continent (that is true, as we know that what we - and they - can see is an island between the two continents) and that we would suggest arranging any deals only after making actual ingame contact.

Second: I would indicate that 100 gold for all the techs we are missing would be an acceptable deal (and it would really be, even if as a backup plan for O2E - we have money enough and more coming from barb camps).

Third: any future tech cooperation would be negotiated only after the ingame contact is made and techs/money exchanged. We may consider it (very) disadvantageous to spend our beakers on Construction if lacking other key techs (like Monarchy/Republic)... if they wish to pursue this part of the deal, we should ask for the list of the techs they can currently offer - to see how far we can get with their tech-help.

My impression is that they are hesitating a bit after my conversation with Hot_Enamel and wish to ensure that any efforts spent on travelling to us would be worth it.

I suggest we pose as difficult to trade with, perhaps even "bluffing", hoping for lopsided deals... getting them pissed off, deciding like "let those bloody Legos get to us on their own, if they wish to be that difficult" would be exactly the thing we'd like to happen. If not, we'd still lose nothing, as we would be getting yet another backup plan for O2E for cheap.

Note: keep in mind that the most they can send at us is 2 horses - even if they really wanted to be difficult. Two horses are no threat to us... everywhere we have got something they could damage, we also have roads allowing us to strike back fast.

Other than this, I would proceed as planned before. Even if we make contacts and have to develop cover-ups for our wonder builds, I am still quite certain we will be able to succeed. Plus, the island between us and them (which is what they can see) will slow their expansion down, since they would settle it before proceeding towards our mainland. Besides, I consider it very unlikely that they would expand outside Bob, since they are currently competing for good land with ND there.

In the meantime, I will check with Trip, if the deal GoW are mentioning is real.

	04-03-2003 21:35									#24
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Wow, we seem to be way behind in research. This is a good deal if we do not get the GL. Maybe we can hold them off (and other civs) until that time.

We need to know when Lux will discover Monotheism (how many turns?).

	04-03-2003 21:49									#25
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Well, I would estimate we have at least 7-10 turns of "wiggle" room here before we would have the possibility of actually encountering one another. I also beleive that they are probably seeing an island in between, and not our lands. Of course, depending on the size and quality of those islands, we may also want to stake a claim on them. I would hold off on any response for a few delay turns, as well as until we can confirm with Trip about what they've said.

	05-03-2003 00:30									#26
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We should also ask Lux if they know GoW's tech list, and if they would be willing to give it to us. That would let us know what we'd be getting for 100 gold.

	05-03-2003 03:12									#27
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Delay Delay Delay....that is our strategy. When O2E works, we will not need any deals. Obviously there are several deals to be had if O2E fails. There is no need to commit at this time.

I looked at the map and I agree that GoW must be seeing an island.

	05-03-2003 03:25									#28
	Increase Your PM Length

As the ambassador to GoW, I will have a response proposal ready later this evening for everyone to review...

	05-03-2003 04:08									#29
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OK, so to cast some light on this proposal... just talked to Trip:

Luxes have no deal about Construction, Monotheism... whatever. GoW is making this part up. Actually, Luxes are just researching Construction themselves.

quote: [23:32] vondrack do they have a deal with you? [23:33] Trip they offered it to us [23:33] Trip we don't have a deal [23:33] Trip WE are researching construction, actually :P [23:33] Trip they claimed to be researching it

Knowing this, we shall probably be careful to take the proposal as honestly and seriously meant...

	05-03-2003 08:36									#30
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Ok, after having a chat with Vondrack, Sharpe, and Kloreep earlier today, we've unofficially decided that it's time to grab the bull by the horns and make first contact on our own terms. With that policy in mind, here is a draft to respond to GoW

Panzer32 (their ambassador to us),
In regards to the offer recently extended by your fine empire to the people of Legoland, I would first and foremost like to show our appreciation. In the spirit of cooperation, we will soon be dispatching a ship of peace to attempt to reach the shores of your far-off land. Though we cannot guarantee the journey will be successful, as we believe the sea to be wide and trecherous, we will attempt nonetheless. Though we are unprepared to confirm any agreements at this moment, as contact is not yet assured, we will be happy to discuss terms once we have met in person.

Thank you,
ZargonX
Ambassador to GoW


So, there you have it. We already have the head start in getting there, so contact can be made on our terms. Though, should we decide to veer off for some reason, we can always claim the passing was impossible (which it might be; who knows for sure) This should give us some more time to figure out exactly what we want, and doesn't commit us to any deals yet for a very valid reason, I feel.