15-07-2003 01:48									#211
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Alright, I am a bit drunken at the moment... two bottles of white wine are two bottles of white wine, after all... unless I see someone objecting, I will PM Aidun with the PM as proposed after I wake up tomorrow... (I do not think I am in a state to take/do any FAM decision ATM... )

	15-07-2003 04:08									#212
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quote: Alright, I am a bit drunken at the moment... two bottles of white wine are two bottles of white wine, after all... unless I see someone objecting, I will PM Aidun with the PM as proposed after I wake up tomorrow... (I do not think I am in a state to take/do any FAM decision ATM... )

Oh , why not? You being in a drunken stupor would give us plenty of deniability... (just kidding)

Sure, send it off tomorrow, looks fine and surprisingly restrained - even I am tempted to tell RP to jump into Lake Ontario...

	15-07-2003 11:10									#213
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@ Steve

PM sent to Aidun and BigFree.

	17-07-2003 07:50									#214
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Well, you have to give them points for persistance...

quote: Hi We are in desperate times as you likely already know. I have come to ask for help, particulary in gold. We need a fw more upgrades and maybe a few rushes and we also need gold to pay Vox for Eng. Eng will help our troops reach hot spots more quickly. Our deal with Vox is for 200 gold buy eng. Any and all help you can offer will be surely appreciated. This combined attack for our two neighbors, with both of their UU's and both coming into their GA will be a huge strain on Spain. We thank you for you support. BigFree Chief Ambassador of Spain.

	17-07-2003 10:21									#215
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Well, as much as I despise RP for their politics over this game, I'd like us to help them. It is in our best interest to have a long war on Bob, not just a blitzkrieg with the RP destroyed in 10 turns. Fighting against 2 civs, both of them in their golden ages and with powerful UUs is not that easy. We want at least a 20 turn long war, don't we? Two more nations "wasteing" their GA on building military is certainly helpful. There is only one big problem: let's pray for a great-leader free war

So anyway my suggestion is to help them with Engineering. How much do Vox owe us for that earlier loan? Was is 70 (IIRC)? Let's consider those money our contribution to Eng. This way RP would have to play only the remaining 130.

This way we wouldn't give them money from our treasury and still help them a bit. Depending on how bad they will be doing later we will discuss further help.

Last edited by Tiberius on 17-07-2003 at 10:28

	17-07-2003 15:18									#216
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Steve - here is the begging part you wished for!

It may sound surprising (after all the expressions of my dislikes towards the RPers), but I basically agree with Tiberius. Just like in the Voxian-GS war, it is in our best interest to have a prolonged war of attrition on Bob. No worries about GLs - no warring party is actually able to build anything useful with them now... Sun Tzu's has already been built, Sistine's is ours, Leo's we waived - and neither ND or RP have Edu that is the key to all other fine wonders (GoW has it, but wants Leo's and waived Bach's). Warring civs are unlikely to research, so we will quite easily be faster to anything we will want.

Helping RPers to get Engineering sounds like an idea... I would even go as far as considering few more gold (not much, just to make the sum rounded, like 70+30)... on condition they offer something valuable in return. And that valuable something should be luxuries. With Astro in 9 turns, they will be able to provide us with luxuries through their port in Barcelona (IIRC). So, if they are reasonable and offer at least one luxury for 20 turns (once the trade becomes technically possible), I'd benevolently help them with ~100 gold. Not too much (we need gold ourselves, right, Steve? ), but at least a token sum that would make it a bit easier for them to defend against the invading hordes.

BTW - the IDEAL outcome of the war would be slightly stronger GoW, ND with no change, and slightly weaker RP. But that is not going to happen, I think...

And as a side-note: I would prefer sending the gold to RPers directly, later getting those 70 gold back from Voxes. I don't think ANYONE needs to know we would be helping RPers...

	17-07-2003 15:33									#217
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Sounds good, except that I'm not really sure that Barcelona will be on RP's hand 20 turns from now. Nevertheless, we can propose the deal. In the worst case, we will get the luxuries from somebody else

Good point about giving the gold directly. Let's keep our involvement secret.

Let's propose the 100 gold for luxuries then.

	17-07-2003 18:49									#218
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We are starting a trend. Giving war loans and providing safe refuge for the loser. So...where will we put RP?

OK, I suppose we can loan out more money.

	17-07-2003 19:26									#219
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So 'buy' Barcelona from RP..... then sell it to whoever wins

	18-07-2003 08:22									#220
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Agreed with 100 gold for a future lux.

quote: Originally posted by lmtoops We are starting a trend. Giving war loans and providing safe refuge for the loser. So...where will we put RP?

We'll give them a single city: Sandonorico.

	18-07-2003 08:43									#221
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Actually I don't think we should give them money - unless it is part of a trade for their luxuries (they now have 2 less customers to sell to ).

We should also see where GS stands on this war - to see if they are planning to intervene at any point (wouldn't surprise me if they want to weaken RP but not see them destroyed)

	18-07-2003 09:22									#222
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Ok, more fun from RP:

quote: Togas> OK, you are the leader of Legoland, correct? Togas> And you have a NAP with ND and GoW right now, right? ZargonX> Yes, I am the leader of Legoland Togas> We think we have a way that you can help us ZargonX> what do you propose? Togas> We propose giving you 2 of our cities next turn. Togas> If we survive this war, we'd like to have them back. You would receive the luxuries and income they generate the entire time. Togas> we believe that ND will honor their NAP with you, and that our people will be spared. ZargonX> hm... an interesting proposition ZargonX> I will take it to the senate for immediate discussion ZargonX> did you have an idea of which two cities? Togas> Santiago and Leon ZargonX> check Togas> It needs immediate discusion as we would do it this turn ZargonX> Who has the save now? Togas> we do Togas> we plan to play it tomorrow and send it out at the 24th hour ZargonX> ok, I will need to time to discuss with the others ZargonX> they are usually around at this time, though, so we will get back to you as soon as possible

	18-07-2003 09:27									#223
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There you have it. They want us to stand as legal guardians of their two cities while war wages around them. For the record, I also told Togas that I would have to check if such an action would violate any of our treaties with other teams (they are still unaware we DON'T have a NAP with GoW yet, officially, and I'd rather they didn't).

But, as for the actual plan, this has ZERO benefit for us. In fact, it could easily lead to very bad things for us. ND could construe it as a violation of our no-landing treaty, even with no units. ND could just up and attack the cities, putting us at a state of war. And, on a more basic level, I think it throws off our coruption numbers, and we can't have that

	18-07-2003 10:06									#224
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I agree with you, Zargon; we gain no benefit. Even if we had a harbor connection back to Lego, lack of astronomy means we couldn't get anything to the mainland. And doing this is going to piss off ND, violation of treaty or not, as we are clearly just getting in their way.

Perhaps send the 100 gold for a future 20-turn lux deal at the same time as the response to this? Might soften the blow. A little.

Edit: Crosspost with Tiberius. And in case I didn't make it clear, that's a big fat NO from me as well.

	18-07-2003 10:06									#225
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX But, as for the actual plan, this has ZERO benefit for us. In fact, it could easily lead to very bad things for us. ND could construe it as a violation of our no-landing treaty, even with no units. ND could just up and attack the cities, putting us at a state of war. And, on a more basic level, I think it throws off our coruption numbers, and we can't have that

I agree with Zargon, that would be a bad move. That would certailny piss off badly ND and GoW, ruin our relations with them, rise corruption, and so on.

That's a NO from me.

Edit: our treaty with ND says:

quote: Legoland agrees not to: enter Borconia (Bob) in the next 50 turns.

I'd certainly consider having a city on Bob as "entering" Bob. I think we don't want to enter in legal disputes about wether having a city on Bob violates or not our agreement. It certainly violates the "spirit" of it (GS would love my argumentation )
RP may think that we have only NAPs, but they don't know about the no-entering clause.

	18-07-2003 10:30									#226
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Wait a minute... what the heck does Togas mean they have the save? Darekill just posted in the savegame thread that it's on to GoW. And considering the situation, they might take a fair amount of time before RP has to worry about the clock.

Edit: I need to learn to read. Darekill was just posting when they sent the save earlier in the day. It is possible GoW had a quick turn as wars go.

Last edited by Kloreep on 18-07-2003 at 10:38

	18-07-2003 12:37									#227
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And another big fat NO from me. That plan is a total nonsense - not only it has zero benefit for us, but it harms our interests a LOT.

Let's send them 100 gold for a future 20-turn supply of luxury, but that shall be it.

P.S.: I am going to post my yesterday's chat with DeepO (GS) shortly. You will find their stance there.

	18-07-2003 17:00									#228
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I believe we are in agreement re: our help to RP, so I have just PMed BigFree with the following proposal:

quote: Honorable Ambassador, Apologies for not responding sooner - Poly was down and I needed to check some stuff in our forum + consult with the Senate of Legoland. The treaty that prevents us from getting involved is not a typical NAP... it is more of a "Neutrality Guarantee", I'd say. Simply put, we are not allowed to enter the continent of Bob. Because of that, accepting the city transfer your ruler proposed to our President last night would be a breach of this treaty, which is regretfully out of question. As for your request for emergency funding... we are currently not exactly drowning in gold, but we will do our best to accomodate you. ATM, the most we can put together is 100 gold. At this very moment, there does not seem to be anything you could provide us with in return, but we would strongly prefer making this sort of a trade instead of a loan only. We shall discover Astronomy in ~10 turns. Thanks to a recently finished harbour, we'll be able to start trading luxuries and resources then. We would be looking to get one luxury (ivory or silk?) for 20 turns in return for the 100 gold (as soon as the trade becomes technically possible). Would this be acceptable for Spain? With the best regards, vondrack, the FAM of Legoland

	18-07-2003 17:05									#229
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There is one more thing we could propose, but there's no need to rush it: a luxury trade. (dyes for the other luxury). Likle I said, there's no need to rush it, since we don't know how many luxuries RP will still have in 10 turns from now, but the idea is worth to be taken into consideration.

	19-07-2003 10:09									#230
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Will these guys ever learn?

quote: Hi Vond So I guess you guys could have guessed what was happening on Bob if ND asked for a 'neutrality guarantee.' I wished you had let us in on that. How about 100 gold now and 50 later. Perhaps in 3 turns? BigFree

Trying to haggle even now... I really, really dislike them... here is my response:

quote: Hi, BigFree! quote: So I guess you guys could have guessed what was happening on Bob if ND asked for a 'neutrality guarantee.' I wished you had let us in on that. Ummm... first: I've never said it was ND we had a treaty with, just like I've never said it was not ND. Second: we DID try to point out there was something brewing out on Bob... just that we ourselves had very vague idea what it was. The treaty was signed many turns ago and the 'neutrality clause' (the treaty reads something like: "...promises to not enter the continent of...") that is now turning out to be very important was actually a counter-clause for one we proposed regarding our own landmass (and as such was nothing we would have considered too important). quote: How about 100 gold now and 50 later. Perhaps in 3 turns? The offer we made was really the best one we could afford ATM (actually, we offered slightly more than what was the "acceptable/reasonable maximum"). Giving you 150 gold would make us run into troubles with our own plans (research, tech trades, builds etc.). Besides, while 100 gold for 20 turns of your luxury in ~10 turns is a so-so deal, 150 gold for 20 turns of your luxury would be a bad deal for us. Keep in mind we have little guarantee you will be around and able to fulfill your part of the deal, when it becomes technically possible. The risk is not negligible. So... the offer stands. 100 gold now for 20 turns of your luxury later. Best regards, vondrack

	19-07-2003 18:55									#231
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quote: Keep in mind we have little guarantee you will be around and able to fulfill your part of the deal, when it becomes technically possible. The risk is not negligible.

Ouch!

But, all in all, you hit upon all the points you needed to. Don't worry, though, I'm sure they'll just ask us for something else...

	19-07-2003 19:42									#232
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Well, I can understand them. They must be desperate.

	19-07-2003 20:04									#233
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I would understand if they asked for 50 (or even 70) more gold and offered an extra luxury - that I would consider perfectly ok (and frankly, I would consider it). But trying to get more gold while offering NOTHING extra from their side is just... dunno... it is not what I consider appropriate. It is not they would have nothing to offer - they DO have more luxuries... it is just they are trying to get a lopsided deal. AGAIN. And they feel surprised they have become the target...

And my 'ouch' note - do you think it was too harsh? I was thinking about that they will still have to:

a) be alive
b) posess the luxuries
c) posses an unblocked harbour

All that for at least 30 turns from now.

I apologize if I exceeded my mandate - I felt this was rather appropriate...

	19-07-2003 21:15									#234
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No, it was appropriate.

Clearly RP has no clue about how arrogant they have been in this game - either that or they don't care.

If I were in RP's shoes, I would be willing to sell 2 luxuries for upfront gold - besides with 2 less customers to sell to, why not?

Clearly GS agrees with us regarding the concerns about a 2 civ Bob and to try and lengthen the war. We should work closely with them on this once we are sure that it isn't a GS ruse (not likely given their pattern of behaviour towards us and their code of honour)

	20-07-2003 01:27									#235
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I thought the Vondracks comment was very much appropriate. If they question it, then just bring up the 3 points (alive, available lux., and a harbor) and there can be no argument.

Again, I say it is important to prop up RP (in coordination with GS), but it is no where near our top priority. We should not sacrafice our other goals for RP.

	20-07-2003 09:40									#236
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quote: And my 'ouch' note - do you think it was too harsh?

No, I didn't think it was too harsh. In fact, I think it was quite accurate. I just meant that, well, they probably didn't like hearing it even if it's true. No one likes being told that you don't want to trade with them because they may not be around long enough to make it worthwhile

The possibility of GoW turning around and backstabbing ND seems to be decreasing by the day, as it has been discussed in the public forum. Then again, I guess it could be some giant ruse between GoW and RP to throw ND off guard, but that seems highly dubious at this point... I guess the next few turns will tell all...

	31-07-2003 03:01									#237
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Received from RP just now...

quote: Lego, Lego, Lego ZargonX, Now that most of my work with GS seems to be done and there seems to be no activity in RP-Lego relations of late (Aidun is still inactive and BF is heading out of town), I'm switching gears and seeing if I can help here again just like old times. Speaking of that, are Nimitz and Spiffor still around at all? Any of my other DIA buddies from the SPDG? I've been gone for months and I haven't seen hide nor hair of those guys since I got back. I'd love to just talk to them about old times or something if they're around at all (which unfortunately doesn't seem to be the case ). As for RP-Lego relations, we need to have a chat. With GS entering the conflict, the odds have evened up a bit, but are still uneven. We are still facing two civilizations on our own continent with tall stacks of 3-move UU's and in their GA's. We lost a considerable number of units to ND last turn, though we did damage most of their Ansars, forcing them to take it slow for a bit. We're thinking that Legoland is probably best served by building like crazy while the rest of the world burns and we certainly respect that, but perhaps you'd also like to keep RP Team from being wiped out to at least keep the conflict good and bloody longer (giving you guys a long-term advantage because you can keep building). In terms of a builder strategy, this war is the best thing that could have happened to you guys, but if it ends too quickly in an RP defeat because GS can only help us so much, then attentions will inevitably turn toward the ever-growing Lego at some point (sorta like the ISDG). Please let me know times you or others from Lego might be available for chat and I'll see if I can get something together with Togas and myself, at the very least. Let me know. Thanks. - Arnelos

Heh, I guess we've got a bit of a suprise for them

	01-08-2003 04:31									#238
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While Vondrack was chatting about important stuff to our new allies, I was having a few words with RP, raising false hopes etc

Here is the log if you are interested although they give away little that we didn't already know....

quote: * Now talking in #castle * NuclearisWinterius sets mode: +o redstar1 [NuclearisWinterius] Welcome [redstar1] thank you [NuclearisWinterius] can we wait a bit until togas comes? [NuclearisWinterius] hehe the name of the room is an homenage to legoland [redstar1] lol we are honoured [redstar1] sure no probs [redstar1] i think vondrack is a bit busy atm ... [NuclearisWinterius] call whoever you feel like [redstar1] i'm sure he'd like to talk to you too [redstar1] well i can only get a response from myself [NuclearisWinterius] though i don´t think calling ghengisfarb a good idea, really [redstar1] lol [NuclearisWinterius] Are you the current leader of legoland? I am a bit un-updated regarding your team, sorry [NuclearisWinterius] I think actual is zargon, right? [redstar1] oh no, Zargon is the president [redstar1] i hold no ministerial post, I am shall we say, the Cabinet Secretary [NuclearisWinterius] Well, anyway you can surely bring the topic to your forum later on * Togas has joined #castle [NuclearisWinterius] Hello togas * NuclearisWinterius sets mode: +o Togas [Togas] hello [Togas] I'm currently at work right now [NuclearisWinterius] Well, are you waiting someone from Lego redstar? [Togas] so I won't be extremely talkative, trying to get some files finished before lunch [redstar1] hiya [redstar1] no, go ahead [redstar1] i'll post log anyway [redstar1] so guys, what can we do for you [redstar1] NW mentioned a strong need for gold... [NuclearisWinterius] We are really in need of gold, but we could use techs too [NuclearisWinterius] We need something to allow us to make up for the productivity disadvantage we are facing, so maybe techs could help [Togas] let's be frank. I don't believe a tech or two is going to stop the Ansars hordes from sacking yet another city. [redstar1] right, i'm not aware of the tech situation to be honest. what are or were you researching? [Togas] researching nothing. All of our gold goes to rushing units [redstar1] what sort of help are GS giving? [Togas] more help than Lego. [redstar1] to be frank we aren't in any position to help militarily [Togas] we know. [redstar1] so what that leaves is gold and tech [NuclearisWinterius] So, you can always lend a hand gold-wise, eh? [NuclearisWinterius] Does Lego have Navigation? [redstar1] no, not yet [NuclearisWinterius] [redstar1] navigation aint gonna help you though [Togas] Conqustador would allow us to at least get a GA started, maybe boost production, narrow the gap a little. [NuclearisWinterius] it takes us nearer to our UU, wich is what we seek [redstar1] oh yes, i understand [redstar1] you obviously haven't had a Ga yet then [Togas] nope [NuclearisWinterius] not yet [redstar1] having a look at our treasury, we have a little over 100 gold [NuclearisWinterius] more than we have, surely [redstar1] i imagine so [redstar1] you rushing units? [Togas] I'll be frank -- any gold you give us we'd be exceptionally grateful. It will go to rushing pikes and giving us a better chance to hold out agains the Arab hordes [NuclearisWinterius] not only but also [Togas] however, more than just gold, we could really use intelligence help. [redstar1] ahhh intel we most likely have [NuclearisWinterius] We are taken to believe lego ahs a large navy, right? [redstar1] what exactly are you looking for? [redstar1] if by large navy you mean a galley then yes [NuclearisWinterius] screenshots from both of the beligerants´s territory [Togas] nuc -- hold on a sec. [Togas] I'll lay this out. [NuclearisWinterius] ok [redstar1] cool [Togas] Lego knew the war was coming and never hinted about it to us. Signed pacts with ND that forbid you from getting involved. [redstar1] i don't think thats fair [redstar1] we had no indication of a move against RP [Togas] it is. [redstar1] and our treaty with ND forbade any lgo presence on Bob [redstar1] lego [redstar1] that was signed a long time ago [Togas] there is obviously politics going on in the background, talks between the teams. [redstar1] and to that end we have proceeded with a policy of not going overseas [redstar1] of course, all teams talk to each other [redstar1] but i'm not aware of any indication given of an attack on spain [redstar1] the first we knew was the official announcments [Togas] I don't know the whole of it, I don't claim to, I know that you guys are intelligent guys and are more keyed into what is going on with our enemies than we are [redstar1] we like to think we have good relations with all the teams [Togas] we also thought the same thing, but what teams say to your face and what they say behind your back are two different things. [redstar1] well thats been true in this game before [Togas] in any event, I'm sure Lego knows that this war is quickly becoming a world war. With GS cities we gifted to them being attacked by GoW, they are now at war with GoW. [redstar1] all i can tell you is what has been reported in our public forums and discussed in the chat rooms [redstar1] and to my knowledge we weren't aware of it [redstar1] to be honest we would have expected ND to look North [redstar1] yeah, it does concern us [Togas] What is going to happen in the next few weeks is clear -- GoW is going to try to get you guys involved. [redstar1] we have no wish to get involved in a conflict, but at the same time our friends are in need [Togas] GoW and ND are going to talk to Lego. Sides are being drawn up [redstar1] no doubt GOW will come calling [redstar1] as far as i know we haven't been officially asked [redstar1] but i imagine they have been testing the waters [redstar1] in the same way, i imagine GS have been doing the same [redstar1] we are concerned about GS gaining cities on bob [redstar1] but i understand they are to be handed back [redstar1] ? [Togas] Frankly, we were going to give the cities to you. [Togas] We first came to Lego. Offered the cities, were rejected. [redstar1] i know [Togas] We then went to GS [redstar1] our initial reaction was that we didn't want to break any treaties [redstar1] but i don't think we thought GS might become involved or that things were quite so serious [Togas] things are very serious. We're being attacked with the UUs of two nations who are both in their golden ages. [redstar1] as it turns out, they were attacked anyway [Togas] it doesn't get any more serious or desperate for us [redstar1] ok guys so tell me, what do you need from Lego [redstar1] what do you request from lego to put it another way [redstar1] and i would imagine we would certiainly do what we can [Togas] Tech and gold will help, that is a given. I know my people will be extremely grateful to receive any such help. [redstar1] remembering we don't want to get dragged into a war * Retrieving #castle info... [Togas] however, more than tech and gold, in my mind, is information. [Togas] we know you can't get involved, so we won't ask it. But I'd like to know what GoW and ND are secretly saying ... see if they show any signs of weakness or concern. [Togas] see if we're making a dent at all, or if anything we do seriously worries them. Anything that worries them is good for us [redstar1] ok, tech and gold are things that we have [redstar1] intel is a bit more tricky, do you guys have a map of all of bob? [Togas] anything you give us will be used solely to defend ourselves. If you'd like we will agree to a permanent No-Trade on anything give to us by Lego [Togas] we have maps of the continent, yes. [redstar1] ok [redstar1] so theres nothing we can give you there [redstar1] communications... i imagine we could try and find out some information for you [redstar1] what the plans are etc [Togas] any intelligence you can provide will be greatly appreciated. [redstar1] no problem [redstar1] you don't mind me posting the log of this? [Togas] that's fine. [redstar1] it will all have to go through the FAM and all that crap [redstar1] else he might get stroppy [Togas] I know that Lego is concerned about us getting GS involved. I just want to make it clear that they were our last choice, our only hope at trying to slow down the invaders. Thus far, we're not even sure it'll work, GoW is sacking GS cities now. [redstar1] yeah, how much hardware are GS supporting with? [Togas] GoW has a stack of 14 Riders stomping through eastern Spain. GS is sending units via galley, all we can see are their ships, all of East Spain is in their custody so we can't see their #s [redstar1] yeah [redstar1] i imagine they have plenty of ships anyway [Togas] they seem to. [redstar1] well lets hope they can protect you [Togas] we just hope they can protect themselves right now ... fighting that monster stack is going to be a major challange [redstar1] jees, where they get the time to build 14 offensive units! [Togas] horsemen upgrades, mostly [Togas] or so they say, GoW doesn't build much of anything [redstar1] hmmm, thats prob all they have,... [Togas] we pray that's all they have [NuclearisWinterius] if they have more, or even ND, we´re pretty much scrapped [redstar1] will GS intercept? [Togas] who knows [Togas] we just hope that GS will try to protect those cities and kill some/most of the GoW stack for us. [redstar1] well i suppose thats the least they will do [redstar1] meanwhile i'll push this and see what we can do for you [redstar1] oh, who told you we had a large navy? [Togas] I need some food. So I'll summarize and then go idle: [Togas] yes, we really could use gold to help us get mil units. [NuclearisWinterius] As you may know, time is against us, so please be fast wiht that aid... [Togas] I know all of Spain will be overjoyed to receive any gifts from Lego. [Togas] We would be more overjoyed if we could somehow get a Conquistador on the field and win a battle with him. [NuclearisWinterius] Much happier than to accept help from GS, that´s for sure ... [Togas] If Lego could assist us that way, it would be like an early Christmas for Spain [redstar1] i think lego would be overjoyed if we can help avert another tragedy... [NuclearisWinterius] What is lego researching? [Togas] but lastly, any help and information you can give us will also be extremely helpful. [Togas] Even harmless sorts of alliances and pacts and comments can reveal quite a bit [Togas] GoW loves to talk, and (if nothing else) knowing what they know and what they are asking can be very helpful clues to their true thoughts [Togas] I need to get some food. I'll bbl. [NuclearisWinterius] have a nice lunch, togas * Arnelos has joined #Castle [Arnelos] hello [NuclearisWinterius] Hello Arnelos! [Arnelos] I'm going to be idle while I'm packing out my apartment - go on * Arnelos is now known as ArnIDLE * NuclearisWinterius sets mode: +o ArnIDLE [ArnIDLE] my firewall won't let me do that [ArnIDLE] just e-mail it [ArnIDLE] arnelos at aol dot com [NuclearisWinterius] aol [NuclearisWinterius] Redstar, you there? [redstar1] yeah [redstar1] sorry [redstar1] phone [NuclearisWinterius] no problem [NuclearisWinterius] do you have an estimate of when you´ll get an answer from your team? [redstar1] oh [redstar1] i should imagine its normally pretty quick [redstar1] its unlikely to come from me though [NuclearisWinterius] OK, just asked, cause so to say our belts are tight right now, and time is in ND and GoW´s side... [redstar1] yeah i understand

	01-08-2003 04:55									#239
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Now... what about this completely crazy idea... what about giving RPers Astronomy for free?

vondrack gone mad, you think? Maybe... but try thinking about it... RPers are unable to research anything faster than in 40 turns. Thus, the fact that they get "closer" to Navigation is irrelevant. They could upgrade their galley(s) to a Caravel, but I bet they are putting all their efforts into the land operations... so the only real benefit from this would be that their vessels could go to sea... which does next to nothing for them - they do not have troops for any surprise behind-lines landings.

OTOH - they will have Astronomy... for free! Is this not a sign of the greatest friendship? A tech that is seemingly crucial to them... and not only that - if ND and GoW do not get Astronomy from us immediately (and that is what I expect, as neither of them expressed much interest in it), they will be able to see that GoW & ND did NOT get our tech. Which indirectly suggests we are not on very good terms...

I believe we would in fact NOT help RPers a smallest bit, while creating an excellent cover for our secret plans.

What do you think?

EDIT: yeah, we could trade Astro for luxuries, that would probably be even better

	01-08-2003 05:12									#240
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Developing this idea even further... what about trading them Astronomy for a luxury? They would get a tech we know is only marginally useful to them at best, while we would get a nice luxury... with luxuries from all over the world... WLT*D, anyone?

PLUS: as we are not going to join the war against them, only against GS, they will have no reason to cancel the deal once we join the show with our troops - if they do, our pre-game treaty would be voided (at least I would understand it so) and we would no longer be constrained in our actions on Bob.

The problem here is, though, that they will soon have no luxuries at all (or none available for trade)... all they have ATM is ivory (enough of), spices (but we get those from ND), silk (just one source) and that's it.

Yeah... most probably, we should tell them we understand they may lose the luxury - and that accepting the risk is actually a form of our help.