01-08-2003 09:42									#241
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I would just give them Astro for free. We're going to be getting at least two luxes post-astronomy anyway, possibly more if ND sweeps through RP, and as you say, we'll probably lose the lux quickly. However, I don't have a strong opinion on the lux/no lux; either way is fine with me.

The only downside I can see is that this potentially means Nav sooner if GS researches Nav next, but the chances of that are slim, I'd say. So let's give Astro. But let's check with GoW and ND first, explaining the situation and our reasoning, so that they neither hear about it after the fact or from someone else.

	01-08-2003 11:35									#242
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

We were going to give Astro to GS anyway, so giving it to RP doesn't mess up with things, I believe, plus it'd mislead them for a while. I wouldn't bother with the luxuries. They will most probably lose it anyway.

I wouldn't give them gold, blaming some upgrades.

As for the info they ask for, how about telling ND+GoW to prepare some fake data We then would just hand over this data to RP, doing exactly what they are asking from us

	01-08-2003 15:58									#243
	Support Apolyton

I've no problem with giving AStro free and giving them realistic but misleading information. The element of surprise is the most valuable resource we can hope for....

	01-08-2003 19:14									#244
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I would still ask for the luxury- telling them that it would help in increasing our population - i.e. more population = more production = more military and other resources

It is not as though they can trade them to anyone other than us, GS and Vox is there?

However, the pattern would have to go - giving Astronomy first , then one turn later them giving us the luxury (or trading 1 gold for Astronomy and 1 gold for the luxury). Besides, if we are lucky, RP will do their usual pattern and demand more for the luxury, thus giving us even more of a "cassi belli" against them

Since this RP "alliance" is supposed to be mutually beneficial, they might get suspicious if we give Astronomy for free as well.

Once we give Astronomy to both GS and RP, we can freely trade it with GoW and ND without them knowing. and if they do find out , we can say that they agreed to the same terms as RP - Astronomy for their luxuries

	01-08-2003 20:50									#245
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe I would still ask for the luxury- telling them that it would help in increasing our population - i.e. more population = more production = more military and other resources It is not as though they can trade them to anyone other than us, GS and Vox is there?

I, too, would ask for a luxury in exchange - they would be giving something that has virtually no value for them, while getting something of (seemingly) great value... we might reluctantly agree to take the risk of losing the luxury, if they lose it, too...

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe However, the pattern would have to go - giving Astronomy first , then one turn later them giving us the luxury (or trading 1 gold for Astronomy and 1 gold for the luxury).

Well, we could do the trade as two separate gifts, of course. Or we could trade in the old-fashioned way - I fail to see any difference...?

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Besides, if we are lucky, RP will do their usual pattern and demand more for the luxury, thus giving us even more of a "cassi belli" against them

Steve, you STILL need more?

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Once we give Astronomy to both GS and RP, we can freely trade it with GoW and ND without them knowing. and if they do find out , we can say that they agreed to the same terms as RP - Astronomy for their luxuries

Are we sure they cannot find out? I believe that if they went to the trading screen and threw a peace treaty in, they would be able to see if Astronomy could possibly be a bargaining chip or not...?

	01-08-2003 20:53									#246
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Steve, you STILL need more?

I like holding GIANT grudges....

True re GS and RP negotiations with GoW and ND I had forgotten about that. I was thinking about the Science Advisor's screen that they wouldn't be able to see that the number of turns to get Astronomy had been reduced.

	29-08-2003 14:15									#247
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

A message from BigFree:

quote: I'm ashamed of the way the PTWDG Forum has gone on lately. People need to back up and realize that it is only a game and not to make personal attacks. Too many people are trying to justify their reasons for doing this or that when in fact, no one but those who choose to listen will believe any of it. Oh well. I'm writting now to inquire about possibly getting Horses and/or Dyes from Lego. As you can see things are not going very well against ND and GoW. Even with GS's help, we are surely lacking. We fear that ND and GoW will soon have all of Bob to theirselves. Horse's, and thus Knights, might be able to hold them off. We just want a stalemate at this point; but are likely looking at extinction without help from Lego. RP and Lego made a before game Pact to help each other out and to be "most favored nations" between us. RP now meakly asks for Lego to assist us. If you could spare one of your Horse's or even get one from Vox (We have no trade routes to them); we might be able to hold off ND and GoW from taking any more cities from us. If we could just get to Navigation as well....we could have our own GA and help ourselves against these two foes. If this needs to be seen by your team, you have permission to post this in your own private forum. Thanks for your time. BigFree Representative of Role Play

I have to think this over...

	29-08-2003 20:04									#248
	Remove this text

This is a tough one to respond to.
- RP is not the enemy...but we hate them
- We are not at war with RP...but our allies are.
- Whatever we give to RP benefits GS...which is bad for us.

So the answer must be no, but how do we word it?

Or maybe we can give something that is of little real value. RP would see through it, but it would marginally comply with the "favored nation" definition.

On second thought, we should just say no. I see no need jump on a sinking ship. The "favored nation" treaty should not be considered to be endless. It was signed many, many turns ago. If we gave them horses, would that provide RP a path to victory? No, the outcome of the war is obvious, RP will be eliminated.

I'm not good a dipo double spead, but I would get to the point. The "most favored nation treaty" has expired. Any support we provide would not change the outcome of the war. If RP wishes to survive, I suggest they make peace.

	29-08-2003 20:56									#249
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Well, then... we should think of something that will seemingly help RPers without actually doing harm to us and our allies (of course, we would have to consult with them!). Posing as "reluctantly helpful" would improve our cover, which seems to be still working (I can't imagine RPers would know about our involvement and still bothered to contact us asking for help) and which is VERY important.

I have already PMed BigFree with a personal PM (stressed it was not official and everything would be subject to the team discussion and consensus). Besides other things I told him:

1) we might be able to provide them with dyes until Voxes set up their first harbour (pretending we promised our last dyes to them)

This is actually a mean trick... if you read the log I did not post (only attached to the brief summary) in the Operation Glorious Plastic thread, from the Thursday chat, you'll find out that ND/GoW plan to take Barcelona very soon. Which, however... cuts the trade route, right? We will be "unable to do anything about it"...

2) we might consider giving them Astronomy

We discussed this before... if we included an eternal no-trade clause (I told BigFree that would be a must), we would keep Astronomy from GS, while making sure that RPers spend their precious gold on the research of Navigation and not on upgrades or rushes. We very well know they will never be able to make any real use of it - but they will see it as a chance. Small, but still worth giving a shot (BigFree already responded, also with a personal PM, saying they would consider Astronomy a truly important contribution).

3) that we regard the whole "most favoured nation" as crap

...and explained why. He responded with saying he more or less understood - and telling me Togas was almost "killed" (roleplay stuff) in a coup. The RP team seems to be aware of that their diplomacy (which was largely dictated by their leader) and trading strategy backfired at them big time, effectively ensuring their demise.

4) we have only one horses connected and plan to connect the other ones to a single city only, planning to do a horse/knight pump

...which is even partially true. Besides, what applies to the dyes idea, applies to horses, too (no Barcelona, no trade route). To make it clear: NO WAY we would ever provide them with horses.

To sum it up:

I would seriously consider giving them something seemingly valuable (I'd especially consider giving them Astronomy) that will do no or little harm to our alliance. Keeping our cover seems much more important to me than a marginal help we would be giving them.

I do not really fear we would lose this war in the long run. But alerting or even just hinting RP/GS about we are siding with their enemies too early might in fact prolong the war and make our losses much higher... SURPRISE will be the key to our success.

And last but not least: I would, of course, consult any kind of our "help" to RP with our allies.

	29-08-2003 22:51									#250
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: - RP is not the enemy...but we hate them

You know, that is probably the best summary of the situation I have ever read

	29-08-2003 22:54									#251
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I would be against giving them astronomy. Sure, it may cause them to waste some gold, but it also means they could very easily give it to GS. We already got a lucky break in getting out of the earlier astro deal, so why create a new method to get it to them when we don't want them to have it? If GS is to get better ships, I say make them do all the work themselves.

	29-08-2003 23:51									#252
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX I would be against giving them astronomy. Sure, it may cause them to waste some gold, but it also means they could very easily give it to GS. We already got a lucky break in getting out of the earlier astro deal, so why create a new method to get it to them when we don't want them to have it? If GS is to get better ships, I say make them do all the work themselves.

Agreed. If I were RP, I would consider all clauses with us void after finding out what side we're on; and we can't count on RP being eliminated by the time we come out in the open, especially since GS could give them a safehaven on Stormia. (Maybe there was just something in nye's eye, but perhaps not. )

I would give them dyes (assuming ND & GoW agree), but nothing else comes to mind as givable.

	30-08-2003 01:03									#253
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I am completely against giving them astronomy for all the reasons stated, above. RP is in no position to deny astronomy from their only ally. We might as well gift astro. to GS.

Obviously, dyes would be fine.

	30-08-2003 04:06									#254
	Inflate your Upload Space

I am also against giving RP astronomy - as it would surely end up in GS's hands eventually.

I don't mind giving them dyes - especially as it won't be our fault if their harbor city is captured

Good and mostly accurate description of our horses situation - they will have to do without...

	30-08-2003 04:18									#255
	Full PM-box? Change here!

OK, I kinda agree with that it would be difficult to keep Astronomy from GS - after all, RPers are their ***** now and can't afford to say 'no' if "nicely" asked... especially after they find out we joined the "other" side. I did not really think of this when suggesting the gift.

Even if I think that GS researching Navigation instead of anything leading to gunpowder and later cavalry would be fine, I am not going to push this - as I do not even feel strongly about it.

I will contact Aggie and Darekill regarding the dyes. And I will think of a way how to tell RPers what we need to tell them...

	03-09-2003 12:20									#256
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

OK, here is a draft of what I believe we should send to RPers:

quote: Dear BigFree, I am writing this message not as an official communiqué from Legoland, but more as a personal letter - even if it does contain an official message from Legoland. It is just that a 'roleplaying' PM would be one of those that come out as an almost blank sheet of paper once run through a truthometer... I mentioned some possibilities of how Legoland could help Spain - but made it clear that the team would have to approve them. Well... we have had a big discussion in our forum. I will try to explain our main concern - and the main reason of our help being very limited, if any at all. Our emotions and past grudges with Spain aside, we have a major problem with this war. And consequently, with helping Spain. This war can potentially (but quite likely) lead to GS becoming THE world power, unrivalled by anyone else. If GS conquers a fair share of Bob, they will become too much of a threat even to us - and we made it clear to them we would join the war against them if that (GS grabbing too much of Bob) was going to happen. We are closely watching the events on Bob with a lot of worries. Now, even though Spain is still standing and fighting, we do not believe you would be in a position to say 'no' if your saviour ally asked for this or that. It may well be a question of your very survival, so you would naturally have to comply - and we could not hold it against you. Alas, this is where the issue of gifting you Astronomy becomes a problem for us. We were quite happy to have our previous tech deal with GS, involving Astronomy from our side and Banking from GS, cancelled at their request - simply because of security reasons. With GS getting heavily involved on Bob, we cannot rule out us being forced into the other camp, even if to a limited extent only, if things 'go wrong' (wrong from our PoV, of course). Our western coast is safe, protected by the ocean, until GS (or anyone else) acquires Navigation. Which helps us big time - Lego military is not stellar ATM and being able to settle the rest of our continent without the need for extra protection measures is indeed welcome. And if it ever came to the point we would feel forced to enter the war against GS (deliberately using "against GS" here, rather than "on GoW/ND side", because that's how we'd understand it), we would be very concerned about GS getting Astronomy and Navigation from you, because from that moment on, they would be directly threatening our exposed western coast. Additionally, we fear it would take you a long time to research Navigation anyway, making the value of the gift somewhat arguable, as it's real benefit would be uncertain and difficult to reap, while it's potential downside would be present from turn 1. So - to make the long story short. It's the involvement of GS that makes us hold back on gifting you Astronomy. Unfortunately, in our eyes, by helping you this way, we would help (at least potentially) GS, who are ATM the obvious candidate for winning the game. There is a poll about providing you with our dyes open which should close in less than 48 hours. If the notion passes (currently not 100% obvious, even if there are no 'strategic' reasons to be considered here), we will send you dyes as accepted on our next or next but one turn. Best regards, vondrack, the FAM of Legoland

Be so kind, read through the letter carefully and give me your feelings, please. Can we send this to them? Does this improve or spoil our cover?

	03-09-2003 15:06									#257
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hmmm, personally I think it says a little too much... They may certainly have ideas that this is the position we are taking but I don't think we need to come out and say it! I'd send something like this:

BigFree,

As you are aware, the members of Legoland were discussing at length how best to help you, especially regarding trading Astronomy. Some concerns were voiced about this deal and as a consequence the team has decided that we can't trade Astronomy to you at this time. The concerns were in the main regarding our own national security which is of paramount importance to us.

*add in something about dyes.... *

V


I think something shorter and a bit more vague like this might be the best way forward. I don't think we should mention GS because RP seem to go out of their way to play down or even ignore the assistance they get when talking to us.

Also at the minute we aren't 100% sure that GS can't reach us from the west... they might have found a string of islands for all we know...

Anyways, just my 2 pence!

	03-09-2003 17:03									#258
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I also think that it is too long/detailed. We could add something about our concerns regarding GS's involvement and our security, but overall the message should be much-much shorter. They won't care too much about our reasons anyway. All what they will see from the message is "they don't want to help us", I'm quite sure, with or without good and detailed reasons.

Besides the message focuses too much on GS and contains too much info they would be happy to see if RP decides to show them the message.

We could say that Astro has a strategic importance for us because gives us an advantage against seaborn invasions. See, I didn't even mention GS

	03-09-2003 18:38									#259
	Put an end to popups!

Agreed. The message says too much. Something along the lines of what Tibi suggests, saying that Astro is too strategic for us to give away, but luxuries we can deal with. Definately limit talk of GS, especially of us being "forced to join the other camp." GS will know where we stand soon enough, no need to get them riled up ahead of time. I don't think we need to justify ourselves too much to RP, so just a bare-bones letter would be more apt.

	03-09-2003 19:15									#260
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I do not disagree with shortening the message and rewording it some... however, the first draft does not contain anything we would not have told GS already (and I did assume RPers would show the message to GS) - we made it clear to GS we would join the other camp weeks ago, in a chat with DeepO (held after they accepted New Madrid).

	03-09-2003 19:50									#261
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Version 2.0 of the draft:

quote: Dear BigFree, We have had a big discussion in our forum regarding how to help Spain. While we are aware of your needs and fully acknowledge them, there has been a number of concerns raised, mostly regarding our own security. At the moment, we're the only civ with Astronomy - and that helps us with our defenses big time, by making it easier to focus only on those parts of our long coastline that can (theoretically) get under attack prior to Astronomy/Navigation. We understand Spain is still standing and fighting, but we believe your power is somewhat less than sufficient to allow turning down requests for valuables you might have - and Astronomy would be such a valuable... Additionally, we do fear it would take you a long time to research Navigation (which we understand is the real focus here) anyway, making the value of the gift quite arguable, as it's benefit would be uncertain and quite difficult to reap, while it's potential downside (another team acquiring it by whatever force it would be able to exert upon you) would be present from turn 1. There is a poll about providing you with our dyes open which should close in less than 48 hours. If the notion passes (which currently seems likely), we will send you dyes as accepted on our next or next but one turn. Best regards, vondrack, the FAM of Legoland

BTW, Aggie (GoW) has already approved the idea of gifting RPers dyes. I am still waiting for Darekill's (ND) opinion. If we have his approval, too, I will reword the last paragraph appropriately.

	03-09-2003 21:10									#262
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Much better.

	03-09-2003 21:42									#263
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes, that looks good

	04-09-2003 02:48									#264
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Much better

	05-09-2003 00:31									#266
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

PMed BigFree with the following message:

quote: Dear BigFree, We have had a big discussion in our forum regarding how to help Spain. While we are aware of your needs and fully acknowledge them, there has been a number of concerns raised, mostly regarding our own security. At the moment, we're the only civ with Astronomy - and that helps us with our defenses big time, by making it easier to focus only on those parts of our long coastline that can (theoretically) get under attack prior to Astronomy/Navigation. We understand Spain is still standing and fighting, but we believe your power is somewhat less than sufficient to allow turning down requests for valuables you might have - and Astronomy would be such a valuable... Additionally, we fear it would take you a long time to research Navigation (which we understand is the real focus here) anyway, making the value of the gift quite arguable, as it's benefit would be uncertain and quite difficult to reap, while it's potential downside (another team acquiring it by whatever force it would be able to exert upon you) would be present from turn 1. We will send you our only luxury, dyes, as accepted on this turn. We have promised these to Vox Controli, but until they finish the first harbour, creating a trade link between us and them (maybe even a bit longer), we will be providing them to you instead. Best regards, vondrack, the FAM of Legoland

	02-10-2003 03:58									#267
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In private chat about 10 mins ago.

quote: Arnelos> is ZargonX ever going to come back online so I can talk to him about us potentially helping Lego in the future? Kloreep> Dunno. Arnelos> afterall, our agreement with GS is to bail our asses out of this war in return for some land on Bob... that does not mean we are permanently forced to help them win the game Kloreep> He's been busy recently, GF's back was hurt... Arnelos> but if we can't get ANY form of talk with Legoland about future cooperation, we'll probably have little choice but to resort to GS as a long-term partner Kloreep> I'll pass this on to our forum. Arnelos> thanks

	02-10-2003 04:25									#268
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

It won't hurt to talk I suppose... our main danger is that RP tries to turn GS against us. So I would make chatting with GS a priority too (besides our lux trade with them is nearing its end soon).

	02-10-2003 08:16									#269
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Ok, found Arnleos finally

quote: Arnelos> hello ZargonX> hey Arn! ZargonX> heard you were looking for me Arnelos> indeed ZargonX> sorry, I know I have been scarce as of late Arnelos> it's ok Arnelos> I just need SOMEONE from Legoland Arnelos> because we really need to talk about this long-term stuff ZargonX> yes, indeed Arnelos> the situation is quite simple... Arnelos> We would be willing to be a trade partner and aid those looking toward winning the game... we would PREFER that the one(s) we did that with were looking for a stable playing out of the rest of the game Arnelos> in which RP remains alive and in possession of its home territory ZargonX> of course ZargonX> do you fear GS will try to exert more influence on Bob at the conclusion of the war? Arnelos> Obviously, for now, this clearly leaves GoW and ND out of the equation until such point that they might agree to such ZargonX> Arnelos> my concern is more that I'd like to prevent a major conflict after this one Arnelos> this one has nearly swallowed us already and if not for GS' intervention, it would have ZargonX> well, as we have stated quite plainly before: Lego has no interest in settling Bob Arnelos> GS may attempt to do something along the lines of what you are suggesting, but we figure that they're likely to be more kind to us than most because we do not represent a long-term threat to them ZargonX> so, in that aspect, we are more than willing to discuss situations that would lead to stability Arnelos> our agreement with GS covers mostly that GS does not want to see Neu Demogyptica win the game (neither do we) and while we're paying them some territory for their assistance, their main reason for being involved is to prevent an ND victory ZargonX> so what is RP's vision for the post-war world? Arnelos> GS also stated that while we should gift them cities for their own defense, they promised to gift those cities back... so far they've kept their word on that... Arnelos> that said, they'll obviously be keeping a piece of land to the north of us... their main concern is that their home continent is too small to compete Arnelos> Our vision for the long-term is that those who are seeking to win the game by force of arms be put back in their cages (read GoW and ND) and that the game rather be decided by race to culture/diplo/space victory. This would be done primarily through something of a system of collective security Arnelos> In other words, RP would agree to trade and be friendly with Lego as well as GS (as opposed to GS monopolizing our attention, as we believe they want) Arnelos> Additionally, if any power were to attack another with intent to swallow it whole and gain a further advantage over the rest of the world, we could help others to prevent this ZargonX> so a sort of tri-balance of world power Arnelos> something like that ZargonX> each keeping the other in check Arnelos> and allow the best builders to win the game ZargonX> it is an optimal vision Arnelos> yes... it would be difficult Arnelos> thankfully, we have seperate continents, this makes it easier Arnelos> especially when RR's hit the scene Arnelos> Legoland would obviously keep its own enormous continent, which you could EASILY defend through RR's Arnelos> your main concern, we understand would be whether any power gained too much power on Bob Arnelos> which is a multi-power continent ZargonX> well, obviously the idea of a 1-power Bob would be quite worrisome Arnelos> indeed ZargonX> or even a 2-power, with one holding the majority ZargonX> I would imagine that would worry GS as well Arnelos> this is why GS is in this war Arnelos> of course, GS also desires to win the game... they believe that cannot be done with their home continent alone... so they desire a piece of Bob Arnelos> We have succeeded thusfar in suggesting that it should be a small piece Arnelos> We figure that the optimal situation is one in which all remaining world powers are either committed to long-term stability or are too weak to damage it ZargonX> and you do not worry that they would try to conquer you if they had the military advantage after this war? Arnelos> actually, no.... we honestly believe that GS takes their "honor code" so completely seriously that they are unlikely to do, both because it is not in their nature and, more importantly, because they'd never live it down ZargonX> ZargonX> Guess that's a good a reason as any ZargonX> well, the situation you describe is one that I think the people of Lego would be agreeable to ZargonX> however, getting to the point at which it can be implemented is the tough part Arnelos> We have also been willing to discuss the matter with Vox Controli of them receiving a piece of Bob as well Arnelos> Vox is small and weak... not a threat and unlikely to become one. Even if GoW or ND (one of them) were to get wiped out, their presence could potentially be replaced in part by Vox... dividing the land and preventing anyone from getting too much ZargonX> ahh... a 2-continent Vox... their dream come true Arnelos> (chuckle) ZargonX> well, as I said, it does sound an optimal solution ZargonX> in the meantime, I am more than happy to take your ideas to my people Arnelos> now, for such a vision to be realized... first, RP needs to survive the immediate conflict and the ND/GoW alliance must be re-contained to prevent both their victory AND to prevent them from making the rest of the game a long warfest Arnelos> the larger problem is obviously going to be whether ND and/or GoW is willing to live long-term under such circumstances Arnelos> this is the main reason we'd want Vox to enter the continent... to take the place of one of them if such an arrangement cannot be worked out Arnelos> because we'd rather that GS didn't get too much of the land ZargonX> yes, I don't know if either of them would be too happy watching others build their way to vicotry around them Arnelos> this is the problem Arnelos> GoW, for one, is committed to fighting wars Arnelos> they will be a perpetual security risk Arnelos> so we're probably going to need Vox Arnelos> GS can have *some* of Bob, but we'd prefer not much of it Arnelos> as for us... our state is so incredibly weakened by this war that even if we gain territory back and have time to settle/re-settle it, we are like Vox... too far behind in the building game to conceivably WIN a builder victory ZargonX> I think we've all been amazed by what GS can do with only a little space... ZargonX> so I think even a small chunk would be sufficient for them Arnelos> indeed Arnelos> any chunk they claim is likely to be corrupt as hell unless they get a GL to build their FP on it, anyways ZargonX> so, I guess the real question is: do you truly feel the war will end in your and GS' favor? Arnelos> the liklihood of us at least SURVIVING this initial war has been increasing ZargonX> you believe it will end with some sort of detante? Arnelos> it's possible Arnelos> the problem is going to be GoW and ND's willingness to do that Arnelos> it's also going to be GS' desire for at least a piece of land Arnelos> We think it can be done if we can win, just enough, that we can't defeat ND and GoW, they can't defeat us, and the piece of land (mostly empty) to the very east can be claimed by GS ZargonX> a stalemate, as it were Arnelos> problem then is that the situation is not long-term tenable... the war will restart as soon as either side has an advantage again Arnelos> something like that Arnelos> at the very least, we get our land back Arnelos> and GoW and ND are re-contained ZargonX> and negotiations can begin Arnelos> that's a hope... but I'm not counting on it Arnelos> afterall... GoW is going to be a PERPETUAL nuisance Arnelos> especially if they feel caged and unable to win Arnelos> the liklihood that they'll just go berserk for the lack of better options will go up ZargonX> quite probably Arnelos> which means they may need to be wiped out, in such a situation... we would prefer for Vox to get most of their land Arnelos> in order to maintain global balance ZargonX> and you've spoken to Vox of this already? Arnelos> now... Arnelos> not on the latest Arnelos> Beta and I *have* spoken before about the possibility, but some time ago Arnelos> besides... Beta is unlikely to talk seriously about it until our victory over GoW seems more likely ZargonX> true Arnelos> though we have approached the subject Arnelos> My main concern is whether Legoland can first live with such an arrangement... so that we prevent a conflict with you. Arnelos> and whether, if it looks like we might be headed for such a thing (which is our goal), we might, at the very least, be able to expect that you will not work against it ZargonX> as I said, the situation you've described would seem amenable to me Arnelos> My main goal is to seek something that I believe is tenable for ALL remaining world powers. Anything short of that will mean another war. ZargonX> we are builders, after all Arnelos> Legoland's interest seems to be primarily preventing a complete GS victory or a complete ND/GoW victory... as either might then turn on Legoland (and likely would) ZargonX> both are concerns, of course ZargonX> it would be foolish not to worry about such things Arnelos> this is why we believe Bob divided between RP, Vox, and a small piece to GS (along with perhaps even ND and/or GoW) would be likable to Legoland ZargonX> it would definately have benefits Arnelos> it sure beats the alternatives ZargonX> for the moment, I can take these thoughts to my countrymen for debate Arnelos> the problem is that while I think both RP and GS are open to this, it is currently unlikely that ND or GoW is Arnelos> they're still playing for keeps... Arnelos> that would be good ZargonX> if such a goal is agreed on, we can work towards it Arnelos> that would be good ZargonX> in whatever way is possible ZargonX> We should meet again in the near future after I've spoken with the others ZargonX> and once the war has a more definitive course in sight Arnelos> yes Arnelos> the war is currently very much in flux Arnelos> we are gaining ground, but it is still an uncertain thing ZargonX> always is, isn't it ZargonX> ? Arnelos> that's how war works ZargonX> we'll just have to make the ISDG war a little more definitive Arnelos> ideally, yes ZargonX> excellent Arnelos> alright, I think we're done for now

	02-10-2003 08:19									#270
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It's an interesting vision they have, but one that ultimately assumes that any team would be willing to just sit back and let another team win. Furthermore, it also pre-supposes that they will survive this war. I am a little curious as to what gives them such a positive outlook on how this war will go for them; perhaps GS is sending in the heavy forces?