10-07-2003 01:30									#181
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240g + 20t sounds good, though maybe we should lower the initial offer to 225g (+20t). Most favored nation and all that.

	10-07-2003 01:40									#182
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BTW, ND does have a surplus iron, so if ND and GoW really are allied against RP, GoW may be getting Riders soon...

On the other hand, they have 2 surplus spices, so it could just be a lux trade.

	10-07-2003 01:43									#183
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Just a note: I care about the "most favoured nation" stuff only as far as there is a price we have to "meet" (like this time with Edu/GS). As soon as we are 1 gold under a price we sold something to someone else, it is - for me - the most favoured nation price. Togas loves nitpicking on the wording (as opposed to the spirit) of treaties, so I have absolutely no problem with that.

Otherwise, the RPers have been the most difficult team to deal with, they have always been extremely greedy in their "offers" and demands (remember what they asked for the no-Sistine clause! or for "helping" Voxes...), have been less helpful than any other team and never treated us as a true partner or ally. So aside from offering them a "better" price whenever there is a price to match, I have absolutely no desire to keep them happy.

They are fortunately so untrustworthy, that I cannot imagine any other Bobian or GS would join them in an attack at us any time soon, so if they dislike or hate us, so be it.

I would still start with sending them a trade agreement with no sum filled in. Let's see how much they value Edu... let's see if they ever learn... and finally go for a really fair deal.

	10-07-2003 03:04									#184
	Remove this text

Ok do not be upset with the messanger but RP is back on the alliance thing I'll post the parts of the log you need.

[16:51] Aidun> I wanted to know if Legoland would like to restart negotiations on the alliance now that the smell of sweating solders training in Chinese barracks can be smelled
[16:52] Nimitz> well I will have to speak to my bosses
[16:52] Nimitz> I only an ambassador
[16:53] Aidun> I know, nor have I the authority to place the royal stamp on documents, nothing has changed in centuries
[16:53] Nimitz> well for me some thing has
[16:54] Nimitz> I'm on administrative leave
[17:00] Aidun> Oh, you were always a good friendly contact with Legoland
[17:01] Nimitz> thanx
[17:03] Aidun> That is why we'd like to restart the negotiations with Legoland. Togas evesn said to me that he would drop the demant that we get your worldmap
[17:04] Nimitz> ok I'll relay it to my suppiors
[17:04] Aidun> please inform them ASAP.
[17:05] Nimitz> will do
[17:05] Aidun> They can PM me whenever they want but it is good if they sent a copy to BigFree and/or Togas too
[17:05] Nimitz> ok I'll put it in the thread
[17:06] Nimitz> they'll see it

	10-07-2003 03:06									#185
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Nimitz, thanks a lot for posting the treaty!

After reading it, I would like to point out one important detail. RPers aren't honouring the wording nor the spirit of the treaty, AS THEY DO NOT RESEARCH ANYTHING AT ALL. So all that stuff about the research cooperation is simply crap, as we are the only party doing research.

And, the "most favoured nation" status is clearly defined as "selling for lower prices". Which means asking even just 1 gold less is fine.

	10-07-2003 03:15									#186
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oh and on the alliance they are kind of groveling so they must be worried.

	10-07-2003 03:23									#187
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Uh, this is just amusing... RPers would even drop the demand for our world map! ROFLMAO... This only illustrates that they no longer believe it would be them helping to defend us, but us helping to defend them.

I suggest we do EDIT: NOT rush with our response and eventually politely tell them we do not see a need, neither a way to create an alliance with them at this moment. 'cause that is how things are - our NAP with ND prevents us from entering an alliance with RPers (like the one we were discussing). First come, first served. RPers were stubborn and unreasonable about the alliance (not that we would have ever intended to sign it anyway) - and here they have it. We made a deal with ND. Simple as that.

Last edited by vondrack on 10-07-2003 at 03:28

	10-07-2003 03:31									#188
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Agreed, such an alliance wouldn't be a good idea, nor would we be able to honor it due to ND's no-landing clause.

	10-07-2003 09:19									#189
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Ok, here's the draft I sent Togas...

quote: People of Espana, In the spirit of friendship, the citizens of Legoland wish to propose the following to you: We, Legoland, shall give the knowledge of Education. In exchange, the people of Espana will provide 230 gold, as well as agree to a 20-turn Non-disclosure, no-resale agreement. We hope that these terms are agreeable to you, and we look forward to continued dealings. ZargonX, President of Legoland

I settled on the 230 figure as a compromise.

	11-07-2003 06:10									#190
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So, after sending the proposal to RP, BigFree contacted me and said that RP couldn't afford to spend any gold right now, as they are prepping for war. So that deal is on hold indefinately.

Next, Aidun contacted me about alliance possibilities...

quote: Aidun> Hi ZargonX> Hello, Aidun! ZargonX> Be with you in one second... Aidun> ready? ZargonX> yes, I'm here ZargonX> sorry, had a phone call ZargonX> anyway, let us discuss the issues at hand ZargonX> So, first off, could you tell me how the situation is looking from your end? Aidun> Well, let me first state that the situation is strange ZargonX> in what manner? Aidun> GoW is acting very strange again. Master Zen first refused to sell chivalry to us, but then agreed for the price of 500 gold. this is ridiculous Aidun> We have not agreed of course ZargonX> that is rather pricy... Aidun> The second thging is that GoW is saying that all is fine, while things aren't fine at all Aidun> yes ZargonX> hmmm... do you fear a GoW attack only, or an ND-GoW attack? Aidun> This price was, as you maybe know, a lot lower for other civs Aidun> Soldiers are trained like mad Aidun> here Aidun> We do not expect ND to attack us, but GoW seems to be on warpath again ZargonX> do you think the attack will come sooner rather than later? Aidun> We think but that GoW is using this strategy: Aidun> They bribe ND to attack us and then all Ansars are on ND's southern border, GoW attacks ND in the north. Then GoW can easily conquer the ND production centers and it is good bye ND. After that It is Good bye Spain. ZargonX> hmm... that would be a plausable scenario Aidun> After that it is either Goodbye Lego or Goodbye GS Aidun> only a matter of time ZargonX> have you spoken to ND at all about this concerns? Aidun> when GoW has entire Bob, they will outnumber you in forces and power in anay way ZargonX> yes, someone controlling all of Bob would be very formidable, indeed ZargonX> I do not think any civs in the world would be interested in seeing a one-civ Bob, by any means Aidun> Yes, we don't have a NAP with ND, but negotiations are going on. ZargonX> that's good to hear Aidun> We have explained this to ND and made an agreement, but it still needs to be discussed by parliaments etc. ZargonX> of course; team concensus is always important Aidun> It is just now that we see a benefit for both of us joining in an alliance. For us the benefit is on the short term, for you on the long term: no Bobian superpower ZargonX> Do you have a specific set of proposals for us? Aidun> We would like to blow the dust of our proto-alliance-agreement but then without the demand of the map of Lego Aidun> As we know that it is difficult for you to give it ZargonX> yes, that is always a sticking point for us ZargonX> so, you would want to build off the original proto-alliance, with new clauses? Aidun> Perhaps we could agree that a ship of us may scout your coastline, but that can also be decided apart form this agreement ZargonX> Well, as always, I will have to confer with the rest of the Lego Senate ZargonX> but if you PM with a draft, we can look it over in short order ZargonX> and then we can work from there Aidun> of course, that is why it can better be left out of the allaince ZargonX> yes, better to deal with more important issues in the main body of the agreement ZargonX> when could you have a draft? Aidun> All we want is a defensive alliance with you, we will come to your aid and you will come to ours. I know that war is not what you are waiting for, but I see a moment coming near that even Legoland will, like the US had to do too in WW2 although they prefered to stay out of it, take the arms and go for war. You can't escape form war, sooner or later you will have to face it. Better sooner than later ZargonX> Yes, war seems to be a sad inevitability in this game, of that we are fully aware ZargonX> and no one wants to see a superpower in the world Aidun> Then we can better have peace and be close allies than opposing and fighting each other. tell that to your teammates. Aidun> Agree ZargonX> I will, of course, pass along the message of peace ZargonX> Do you fear the war will be coming shortly? Aidun> We don't want to see it either. We have stayed out of any conflict until now, even in the Voxian war, we have told ND that we want to stay at peace with them and that we trust them Aidun> BTW, ND told us the same Aidun> so that is positive ZargonX> yes, that is a good sign ZargonX> ND seems a trustworthy team, in general Aidun> I agree with that. In the past we doubted a bit when they got quite poaweful. That was in and after the Luxian time, but time has changed, and they ahev remained trustworthy, far more trustworthyb than GoW ZargonX> ah, the Lux days... time long gone by.... Aidun> We don't exactly know when the war will start. I have tried to predict it, but that is based on just one strategy while there are many. ZargonX> yes, it is always hard to predict these things ZargonX> though, I would imagine those civs with UUs would want to take advantage of them while they are still useful Aidun> yes, but the age of the riders and ansars will not soon pass by. the medieval days seem to take as long as in RL ZargonX> Aidun> ZargonX> Ok, I guess the best way to proceed forward is for RP to create a new draft agreement, and pass it along to us in short order ZargonX> we can review it, and then more on from there Aidun> it is important that we get it passed soon. I will look it up as soon as I can, or someone else of our team will do ZargonX> excellent ZargonX> I will present it to the team as soon as I receive it Aidun> I want to inform you of one other thing ZargonX> yes? Aidun> The strategy of GoW with ND is not the only one. Aidun> How are your contacts with GS ZargonX> GS? Aidun> Sailing over the sea is pretty easy with the Lighthouse ZargonX> You fear they would come to Bob? Aidun> I have strictly confidential info: GS has refused a NAP ZargonX> hrm... I would not think they would be so bold as to try Bob... ZargonX> that is quite an undertaking Aidun> to be exact: a NAP bound to trade deals ZargonX> ah Aidun> but still. You guys don't want to see GS invade Bob too ZargonX> No, not at all ZargonX> GS having controlling interests in Bob is a very scary thought Aidun> but they still have an army that is strong and the borders with Vox hardly need any defense ZargonX> yes, Vox seems to be out of the picture Aidun> unless you'd let them develop in the north. Aidun> Tose land aren't too bad ZargonX> you've seen? Aidun> I can see the coastline of it. We musrt have acquired it by trading WM's ZargonX> yes... the coast looks nice... ZargonX> it's not so nice once you get off the beach :P Aidun> ah poor voxians Aidun> ZargonX> anyway, I'm sorry to run, but I have some RL business I must take care of ZargonX> I will back a little later though, but I suppose that's quite late for you Aidun> Ok, I'll PM you ASAP ZargonX> sounds good to me! Aidun> make sure your parliament agrees ZargonX> I will be ready for it ZargonX> I will present it to them and we shall discuss it as urgent ZargonX> so, until later! ZargonX> it's been a pleasure! Aidun> cya Aidun> to me too

	11-07-2003 06:12									#191
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My impressions of the chat.

-RP is scared. And GoW's actions are pretty suspect. The backstab of ND is possible, but seems unlikely to me.
-RP is still obsessed with mapping us somehow. They are willing to give up the WM clause, but they still want a coast map.
-The GS issue; I don't think GS is planning to invade now, but they probably don't want to get involved with NAPs. I wouldn't put too much weight in that prospect.

	11-07-2003 06:23									#192
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yes, RP is either scared or it is a very devious ruse (more likely the first one)

RP has ALWAYS been obsessed about getting our map

We should talk with GS and GoW - try to get NAPs with both (which ironically if they are wanting to war on Bob they will be very willing to give). I still think we should pursue an anti-Bob invasion defense pact idea with GS.

	11-07-2003 06:28									#193
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Zargon, why do you tell Aidun to send us a draft when we have already agreed upon that we are not entering an alliance with RPers? Would it be not better to tell them, no delays? This just raises their hopes - how are we going to look when they send us the draft (which will clearly read: DEFENSIVE ALLIANCE, as indicated in the chat) and we respond: sorry, we cannot enter a defensive allaince with you, as we cannot land on Bob...?

	11-07-2003 08:01									#194
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Well Vondrack, frankly I'm interested in seeing what they propose. If I tell them an outright NO, we get no more info out of them, and probably permanently sour relations with them for the rest of the game. If they give us a proposal that we can haggle over for a good while, ultimately rejecting, then we've learned more about their situation, and not come off as completely insensitive to them.

	11-07-2003 12:18									#195
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Well Vondrack, frankly I'm interested in seeing what they propose.

Placing my bet: we will get exactly the treaty that was on the table months ago, but without the clause about our world map.

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX If I tell them an outright NO, we get no more info out of them, and probably permanently sour relations with them for the rest of the game. If they give us a proposal that we can haggle over for a good while, ultimately rejecting, then we've learned more about their situation, and not come off as completely insensitive to them.

Ummm... as if our relations could sour any more...

Nevermind, it is probably a matter of personal taste.

	11-07-2003 18:19									#196
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And here's the draft...

quote: El tratado de defensa Hispano - Legolandico / Legoland - Spain Mutual Protection Treaty Article I Definition of the territory The territory of Spain is defined as all land inside Spain's cultural borders and all lands on the continent named Bob south of the Spanish city of Toledo. The territory of Legoland is defined as all land on Legos Major. Article II Redefinition of the territory Either party may propose to redefine their national territory and the change shall be effective upon the agreement of the other party. Definition of the territory of both parties may be changed if: New territories will be found, under the condition that these new territories are fully explored and unsettled by any other nation; New settlements, that are outside of the land defined in Article I, are founded; New territory, that is outside of the land defined in Article I, is accuired in any way; Territory, that is part of the land defined in Article I, is lost in any way. Article III Causes that activate the alliance If another nation settles on the land that is defined in Article I, while the party that claims this land has informed an official of the settling nation, that they claim those lands, both the offended party and the other party in the treaty will declare war on the settling nation, if the party that claims these land requests this, unless the alliance can persuade the settling nation from either evacuating or handing the settlement over to the alliance member whose territory is occupied, or retreat in any other way. If any violation of the territorial integrity of the territory of either party, as defined in Article I, is being conducted, both parties will declare war on the atacking nation, if the attacked party requests this. Article IV Non-settlement & Non-agression ageement Neither party shall settle in the territoriy that the other party has claimed to be his as stated in Article I. Neither party shall enter the claimed territory of the other party without prior approval. Also neither party shall declare war on the other. Article V Duration of the Treaty The Treaty shall have a lenth of 30 turns. It shall be effective from 70 BC (turn nr. 124) and expire in 380 AD (turn 154). The Treaty may be extended for any amount of turns upon the agreement of both parties. Article VI Settlement of any war Since both parties will declare war at the exact same time on any invading party, both parties will commit themselves to end the war at the same time. No separate peace treaties shall be made. Justino Togas I, King of Spain

	11-07-2003 19:31									#197
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OK, I have won my bet.

Have you learned anything interesting, Zargon?

j/k

Now, what do we do with this... ahem... "treaty"? It is exactly the same treaty we had our doubts many many turns ago - and we are 100% sure we are not going to sign it now, with our rather fine relations with both GoW and ND, sour relations with RPers and them being the most likely target of the next war,... so, what do we tell RPers and how?

There is one thing I should point out - the treaty only obliges both parties to declare war, not commit any troops, so once we pull this card, we should expect RPers to counter by agreeing to that we would not be expected to commit troops to help them, but at least to declare war (read: stop trading) on whoever might attack them. Which we do not wish to do either, but is more difficult to explain while sticking to a friendly note.

	12-07-2003 00:58									#198
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FYI: Aidun asked me if the draft had arrived and I told him it had been posted in our forum.

GG, comment later.

	12-07-2003 02:34									#199
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The basic problem is that it seems to be one-sided. In all likelihood, we will not be invaded, but RP will.

As far as an excuse, I would be very up front. We see the risk of a Legoland invasion to be very small and we are willing to take that risk.

	12-07-2003 04:19									#200
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Another concern we had the first time was the real possibility that RP would make peace before we could - leaving us holding the bag - or declare war and then do nothing (like they have in every Bob war so far...)

While I was interested in seeing what RP would send, I agree that it is rather one-sided - I mean what do we get out of this deal? If any of the Bob civs invade us , it is very possible that we can get the other Bob civ(s) and probably GS to join with us against our attackers, which would likely overwhelm any possible invaders...

This is really a "Legoland help us please" treaty by RP and it is awfully tempting to treat it as such. However, that would likely completely alienate us from RP -refusing to sign the treaty might do so anyway (not that is necessarily a bad thing of course )

My suggestion: stall and see what happens , we don't have to do anything until someone happens on Bob (and it sure looks like that is going to be soon...) In the meanwhile, we should chat with our more friendly nations, to see which way the wind is blowing with those civs... especially GS and GoW and try and sign NAPs with them)

	13-07-2003 10:11									#201
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Aidun tried to talk to me in #tabemono earlier today (however, I was gone and had accidentally left myself on-line. sorry Sharpe!):

quote: How's the status of your parliament? Has it already approved the treaty? You know, things are getting "exciting" here

	14-07-2003 15:47									#202
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OK, time to tell the RPers to stuff it.

Here is a draft of what I would like to PM them with:

quote: Your Majesty, Honorable Ambassador, The People of Spain, Regretfully, we have to inform you that after thoroughly discussing and considering your defense pact proposal, we do not feel we are able to sign it while honoring its spirit. Other treaties we signed in the past prevent us from actually assisting you in a war conflict effectively. Instead of signing a treaty that we would know would be nothing more than a hollow shell, we would rather not sign it at all and help you with whatever troubles you may encounter on a case by case basis. With the best regards, vondrack, the FAM of Legoland

	14-07-2003 18:30									#204
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Looks good, Vondrack. Though, I'm sure resisting the urge to just type "stuff it, RP!" as tough :P

	14-07-2003 18:37									#205
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You bet.

I kept postponing the draft for two or three days, 'cause I had no idea how to write what I had to write ("stuff it, RPers!") without insulting them directly and without prompting further negotiations. Though I'm quite sure they will get back to us anyway, inquiring about the nature of our obligations that keep us from assisting them "effectively"... how much do we tell them? Shall we mention ND?

	14-07-2003 19:49									#206
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Oh they will be asking for sure. They may be worried that we are in some Pact with the other civs (against them). We need to reassure them that no pact exist.

	14-07-2003 20:28									#207
	Remove this text

We should plainly tell them that we have a treaty that forbids us to land on Bob (without mentioning names), and thus we cannot help them with troops in a possible war.

	14-07-2003 20:44									#208
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Yes, I would not mention who, exactly, our agreement is with, but just that we are barred from landing on Bob for the forseeable future. If they want to know more than that, they're free to ask, but who says we ever have to answer

	15-07-2003 00:32									#209
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Yes, mention the treaty but not who we signed it with.

	15-07-2003 01:20									#210
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Short message from Aidun; they really seem to think this war is coming up fast...

quote: ZargonX, I am going on a holiday tomorrow. I have postyed a message in oir forum that I will be off from the 14th of July (tomorrow) until the 10th of August. In between I am only one day at home. As you understand, I wont be able to fulfil my duties as ambassador to your team during this holiday. You can finalyze the job of the Treaty with either Togas or BigFree. I advise you to that quickly, we can see the swords of GoW already glittering from a distance and it won't take long for the war to start. I wish you success with Legoland, may our teams compete in the final race. greetings, Aidun