07-03-2003 03:20									#91
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Better to live somewhere else if you can.

	07-03-2003 03:22									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel well, maybe in Loisiana it IS a rational suspicion. In any case, this is very wrong, AND dangerous.

The first time I heard of it I thought that it could lend itself to abuse. It was an example of the different thinking here ie You have a right to defend yourself and your home and that doesnt mean you jump through hoops before doing so.

	07-03-2003 03:25									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel the fact they were trying to mug him, and he drew a gun is a pretty good sign. they should've raised their arms and stopped.

Given that he kept firing at the ones who were running away, every last one of them would have died had he done that.

	07-03-2003 03:25									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Spence, you're scaring me.

The wise man avoids confrontation but wins those that occur. You're safe so long as you dont try to hurt me or mine.

	07-03-2003 03:26									#95
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I'm afraid of very little. I know how to fight with and without weapons. If you want to win (and live) you hit first and hard and you dont stop. Your naivte is that you dont know that.

Oh yes. No one who'd shoot someone in the back is afraid of anything. No sir.

If you wheren't afraid, you'd confront the person instead of blowing a hole through his head before he even sees you.

	07-03-2003 03:26									#96
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Just how is my shooting someone breaking into my house pre-meditated?

If you have the intent to kill and there are less forceful options reasonably available to you to protect yourself then you're guilty of premeditated murder.

	07-03-2003 03:26									#97
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH The wise man avoids confrontation but wins those that occur. You're safe so long as you dont try to hurt me or mine.

Or give the impression that I might do so?

Great.

	07-03-2003 03:27									#98
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*gives Spencer a big manly hug*

	07-03-2003 03:27									#99
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I concur, Spencer. Get the, err, funk, outta my face and house.

	07-03-2003 03:32									#100
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH The wise man avoids confrontation but wins those that occur. You're safe so long as you dont try to hurt me or mine.

This is almost a direct quote from a John Wayne movie - showing the huge influence Wayne had on American men.

	07-03-2003 03:36									#101
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Frogger:
Ok, so I guess we can agree on "freeze, or I'll shoot"

Spencer:

quote: I'm afraid of very little. I know how to fight with and without weapons. If you want to win (and live) you hit first and hard and you dont stop. Your naivte is that you dont know that.

Are you aware of the chances that you'll make a mistake, and will kill a person who doesn't deserve it?

quote: The first time I heard of it I thought that it could lend itself to abuse. It was an example of the different thinking here ie You have a right to defend yourself and your home and that doesnt mean you jump through hoops before doing so.

What's the hoop? verbal warning? warning shot? oh wow, we sure try too hard too keep people from dying, don't we.

	07-03-2003 03:50									#102
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No hoops.

Flee and call for help, but if that is not possible:

Fire first, from cover, without warning. Take out mobility, vision, and ability to retaliate.

Then call for clean up.



Che - glad you are all right.

	07-03-2003 03:54									#103
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Sten: is this the required procedure in these cases? I don't think that running away for help is the correct, if the owner of the house is armed. I think it would be better if the owner of the house would lock the intruder in a room or something.

	07-03-2003 04:02									#104
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quote: If you have the intent to kill and there are less forceful options reasonably available to you to protect yourself then you're guilty of premeditated murder.

Spot on. Premeditation means purposeful or knowing intent to kill. It can only be reduced to manslaughter by provocation that places you in an enraged state, so you had no intent, but was merely reflexive. Hardly any court would say that breaking and entering is enough for provocation.

	07-03-2003 04:05									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Oh yes. No one who'd shoot someone in the back is afraid of anything. No sir. If you wheren't afraid, you'd confront the person instead of blowing a hole through his head before he even sees you.

Perhaps you cant read. At no point did I say I would shoot someone in the back. But just so we're clear on it, to protect myself and my family I sure would.

I notice you have a french flag, no wonder you know nothing about defending yourself.

	07-03-2003 04:12									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: If you have the intent to kill and there are less forceful options reasonably available to you to protect yourself then you're guilty of premeditated murder. Spot on. Premeditation means purposeful or knowing intent to kill. It can only be reduced to manslaughter by provocation that places you in an enraged state, so you had no intent, but was merely reflexive. Hardly any court would say that breaking and entering is enough for provocation.

See what watching Law&Order can get you?

There's a whole generation of sofa lawyers around now.

	07-03-2003 04:13									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger If you have the intent to kill and there are less forceful options reasonably available to you to protect yourself then you're guilty of premeditated murder.

Sorry thats not premeditated unless you think that I read the future, know that you're going to break in, and kill you.

What if I dont kill you with a gun? What if I stick a knife under your ribs into your heart? What if I dont bother with a weapon at all? Of course there's more risk to me but its the same result.

	07-03-2003 04:13									#108
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Haven't you seen any of those Halloween movies? You gotta shot a bad guy, like 20 times, or they attack you when you turn around!


I sure as hell would shoot an intruder in the back without warning. I've got a family and limited hand-to-hand skills.

	07-03-2003 04:15									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse *gives Spencer a big manly hug*

I'm not sure how to take that One of the best soldiers I knew was an Aussie infantry Captain.

	07-03-2003 04:16									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Or give the impression that I might do so? Great.

I think its a pretty good assumption that if you're breaking into my house in the middle of the night that you're not delivering flowers.

	07-03-2003 04:17									#111
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quote: Sorry thats not premeditated unless you think that I read the future, know that you're going to break in, and kill you.

Read Imran's comment. Premeditation hinges on the intent to kill. It need not be formed a year, day, hour or even a minute prior to the act. It simply needs to be in the mind of the criminal at the moment he commits his crime. And he's an actual law student. They teach you about intent in the first few days there...

	07-03-2003 04:17									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse This is almost a direct quote from a John Wayne movie - showing the huge influence Wayne had on American men.

Thats Marrion Morrison to you matey! Dont I recall an incident with you chasing a car with some idiots while your kids were with you?

	07-03-2003 04:18									#113
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quote: There's a whole generation of sofa lawyers around now

Of course a jury might simply reject premeditation (because they sympathize with the killer) and go to the default, which is 2nd Degree Murder. It would definetly not be manslaughter, because provocation requires (in common law states) either 1) battery or a fight, 2) adultery, 3) illegal arrest. States that follow the MPC would go for manslaughter for a severe emotional disturbance.

No matter what why you slice it, killing a person breaking and entering before he even notices you would be dealt with some serious jail time (and most likely a murder conviction).

	07-03-2003 04:19									#114
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So get a good lawyer!!

Just because you shoot somebody and they die doesn't prove intent.

	07-03-2003 04:23									#115
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quote: Just because you shoot somebody and they die doesn't prove intent.

That isn't the argument. The argument is shooting someone after you've realized the situtation and determined that you will shoot the person. That IS intent (the requisit mens rea, if you will).

However, it can be mitigated if you were under severe emotional distress (which basically means in a fight or seeing your SO committing adultery).

Basically there is no way that you will avoid jail time, even if the jury ignores the law and decides it is voluntary manslaughter.

	07-03-2003 04:23									#116
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Firing the gun while it is pointed at somebody provides a prima facia (can't spell the things I hear on TV) case for intent. You have to prove that there was another reason you pulled the trigger than an intent to kill, or that killing was the minimum necessary force reasonably available to the shooter.

	07-03-2003 04:25									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger quote: Sorry thats not premeditated unless you think that I read the future, know that you're going to break in, and kill you. Read Imran's comment. Premeditation hinges on the intent to kill. It need not be formed a year, day, hour or even a minute prior to the act. It simply needs to be in the mind of the criminal at the moment he commits his crime. And he's an actual law student. They teach you about intent in the first few days there...

Yes, I think that may be a correct definition. The question is whether: a southern prosecutor would be stupid enough to bring such a case and whether a southern jury would convict. The answer to both is no.

I have no way of knowing whether that person breaking into my house is armed, is the night stalker, or what. Personally, I'll shoot first and deal with the 'law' later at least I'll be alive to do so.

	07-03-2003 04:27									#118
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prima facie, Frogger, which means enough to go to the jury.

You do pick up a lot on Law and Order .

And crouching behind something pointing at the burgler and then pulling the trigger is enough for intent... and it'll definetly be 2nd degree murder, at least.

	07-03-2003 04:27									#119
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So is there any defense? What if you think they have a gun? Or if they say something threatening? Or if they are approaching a child?


I guess I would still take the risk of jail time over getting overpowered and watching somebody hurt my kids...

	07-03-2003 04:28									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No matter what why you slice it, killing a person breaking and entering before he even notices you would be dealt with some serious jail time (and most likely a murder conviction).

Perhaps you're forgetting the old man in Houston who shot a tourist on his front porch who was trying to ask for directions. There was no prosecution because none was possible. Textbook law is one thing, the application of the law is another.