07-03-2003 04:30									#121
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quote: It occured at a place I have to go past all the time. The police didn't find the guy, and even if they did, it's a 2nd class misdemeanor, i.e., no jail time. So now I'm paranoid (rightfully so) that it could happen again.

1) live in fear
2) get a gun and use it to threaten or wound, then live in fear some more as you have just embittered a gang.
3)shoot to kill, ending the fear, but putting you in legal and perhaps moral (unlikely, unless you have somethn against self-defense) trouble.
4)move, which would suck considering you finally got a job, among other things

	07-03-2003 04:32									#122
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quote: So is there any defense? What if you think they have a gun? Or if they say something threatening? Or if they are approaching a child?

Self-defense or accident are the only defenses to a death that will get you off scot free (even insanity will put you in a mental hospital). Though even an accident, if you were acting recklessly, will get you for murder (if you were negligent and someone died, then you can get involuntary manslaughter and avoid jail time but have to pay a fine).

If they point a gun at you, then can shoot, because it is in self-defense. There is a threat of you being killed.

If they say something threatening that would make an ordinary person fear for their life, then that would be good enough for self-defense as well. Same with him approaching the kid.

quote: The question is whether: a southern prosecutor would be stupid enough to bring such a case and whether a southern jury would convict. The answer to both is no.

You would be very, very, very suprised, Spencer.

	07-03-2003 04:36									#123
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quote: Perhaps you're forgetting the old man in Houston who shot a tourist on his front porch who was trying to ask for directions. There was no prosecution because none was possible. Textbook law is one thing, the application of the law is another.

And a travesty of justice is another.

	07-03-2003 04:56									#124
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Good ole southern hospitality

	07-03-2003 05:00									#125
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I don't recall that Houston event, personally.
It speaks more for mental health in general, than perceived "Southern hospitality".

	07-03-2003 05:08									#126
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Perhaps you're forgetting the old man in Houston who shot a tourist on his front porch who was trying to ask for directions.

I'm sure they're using that one in their tourist promotions

	07-03-2003 05:17									#127
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Perhaps you're forgetting the old man in Houston who shot a tourist on his front porch who was trying to ask for directions. There was no prosecution because none was possible.

So the southern (in)justice system still ignores the law when it likes the defendant and/or dislikes the victim - good to know.

quote: Textbook law is one thing, the application of the law is another.

Textbook law is the only law that should matter, period.

	07-03-2003 05:22									#128
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First, let me say, "Owwwww."

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand So how about it? Personal shopper for the day?

Okay.

quote: Though "screaming racial epithets in my head" is odd.

When something like this happens, all your worst tendencies tend to bubble up from the dark recesses of your psyche. The fact these kids were Black is irrelevent (or maybe not, if they went after me because I was white, which I suspect is the case), but I was a little shy of strange Black folks today. In my head all the worst things I could say kept popping up, even though I knew better. I also wanted to cry and scream and beat them to a bloody pulp with a baseball bat.

quote: Originally posted by rah Nothing like being a crime victim to move you a little right.

What's the quote? "A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged." Hell, I wanted to tell the cop if they caught the guy just to drop him off the Hart Bridge (which is so tall that ocean going cargo vessels can sail underneath without a drawbridge). Culpae mea.

quote: Originally posted by MikeH No jail time for attempted robbery and assault? Really? Bizarre.

Can't prove he was attempting to rob me because he didn't say, "Give me your money or try and grab my bike."

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Actually, what most europeans wont know is whats really lucky is that the shithead didnt just shoot Che for the bike.

That thought has given me shivers. If he'd had a knife or a pipe or a rock. . . . I'm sure he was surprised I stayed on the bike and didn't even falter. If I'd been in Chicago, I'd have been on my guard and he never would have gotten close to me (people tried). But this is really a nice part of town, but I forgot that the apartment complex next to mine is a den of crime. The funny thing is, I'd been walking or biking past these guys for a year and a half now, and I never had any trouble.

quote: Originally posted by Ned Honestly, Che, I am sorry this happened. But, throughout my entire life the left has responded to crime by blaming it on white, capitalist racist oppression.

The left is rather naive or angry when it comes to issues of crime and police. Many people experience the heavy hand of the law when they aren't doing anything illegal or wrong. This angers both the people to whom it happens and people to whom justice is a major issue. The latter, I don't think, go far enough in their demand for justice. I have believed for a long time that criminals deserve to be prosecuted and jailed and that the police should be in high crime areas in droves.

Criminals prey on working people every bit as much as their bosses do. That doesn't mean that I want the police to go around beating the crap outta people (despite my current emotions in the matter) or should be profiling people or jut grabbing anyone. I also think that people leading lives of crime will continue to be a burden on society until we figure out a better way of rehabilitating them. Sending people to jail to become angrier and more vicious criminals is a losing agenda for both us and the criminals.

quote: Originally posted by Japher Kind of like Seinfeld was always even. You get a job, you get jumped. It all has a way of evening out doesn't it?

Don't think that hadn't occured to me. I still come out a head.


Thanks for your concern everyone. I feel a lot better now than I did even this morning. Don't get me wrong, I'm still in a bit of pain and I feel like I've got a pudding on my face, but emotionally I'm a lot better. I had to go to the place I was attacked this very morning to catch a ride (we had set it up in advance) so I had to confront my demons right away. Plus, the shiner made a great conversational piece at work "Yeah, but you should see the other five guys. "

	07-03-2003 05:42									#129
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quote:
Originally posted by SlowwHand
So how about it? Personal shopper for the day?


Okay.




Cool ! Have you any kind of preferences or guidelines?
Well, just pm me. Won't clog the thread.

	07-03-2003 06:20									#130
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Che, here in Oregon it's easy to get a consealed weapons permit if you're not a criminal. Why not try where you live? That way if they do get you down someday, you can fight for your life. Before you shoot them tell them you are a leftist and will feel their pain. That way they will die knowing that you care.

Sten, if you do the things you discribe you will likely go to jail, meet Bubba, etc. Did you know that many police carry a clean, (no prints on gun or bullets, no excess oil to make glove prints) unregistered weapon on them in case they ever shoot an unarmed man? Using gloves they can put it in his hand, really get his prints all over it. Forefinger on the trigger... the smart ones even do thumb and forefinger on the bullets. (For a revolver) I've heard that they are very careful not to get their own prints on anything. They tell other cops, 'just say you saw a dark shape', so the stories don't get fouled up. I suppose if it happened in their house they would say the same to their family. Also, that they guy didn't get a shot off. The policeman can make it look like he did get a shot off by firing one before putting it in the guys hand, but that really just complicates things.

Also, a cop once told me to fire as few shots as possible. The more shots, the worse the jury thinks you're a wild, gun toting crazy man. Just fire enough shots so that yours is the only story. Don't use special loads that will tend to show intent to kill.

	07-03-2003 06:23									#131
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Fire twice, to make sure of a kill.

	07-03-2003 07:34									#132
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For some points of interest... coming from a good friend of mine that is a NC State Trooper... If a person breaks into your home, whether they have a gun or not , you can shoot them as long as you can state that you were in fear of your life.

No need to have that extra gun around to stick in his hand or no need for him to have said anything to you or motioned in any way. As long as you state you feared for your life or the life of your family, it is self defense.

But here is the kicker.... if you do shoot... shoot to kill, so that there will be one story and only that one story.... yours.

One last thing he told me... if you shoot him on the front porch before he actually enters, then you better drag him inside to show he actually made it into breaking into your home.

	07-03-2003 07:52									#133
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand So how about it? Personal shopper for the day? Okay. Cool ! Have you any kind of preferences or guidelines? Well, just pm me. Won't clog the thread.

Ooh, I forgot, the snakeskin boots. Cool stuff.

	07-03-2003 08:01									#134
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Zkribbler, you may be refering to Bernie Getz (nerdy white guy) who was prosecuted for shooting 2 or 3 of 4 'black youths' who he claimed were planning on mugging him. He had been mugged before and was fearful of riding the subway so he carried an illegal handgun. They admitted they were '****in' with him. Later on it came out that he had shot one or two in the back. He was vilified and prosecuted. He was acquitted by his NY peers in the first trial but tried under some other statute later and convicted in some upstate court. The punks he shot were virtually held up as heros. The fact that they all had convictions for assault prior to this incident and that at least 2 of them were later imprisoned for rape and murder and was conveniently forgotten.

That's the "Subway Vigilante." Supposedly, when he pulled the gun, the black youths fled, but he shot a couple in the back. Not sure if that's true or not.

	07-03-2003 08:03									#135
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quote: Originally posted by OldWarrior_42 For some points of interest... coming from a good friend of mine that is a NC State Trooper... If a person breaks into your home, whether they have a gun or not , you can shoot them as long as you can state that you were in fear of your life. No need to have that extra gun around to stick in his hand or no need for him to have said anything to you or motioned in any way. As long as you state you feared for your life or the life of your family, it is self defense. But here is the kicker.... if you do shoot... shoot to kill, so that there will be one story and only that one story.... yours. One last thing he told me... if you shoot him on the front porch before he actually enters, then you better drag him inside to show he actually made it into breaking into your home.

Theres my point. Law students can regurgitate whatever text-book law they want, but it a question of what constitutes self defense. The old man in Houston was acting in what he believed was self defense. In the south you are allowed a greater leeway as to what constitutes self defense, especially in your home. Why dont you check that out Imran? Number of shootings in self defense of a home and how many of those were prosecuted. One of the things that I've found true here is that there are almost no burglaries. Murders yes, but no burglaries. The answer is very simple. Most people are armed and the crooks know that if they break in they're dead.

	07-03-2003 08:04									#136
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Get a gun.

Let the racist thoughts run their course, but dont swing to far to the left with your thinking and think somehow it is your fault, or that black people are actually superior. It is quite common for crime victims to begin to empathize and then admire their attackers during the healing process.... don't let this happen to you.

Next time you read about someone killing an invader or someone trying to steal their car, rejoice at the demise of another. Believe me, people who hurt and steal are nothing like you. They are the element that we can all do without.

	07-03-2003 08:09									#137
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Che, I'd say forget the gun. If you're not commited to using a weapon (and most people aren't even willing to use their fist) its a liability. Take another route to work.

	07-03-2003 08:23									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu An American is attacked in the street. 3 or 4 guys tell him to get a gun. Not one suggests that he should call the cops.

If you'd stop trolling long enough to read the begining of the thread you'd find that Che did call the cops but it didn't do him a bit of good.

Che: I'm sorry it hear about your miss fortune man. I'm glade to see you're all right. BTW just tell your boss the truth; that you got mugged and I'm sure they will understand and won't judge you. I hope the cops catch that ***** so he won't be able to rob anyone else.

	07-03-2003 08:27									#139
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Che, I agree with Spencer. Forget the gun. You also might want to discuss the issue of routes with the police. They may have a good idea where the muggers roam and where they do not.

What we really need in the US is better law enforcement. We need cops patrolling high crime areas. The stories we here that whole areas of certain cities are virtually run by drug dealing youth street gangs is unacceptable.

	07-03-2003 08:55									#140
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Che; at lease you are OK. Ned had the best idea. Go with it. And yes if you are not familiar with a fire arms don't get one, because you could get hurt.
Another idea if you can, get to know a few of these guys at lease to say hi and bye and maybe they will tell their buddy to leave you alone.

	07-03-2003 09:01									#141
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Take another route to work.

Best advice on the whole thread

	07-03-2003 09:05									#142
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quote: Can't prove he was attempting to rob me because he didn't say, "Give me your money or try and grab my bike."

Just say he did. Who do you think would have more credibility: you or the punk?

	07-03-2003 09:40									#143
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

heh....I got jumped awhile back in HS. Fought back like mad, still got my ass kicked. Learned a valuable lesson, never be somewhere your not supposed to be and doing something your not supposed to be doing (smoking weed and cutting class)

	07-03-2003 09:49									#144
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Get a handgun and pull an American History X the next time. I've heard the teeth sound rushes endorphines

	07-03-2003 09:53									#145
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The Thing is, punks and thugs feel stronger in groups and numbers. I know how it feels myself, thats what gives most of these creeps the courage to pull **** like this. Whats the word im lookin for? Oh ya "Frontin". Showin off for bullshit glory in front of your friends.


Sad....sad....sad.. Che You should take a baseball bat and beat them to bloody pulps.

	07-03-2003 10:44									#146
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Faded Glory's back!!! Welcome back, dude!

Sorry to hear you cop it, Che, but what is it they say over there? "A conservative is a liberal who got mugged 10 minutes ago"? Still keeping the faith?

Nah, i feel for you, mate. Years ago i awoke drunk to find people kicking me in the head. I was quite surprised and disappointed to find that the culprits were white guys like me. Just goes to show that for every crim who was a victim in their youth, there's another who's just an arsehole!

Still, it put a few things in perspective, though. Hey, we survived, didn't we?

	07-03-2003 10:55									#147
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Sorry to hear about this, Che.

I felt like grabbing my sword just reading about it.

	07-03-2003 11:08									#148
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Sad....sad....sad.. Che You should take a baseball bat and beat them to bloody pulps.

you might wanna think about the consequence before you do that. Long long time ago, when I was in Jr. High, I started a fight with a couple of people and got jumped. I wasnt satisfied with the fight so invited them to meet me at the park where I brought a baseball bat. I got suspended for quite awhile.

I'd imagine as an adult you would be facing a steeper punishment.

	07-03-2003 11:17									#149
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quote: Law students can regurgitate whatever text-book law they want, but it a question of what constitutes self defense.

Um.. I have no problem with what OW said. IF you can say you were in fear for your life, you can say it was self-defense. Since when did you say that? You just said you'd get your gun and shoot whoever you saw. With that story (ie, without any lying), you'd be guilty of murder.

I believe the civil case that establishes that you can only use deadly force if you are threatened with deadly force comes from Mississippi. South enough for ya?

	07-03-2003 11:39									#150
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You have a sword, Che?

Seriously, sorry about that. It's never happened to me but I sympathize.