11-03-2003 19:57									#31
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Agreed. But we may need to reconsider our trading alliance.

	11-03-2003 22:50									#32
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What did we need of GOW?

	11-03-2003 23:10									#33
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What I was proposing is that you broach the three way trading idea (as outlined in my letter to ND) to GoW.

BUT - now I think we need to reconsider, given ND's clear threat to stay off the continent. We may be better getting close to RP who have nothing to fear from us. And that would mean switching to currency and committing them to a trade now. We would then have to deal individually with GoW, and convince them to trade for currency with us and not Neu D - which will probably be ruffling a few feathre even before we get over there.

	12-03-2003 03:27									#34
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I concur, let's try to "snuggle" up to RP instead of ND.

	12-03-2003 03:36									#35
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I just don't like the idea of facing a threat the second we get off the boat. If we make the deal with ND, this essentialy protects us for 20 turns. The amount of time until the trade is complete. by this time we could possibly come to some agreement with ND.
But I am new here, and still know little to nothing about the map and our situation so I will go along with what you say. Just an Idea

	12-03-2003 06:49									#36
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Hmmm - understand the points being made here. I agree it would be nice to get off the boat without a fight. My concern is that if we commit to a deal where we give NeuD something now (ie Philosophy), and then expect a later trade that goes in our favour (ie poly for currency and 30 gold), we may not see the second half of the trade. Then again - NeuD seem like a very honorable bunch - but this may push their limit. A lot will depend on whether they see our staying off the continent as a condition for the deal. Hopefully they will not twig to that.

And I am thinking about RP again. If you read the chat, they sure talk and act timid. They refer to the others as 'sharks'. They stayed out of the Lux conflict completely. And they are worried about the middle ages and the uu's of GoW and ND. I'm not sure we can count on them for much. Diss, Jon, what was your take?

	12-03-2003 07:21									#37
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I agree full-heartedly with Beta's comments concerning expanding onto the "continent."

Since ND has made the, well for lack of a better word, "demand" that we stay off the landmass; and we need to expand over to it - Should we:

A. Just ignore and not answer ND's last correspondence concerning this issue...or

B. should we at at least acknowlege their statement and say that we can not commit to that promise?

If we do option "B," it will definately tip our hand that that is exactly what we're planning on doing.

If we choose option "A" and ignore their last "request," this should buy us some time, but they will not be happy to see a Vox city on their landmass - of course, this is also assuming that they would be able to see us when we first "set up house."

Any thoughts?

	12-03-2003 08:05									#38
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or reply and say we wil

go for alliance with GoW (or GS...)

and go over anyway?

Jon Miller

	12-03-2003 08:18									#39
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If jon's is option c, then I go for a or c.

I don't like b as they may rush a unit to the point we plan on landing on.

But if it is going to be c, I don't want to give them philosophy this turn which would be the first part of the previous deal. We now need to get a deal with RP and GoW for tech trades. Otherwise we go another turn with research turned off (essentially - 10%).

One thing to think about - doing the trade with NeuD may actually buy us time and goodwill for the next 20 turns or so which we could use - and we can blather on about this and that and everyone's right to open terrain. With a few cities with walls and immortals, I don't think they will be in much of a position right now to do much about it.

I would rather have that than outright alienate them in the trading arena, and have to face hostility right off the boat as macy has pointed out.

So - I go with Witt's option a, with lots of smooth talking. Which is really like a.2.

	12-03-2003 08:28									#40
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I go for A. what they don't know can't hurt US.

	12-03-2003 08:30									#41
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I say we try more diplomacy.

We plead them for the opportunity to at least build one city where we planned it. We let them know how short we are on room.

I'd rather do that than just plop a city down.

And I do not think we can count on RP in any kind of war. We have no alliance as of now. And I doubt they will agree to one- esp. if we cross the continent. The risk of war would be too great for them.

P.S. how did they get the idea that we wanted to expand over there? RP mentioned it as well. How did they know we are planning on expanding over there?

	12-03-2003 08:39									#42
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Well, they might have come upon this realization when they found out that we have neighbors to our south...and now that Lux is no more, there is a big hole where they used to be...

Or GS might have given them the heads-up.

	12-03-2003 08:41									#43
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Did we or did we not let GS know that we are planning to expand across the straight?

	12-03-2003 08:43									#44
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we did

they suggested it in fact

Jon Miller

	12-03-2003 08:44									#45
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(not that we weren't thinking it at the time)

Jon Miller

	12-03-2003 08:48									#46
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Well, the "leak" could have come from GS - but I really doubt it since if the other players found out about it, and were able to "block" our settlement plans, we would be back to square one - looking in GS's direction for new land to settle. So leaking our plans to the other players would in all likelihood be detrimental to GS's future plans (what ever they might be)...

	12-03-2003 08:49									#47
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Man - this forum is hopping tonight.

I suspect they put 2 and 2 together. They know we are separated by merely a strait. we have told them that. And they know that map making is going around. And they will suspect we got all kinds of info out of Lux as to the lay of the land.

So - what about Diss' idea of being up-front about it? We can argue that we have as much right to the space as they do. The land across the strait was never Luxes to start with - so they should have no claim on it.

	12-03-2003 08:56									#48
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Actually, I thinking we should just be quiet about the whole thing. If the other players continue to press us for an answer, we can say "no comment" or "plans have already been initiated concerning Vox expansion, any delay without good reason would be detrimental to Vox as a whole" Both of these responses are vague enough (ie, not giving any info as to exactly where we plan on settling)...and we still remain honest with them.

I just don't like agreeing to an agreement with another team knowing full well that we will not be abiding by the agreement.

	12-03-2003 08:58									#49
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If we are totally upfront and challenge them concerning who has rights to "open" land, they might (and most likely will) race units over to our side just to keep tabs on us.

	12-03-2003 09:28									#50
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I'm with Witt on this one. Diss - I'm afraid if we try diplomatic persuasion, we won't get anywhere, and they will race to the point. The plan had us building on turn 8 from last turn - so they or Gow may still show up to claim the point between now and the. Or neuD may press us for an answer on the question - in which case we will have to come up with something along the lines of what Witt has suggested. But we will not be dishonest.

	12-03-2003 09:29									#51
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ahh

maybe I am, just playing to much diplomacy (I am italy, austria and turkey are allied, it sucks)

Jon Miller

	12-03-2003 09:30									#52
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Just noticed this in my e-mail. From Louis of ND.

Hello BetaHound,

thank you for the informative letter
the Parliament is discussing your proposals ...

first reactions are very positive
see you
Louis

	12-03-2003 09:32									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller ahh maybe I am, just playing to much diplomacy (I am italy, austria and turkey are allied, it sucks) Jon Miller

Very insghtful jon.

Vox=Italy
NeuD=Austria
GoW=Turkey

Yes - I see.

	12-03-2003 09:35									#54
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2nd turn, and they are eating russia

but it still sucks

Jon Miller

	13-03-2003 06:48									#55
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They/we never said that not settling on the continent was part of our deal. did we. So we can still settle.
Unless you think that they will declare war on us for it?
We keep quite and if they press us we go with something along the lines of what Witt said

	13-03-2003 06:51									#56
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why are we sending ND gold?

Jon Miller

	13-03-2003 07:26									#57
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The problem with making the agreement where we give a tech now to get something later is that they may break it if we settle and they don't like it. They end up the winner in the deal while we lose. If the techs are not traded until later then nobody wins if the deal is broken.

I am concerned about ND's implied threat about staying off the continent. If we do we may be sealing our own fate. I think our chances of winning are slim if we stay confined to North Estonia. We should find out if GS would be willing to forge a military alliance and provide assistance in the event we are attacked on the main continent.

	13-03-2003 08:04									#58
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Jon - as you said to Macy - it is important that you read the threads?

The gold was part of the alliance deal - not reparations. See the letter which was sent.

Now that they have stated we are not welcome on the continent, I would have sent them literature and be done with it. I still think we can play nice - get across - and claim our territory. I don't want to p*** them off now by renegging on the deal.

But I do want to pressure them into committing to the technology trade.

	13-03-2003 18:45									#59
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Reminder note sent this morning.

Greetings Louis.

I trust all is well with you and the fine people of Neu Demogyptica.

I was wondering what is the status of the trade deal we have proposed. Have you discussed the matter with GoW? You had previously mentioned that our earlier proposal had been received positively.

I do not mean to pressure you into a decision, but we have different research and trade options, and would like to firm up a deal now if possible. We would very much like to do business with you.

Also - we have forwarded 10 gold to you this turn as a first instalment on the 30 gold we committed to in our previous letter. We will forward 10 more each turn for the next 2 turns. I trust this is satisfactory - it works better for our treasury and cash flow at the moment.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Our best regards ..... Beta.

	14-03-2003 04:32									#60
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I would like to point out that we ahve given them literacy plus 30 gold


and have gotten out

"You are right we are researching currency right now. It'll be finished in about 20 turns. So please research something else. We have already good relationships with GoW and a Techresarchpact. We'd like to have you in that boat too, so i would sugest that you research something else."

Dear BetaHound,
Der Voxians,

the people from Neu Demogyptica are irritated and puzzled by the news that
came over the Great Ocean from the Palace of the Voice of Vox Controli.

Many of us still cannot believe that the Voxians which we believed to be our
partners and friends granted the people of Lux a hideout in one of your
cities without telling us one single word.

I honour your intention of "saving" a people without "taking sides" in a
war. It shows that you are a nation that despises bloodshed and is trying to
make this world a place where everybody can liver together in peace and
harmony.

But I totally disagree with your assumption, that by "saving" the Luxians,
you have not sided with one of the war-parties. Indeed, from the perception
of the people of Neu Demogyptica, you have taken the side of Lux.

Let me please repeat that we didn't wanted this war. We were prepared,
nevertheless. We experienced a long time of quarrels about borders and
scouts. A long time of negotiations where we learned that the people of Lux
can't be really trusted, that they are volatile in their opinions and frouzy
in their agreements. I know that Lux tells the same things about our
behaviour (although they're still lacking the proof). It is their right of
speech to do this. (Although I believe you have apparently made your own
experience with Lux to judge...) And I'm not telling you all this because I
want to defend a war that has already ended. I am
not arguing about "right" or "wrong" in this conflict. There never is in any
war. War ist always wrong. I'm just telling you that we were FORCED into
this war by Lux Invitca.

I'm telling you to explain you how the people of Neu Demogyptica feel. We
didn't want this war. We saw it coming. We prepared. And we spent much
ressources in building up an army; ressources we would have preferd to spent
for developement and culture.

It ist for this reason, that we expected reparations from the beginning from
Lux. Would they had given us a few of their cities and confirmed a better
behaviour for the future, this war would have been ended immediatly. As you
know, they didn't trusted us (the traitor always thinks that everyone wants
to betray him). They thought we wanted to erase them totally and burned
their cities. In the end, we got nothing. Lux exists no longer, but its
government could escape to your city.

It is for this reason, that the people of Neu Demogyptica don't agree at all
with your notion, that you didn't take "side". The people of Vox took side,
even if it didn't wanted to. They took side in offering Lux a chance to
escape without paying for the war they forced upon us.

There are some members of our parliament who even claim that Vox did this on
purpose to earn the treasury of Lux. I don't have to tell you that I don't
think a single second about this, and I know that my government also doesn't
pay attention to this voices. I know that you saved Lux because you wanted
to show your nobility and charity for all the people of this world.

But nevertheless: I am sure that Lux paid you for your kindness and that in
the end the treasury fell in your hands when you re-took Portia. Now that I
have depicted the situation in which the people of Neu Demogyptica are and
how they feel about your intervention I leave it up to you to decide what to
do next.

This letter won't be published to our parliament. If the people of Vox would
hand us out the treasury of Lux, all of the members of the parliament will
think that it was the idea from Vox from the beginning to save Lux, but to
force them at the same time to pay the people of Neu Demogyptica for the war
they have entangled us. They will believe in your nobility and your
kind-heartness as you published it in your announcement. And we can continue
with our relationship in harmony and prospertity.

It is also with irritation that I learned that Vox apparently has given a
part of the Lux-money to the people of GoW who joined the war for their own
reasons and also very late, when it was nearly already over. I cannot really
understand why they claim reparations but I am sure they have good reasons
and you can explain them to me. If that really means that the money of Lux
is already spent, I think you could also show your goodwill by sharing the
secret of literature with us.

But as I said: I am not begging for reparations. It is up to you to decide.
But remember what I have told you about how the people of Neu Demogyptica
feel. I definitly don't want that the glorious nation of Vox which culture I
begun to love will stay in the memory of Neu Demogyptica as the ones who
have allied with the untrustworthy Luxians.

And I still have to tell you that I am puzzled why you didn't told us about
your agreement with Lux, feigning ignorance instead and asking who the war
develops. They were out of reach for our armies, we coudn't (and wouldn't)
have done nothing but would have waited for their reparations instead. The
people of Neu Demogyptica would have totally agreed with the plan of Lux to
immigrate to another country and to begin a "new life". They never planned
the destruction of the Luxian civilization. But I am sure there is an answer
for your secrets.

I wish the people of Vox Controli all the best and may they take the right
decision and continue their work for a peaceful and better world.

Sincerely
Louis, Ambassador of Neu Demogyptica

and

Dear BetaHound,
Dear Voxians, dear friends,

let me introduce myself. I am Louis, citizen of Neu Demogyptica and
designated ambassador for the empire of Vox Controli. I'm really looking
forward to settle down in the embassy of Neu Demogyptica in your glorious
country.

First I have to apologize that the people of ND were so quiet for a long
time and could not answer your messages. All of your letters arrived, even
if they had to cross the ocean, but, alas!, our scribes found no time to
answer them, because they were forced to put away their plumes and take up
their swords instead to go to war. As you surely already heard, the
untrustworthy people from Lux Invita first invaded our country with their
warriors, frightening our farmers and disturbing our harvest seasen. In the
end, they killed our brave scout Thor in an ambush in No Man's Land, thus
forcing us to declare war on them.

This war goes on for some years now and the politicians and generals of Lux
Invicta have proven more wicked and selfish then we ever would have thought:
They rather prefered to burn down their cities, killing their own people
then allow us to liberate them and show the citizens the advantages of our
civilisation.

This is mostly the reasen why none of our scribes found the time to answer
your messages. Nevertheless, we still honour the friendship that Vox has
shown to us some ages before and we often think of you and your continent
which must be a continent of peace, without any malicious generals who burn
their own cities.

But let's stop this discussion of bloodshed and war and focus on more
important issues. As I said I am designated to be your new ambassador. I
will try my best to explain my people how your country functions and how
special your culture is and what they may be able to learn from the empire
of Vox Controli. As a matter of course, you can also always ask me to tell
you more from Neu Demogyptica and I will try to answer all your questions.

We're also very interested in how your relationship with Gathering Storm has
developed. We know very little of this nation. But as you told us you had
difficulties with them, my people look at them with suspicion. We hope that
everything is reassessed now on your continent and that you can prosper and
develop your society.

Finally, I wanted to talk with you about our tech-trade. Our scientists
finally discovered the secrets of Mysticism. They are behaving a little
bit... mysterious ... since then. Well... they had help from the scientists
from GoW... but as we honour the friendship between our two nations, we
still want to share with you the secrets of the numbers, called "Math".
Unless the scientists from GoW haven't already explained it to you. Please
note that we have our own system of counting, called the "Arabic numeral".
You might find it very useful, perhaps more useful than the numbers you used
before in your daily life. And definitly more convenient than the
complicated number system from GoW. If you already discovered the secret of
"Math" we still want to offer you our Arabic numerals as a gift: one = 1,
two = 2, three = 3, ... [etc.etc.]

My warmest regards to you, BetaHound, and to the glorious nation of Vox
Controli. I pray to the Mysterious Gods that our friendship will last
through the ages.

With sincerity
Louis, Ambassador of Neu Demogyptica

now maybe I am missing something

but these do not appear to be the reponses of freinds

Jon Miller