10-08-2003 00:18									#121
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We should probably talk to them about when they want to do this or even IF they want to do this before we go and build that warrior. If they're about to enter the war on Bob in a few turns they may not even need us to build a warrior for them. If they're not ready to enter the war for a while, but want to build up first with a GA then by all means we can build it for them.

Last edited by Rhothaerill on 10-08-2003 at 02:53

	10-08-2003 02:05									#122
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Yes - good point Rhoth. I will ask Lego.

	12-08-2003 16:06									#123
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Sent to Lego in email with the save:

quote: Sent a trade deal with the 70 gold we owe plus a gift of our territory map.

	03-09-2003 22:14									#124
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As indicated in the GS thread - forwarded GS' note to vondrack of Lego. Here is his reply. Oh and BTW, I also asked him about the proposed city site as well. And. also note his questions at the bottom. I will respond to those. (this was an e-mail I received, cut and pasted into here and edited - so sorry of it looks wonky)

Hi, Beta!

Beta asked "Hi vondrack. Remember the map attached to our Legos Minor settlement agreement. Do you have a copy of it? It was the ones with the lines on it. I have the city site plan, but not the agreement map. The reason I ask is that Witt has proposed settling on the isthmus to the south of Memory - near the fish tile. From what I can see - Port Hammer is scheduled to go there. But if you are not going to use this piece of real estate, we would be keen on reaching a deal for it."

vondrack's response - I am sorry but you are 100% correct about Port Hammer. It is planned to be on the isthmus S-S-S-SE of Memory and it's considered to be strategically important (not at this very moment, but long-term - it should be founded quite soon, within ~20 turns). It shall be THE naval base supporting a planned three-tile "naval wall" sealing the access to the Bay of Panama.

Beta asked - "Also- received a message from Velociryx of GS, wanting to talk. I will relay it to you. We - you and I - should have discuss how we deal with it. We may be able to parlay it into some sort of advantage - ie we cozy up with GS. They are basically proposing we get involved in the conflict - but on 'you know who's' side. "

vondrack's response - Now, this is tricky... I have been mulling this over for almost a full day (that's why I did not respond immediately), pondering about what could be gained by not simply turning the idea down. One thing that is clear from Vel's message is that GS sorta learnt from their past diplomatic mistakes and are now doing their best to get the world aid their cause. We/Lego told them we would not support them, so they're trying to ally with you... which confirms something else at the same time - they have no idea about our/Lego involvement so far. Which is great. (Our first troops land on Bob on the upcoming turn, with more en route...). It also shows they are not all that sure about winning this war as they pose in the public forum. Good.

But... I somehow fail to see how to "accept" (quotes intentional, as it is obvious a true acceptance would be directly crossing our/Lego plans in the Great Bobian War) without falling into 'yet another Voxian treachery' pitfall (I am sure that if you "betray" GS one more time, they are going to hire RL killers to hunt you all down ). And - if there is anything at all we could gain by you pretending being in the same bed with them... I seriously doubt they would share their military plans with you even if cooperating.

So, I am sorta undecided... as for myself, I would probably suggest you politely turn the proposal down (and I am quite sure other Legos would want the same). I may try talking to GoW/ND, but I seriously doubt their PoV would be different.

Here is a point you can/should use in your response to Vel (I am not mentioning things you know best - like the strength of your army and navy etc.): Lego will naturally withdraw its protection, if you attack another nation. The protection was/is meant against others trying to do harm to you. Certainly not as an eternal bond forcing us to go to a war you might come up with. Actually, as we are 'neutral' at best in this war (that's what GS believes, I think), we would quite likely be very angry at you if you mess our relations with Bobians (and there definitely is a very strong bond between us and you, so anything you do WOULD affect our own relations with GoW & ND).

One thing: whatever your response to GS is, make sure they cannot get a hint of our/Lego involvement, please. It seems obvious to me they have no idea so far - and that's how it should remain for as long as possible.

OTOH, I am all for you maintaining friendly relations with GS. Trade techs. Talk. All kinds of 'peaceful cooperation' are fine. It is very likely you might become THE neutral party acting as the intermediator for tech deals and things like that once Lego gets directly involved in the war...

BTW, a couple of questions:

a) how many turns to Printing Press?
b) is your "intelligence contract" with GoW active?
c) how many turns before you complete your first harbour?
d) any techs you might need? (Edu, Astro available)

I am asking about a harbour because once you have one, we will be able to send you dyes. Probably nothing major, but it will not hurt either.

Take care,
vondrack

	04-09-2003 06:59									#125
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PM from vondrack (parts of my original message to him in quotes. )(and btw - on b) whether our investigative contract with GoW was still active - I gave him the facts on what we have done to date, and on d) regarding whether we wanted the techs in question - I said we would get back to him.)

RE: GS
Hi, Beta!

quote: a) 28 turns to printing press as of last turn. We are researching it using a scientist out of Panama Vox. This enables us to maximize gold production to rush city improvements. It is a slow process with mostly size one cities. Getting there though. Does the 28 turns to completion cause problems?

No problems at all, just wanted to know where you were. With our Astro-for-Banking deal with GS cancelled at thier request, we're planning our future research strategy now. It seems quite viable to leave the upper techtree branch (Banking, Economy, Democracy) to you, while taking the lower branche route (Chemistry, Physics, Metallurgy... etc.) ourselves. But that's many, many turns from now.

quote: c) Harbours - well at straight construction times -22 turns. But we expect to rush a couple in the near term. Not quite sure of the exact timing. Maybe 10-12 turns out. Thanks for the offer of a lux. GoW owes us some 60 turns of a luxury as well.

Asked because of a current issue we have here... RPers came begging... and we would like to give them at least a token help to maintain the cover of "neutrality" for as long as possible. We told them we might be able to give them our last dyes (for free) for until you finish up your first harbour, pretending we promised it to you. Just wanted to know what the timeframe is. I can see that I do not need to worry about this - they'll most probably lose their trade link to us before you finish your first harbour.

quote: Now, as to the GS thing, Harry had a devious idea (see - it is not always me ):

The idea is just awesome! If GS was willing to give you something valuable for "getting involved", it might be worth trying... if you are ready to lose even the last bits of your credibility in the GS folks' eyes.

I suggest you try to find out what kind of an incentive GS would be willing to give you for attacking GoW. I will mention the issue tomorrow at the regular allies' chat - and see what their reaction would be. And I will give it some more thinking in the meanwhile.

Take care,
vondrack

	04-09-2003 21:15									#126
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Re techs: Atro would be nice. Our galleys are exploring. If we don't use them to transfer troops to GoW Island then Astro would allow them to explore a little farther out.

Re GS deal: Glad he thinks its awesome. We need to negotiate with GS to find out what they are offering and put a couple of plans together before we decide what to do. Maybe I should do it. With me being unavailable Friday evenings through Sunday night it will slow things down a bit, but I am willing to discuss it with GS.

	05-09-2003 02:15									#127
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From Lego:

the staged conflict on Baby Bob
Hi, Beta & all Voxians!

We have been discussing the whole thing in Lego and I have briefly brought the issue up today at the regular Thursday alliance chat with Darekill and Aggie. We/Lego currently lean towards letting you do whatever you wish, as long as it does not interfere with our (alliance) plans.

You know where we stand, you know who our allies are, and who is our enemy. You know what kind of reactions this and that can provoke... So - talk to GS, talk to GoW, do whatever you feel is best. We want you to have fun with the game - we do not want you to be a mere vassal state, just blindly doing what we tell you. We would prefer you being our "little brother" we watch over. So - we'd like to you to have as much freedom and autonomy as reasonably possible.

This surprise proposal and your possible pretended involvement in the war sounds exactly like a thing you can handle on your own, without any "directions" or "suggestions" from Lego. Surely, we would not be happy to have our plans messed by your actions - but if you keep us informed, that should not be the case.

Cheers,
vondrack

	05-09-2003 02:32									#128
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Interesting. Now I guess we need to contact GoW and see if they're willing to go along with the plan...

	05-09-2003 02:42									#129
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It's good to know that if we do move forward with this plan (assuming everything falls in place) that we have Lego's tacit approval. Vox wouldn't exist without them. I'm still of the opinion that we do our best to help them win the game since we probably won't.

	05-09-2003 04:12									#130
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I feel the same way Rhoth.

	05-09-2003 04:57									#131
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Me too.

	05-09-2003 09:21									#132
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Before we contact GoW I want to find out what GS is offering, then put together options to discuss and vote on. If we decide to go with the GS plan, we do not want to tip our hand to GoW by contacting them. So lets look at our options first.

	05-09-2003 18:02									#133
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However, I think vondrack has raised the matter with GoW already in a chat. But still, let's find out what GS is offering.

As discussed earlier - Harry - do you want to take the lead? Velociryx is awaiting our response. See my latest message to him in the GS thread.

	05-09-2003 23:41									#134
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I will contact Vel. I am getting ready to leave for the weekend so if he wants to talk to someone before Monday he will need to contact someone else.

	06-09-2003 03:28									#135
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I am here this weekend - I will let Vel know.

	30-09-2003 03:24									#136
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Does Lego know our current situation with Printing Press and Democracy? I mean, that it will still take us over 20 turns before we finish research and can gift the first to them as well as starting on the second.

	02-10-2003 08:59									#137
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Copy of PM sent to Vondrack...


Good evening Vondrack.

I opened up our save tonight and what do I see but a nice little gift of Education from Lego. On behalf of Vox, thank you!

I also wanted to keep you apprised of our research situation. We will have Printing Press 22 turns from 280ad. At that time we will gift you the tech. If Lego is able to send us Banking by then we will be able to begin work on Democracy like the plan that was worked out several weeks ago. With any luck our two nations will be the first to feel a democratic enlightenment.

Again thanks on behalf of Vox.

Regards,

Rhoth.

	26-10-2003 10:58									#138
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Kloreep, Sharpe, and Nimitz of Lego were all chatting in Tabemono (yep I have four Legos including ZargonX on my DGII team) while playing the turn about having a chat with the members of Vox to keep everyone up to date. I unfortunately missed all the chat (since I left to watch our new Matrix Reloaded DVD with my wife ), but I PMed Kloreep after that to see when and where. I'll keep you apprised.

	26-10-2003 18:29									#139
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Sounds like a good idea. I would be up for a chat.

	29-10-2003 21:18									#140
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As long as I can get lots of advanced warning I will try to make a chat. My life is a mess right now. Reddi suffered a serious injury at a running event this last weekend. He was in surgery yesterday. I pick him up tonight. I may not be getting on very often so plenty of advance notice is needed for me to get it on my schedule.

	29-10-2003 22:18									#141
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Understood Harry. I hope Reddi will be fine! I know how life can be a mess. My wife's mother is currently in the hospital (cancer, brain tumors, etc.) She's doing okay right now, but the entire family is on edge at the moment. All we can do is pray.

I can take over the turn play for a while (games are kind of an escape at the moment). However my wife and I will be going on vacation November 8th-15th (barring any unforeseen circumstances) so maybe Beta can play during that time. I'll leave some detailed turn orders before I leave.

Regarding the chat, I'll talk with Kloreep and Zargon to see when they'd like to set it up. I talk to them quite a bit in Tabemono.

	30-10-2003 05:30									#142
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Good luck with Reddi, Harry. Hope he does well.

	14-12-2003 07:43									#143
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Had a quick chat with vondrack this evening. It has been awhile since I have chatted with him.

From what he says, it would appear that the Bobian war is over. GS lost the last battle and a stack of knights. Also - Lego was pretty adamant that GS stay off the continent, and in fact, they had the LEF (Legoland Expeditionary Force) on the continent and only a few turns from engaging. Looks like GS is pulling out from the continent.

We discussed briefly where the game goes from here. I expressed my concern that GoW/ND were becoming a dangerous alliance, and that Lego may be the next target. vondrack did not rule out allying with GS if that was the case. I gave assurance that we would be there to help which ever way it went.

I think we should shoot for the appearance of ultimate neutrality. It may help us in the long run. I did not say this to vondrack, of course.

vondrack was very pleased with the PP-Invention trade we have pulled off with GS. His concern is that they would have had to work out a deal with GoW to get Invention to us.

I told him we do not need Chivalry right yet. You guys let me know when you want it - I can't see any real reason for having it now other than the comfort of having it. And it must give Lego an even greater sense of comfort knowing we do not have it.

As to RP, it is not clear. Looks like they may be forced into our old homeland.

I indicated that we were 11 turns from PP. And that we would probably be able to research our next tech faster - given cash flow and libraries.

And speaking of which - I just checked the save - and this is not definitive as these are techs that everyone but us has - but at a 50% research rate (and we are close to being able to maintain that at zero gpt), Chivalry was 11 turns and Invention 14.

Of course - the question is whether we want to use cash on research or rushing builds. We may have to walk a fine line here. We need to be seen as a somewhat valuable partner.

Also - with the war over - we may be able to collect our cash from GoW.

vondrack said hi and wished us well.

	14-12-2003 13:17									#144
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I fully agree with giving the appearance of ultimate neutrality. Everyone knows Lego helped us out, but if we only appear like we are in bed with Lego the others might suspect things. If we appear as if we are fully autonomous (which we essentially are, just that we want to help Lego win) then others will be more inclined to deal with us.

I have not really looked at the possibilities of faster research yet, but I would like to do so if we can..as much to be a valuable trading partner as anything. However, I do not want to back off building up our military again. I am torn about chivalry right now. On the one hand it would be nice to build horsemen and upgrade, but we'd need a lot more cash than we have for that to be significant. If we received chivalry we could build knight units straight out. Perhaps after a few horsemen are built then we can take a look at getting chivalry. Plus our cash flow will be better later anyway once we get some marketplaces built.

Also, Beta perhaps you can verify with Vondrack about the possibilities of receiving banking from them (if they have it) before we finish printing press. If we can, then we can start right in on researching democracy.

	14-12-2003 19:38									#145
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Rhoth - Ok - will make the inquiry.

	18-12-2003 22:43									#146
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(Let me know what you think before I send it. Thx.)

Dear Lego Leaders,

The people of Vox have a couple of inquiries and points for discussion.

To start with, I have been asked to inquire about obtaining banking prior to us completing printing press. This will allow us to start researching democracy immediately on a gpt basis.

Also - do you have astronomy - and can we trade for it, buy it, or beg for it? We would promise not to trade it.

The reason regarding the latter is that our galley survey has revealed the potential of an island to our NW. Utilizing caravels we could possibly expand our small geographic area to further enhance our research capabilities.We could risk an empty galley run to discover the island - but we cannot possibly risk a settler as well.

And finally, on the same theme of geographic expansion, I have been asked to inquire about the squiggle of land south of Memory and SeaBiscuit. (the isthmus that ends in a "T", with a mountain on its north end.) Can we negotiate for this parcel of land for settlement? Our city would go on the middle hill tile. We would never station any troops in the city, unless with your approval in crisis situations. We would allow, even encourage you to station a unit on the mountain to keep an eye on things. We would ensure its expansion never goes beyond using the two or three plains tiles to the SW. And we would work with you to bring irrigation up from the south.

Your thoughts or ideas or responses on these matters would be appreciated. We are also available to chat about these, or any other matters, at your convenience.

Regards ...Beta, on behalf of Vox C.

edit - typos cleaned up - and sent to vondrack and ZargonX of Lego.

Last edited by Beta on 19-12-2003 at 17:53

	18-12-2003 23:02									#147
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It looks good to me. You might mention that I'm available to chat too. I'm usually available for chat after 6pm Pacific Time and often chat with Zargon and Kloreep anyway since I'm in other demogames with them. I'd go ahead and send it, though you do have a spelling error in the sentence about stationing a unit near the new city if we get it.

I still don't believe we will get the land for that city, based on Vondrack's statements a while back, but it's worth asking and you know Vondrack better than I do.

Once we find out for certain regarding banking and astronomy then I will also be able to get back to GoW and RP about the printing press deals.

	18-12-2003 23:17									#148
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Looks good, oh '"Beta-of-the-silver-tougue."

	19-12-2003 08:05									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Rhothaerill It looks good to me. You might mention that I'm available to chat too. I'm usually available for chat after 6pm Pacific Time and often chat with Zargon and Kloreep anyway since I'm in other demogames with them. I'd go ahead and send it, though you do have a spelling error in the sentence about stationing a unit near the new city if we get it. I still don't believe we will get the land for that city, based on Vondrack's statements a while back, but it's worth asking and you know Vondrack better than I do. Once we find out for certain regarding banking and astronomy then I will also be able to get back to GoW and RP about the printing press deals.

Thanks for the input Rhoth and Witt. I suspect we will not get the squiggle, but even asking for it might give us some leverage/credit on the other points.

Sending the letter now.

	20-12-2003 18:19									#150
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to Lego given the GS tech deal...

vondrack and ZargonX...

As previously discussed with vondrack in a chat, we have indeed finalized our trade with GS. We have received invention this turn. We will be sending them printing press in 10 turns upon its completion.

And as also indicated in my previous note, the nation of Vox Controli is getting cranked up for gpt tech research. Population and wealth output continue to rise - and more libraries are getting built.

Regards. ....Beta.