26-06-2003 18:12									#91
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Sent to vondrack of Lego. Looks like we are in OK shape.

Hi vondrack.

Vox thought we should makle sure we are in agreement on accounting for the various loans and payments made to Vox from Lego.

The first instalment of 200 gold, in two payments of 100, was paid back via:

i) our new era tech for 50 gold.
ii) feudalism for 150 gold.

I think this is what we agreed to.

The second installment was 240 gold, in two instalments of 120.

i) The first 120 was a grant/payment as part of the engineering/theology deal yet to be transacted.

ii) The second 120 was a loan to be paid back over 20 turns, starting at a specific date. We have recently sent Lego 50 gold as an early repayment on that 120, so if my accounting is correct, Vox still owes Lego 70 gold.

Is this how you see it?

That being said, Vox also acknowledges that we owe you a lot more than that. Your tech deals were generous during the recent past, and of course, above and beyond that, you saving our butts, well as the advertisement says ... "priceless". However, we do hope to be able to pay you back over the remainder of the game.

We will also get back to you shortly on the larger agreement.

The peace deal is in place with GS.

And the de-population of our cities on Estonia continues.

We will keep you posted of how things are going. Can you give a precise timing on when the New Voice will be in place. And BTW, the loaction you had determined on your map was perfect by us.

Take care. Greetings to ZargonX and the rest of Lego.

See you soon.

Beta.

ps - I think we also owe you a world map - or do you have our latest?

	26-06-2003 21:54									#92
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Lego's response.

RE: Accounting
Hi, Beta!

The accounting is precisely as we see it. Only 70 more gold to go (no hurry - 70g will not save the day for us and you will need some cash reserve to survive your Big Hop... with few cities and many units in the beginning, you are likely to run a deficite budget for some time, so make sure you have some savings). BTW, not sure what your plans are, but I would suggest disbanding most of your military units in order to speed up or better yet, increase settler production... every extra settler counts, while extra military (over 1 unit per city) will be pretty much useless. Barbarians can be handled by anything with defense over 1... and we will publicly announce that your settlements on Legos Minor are under our protection, so anyone attacking you there will have to deal with our military in the first place.

And yes, you do owe us your world map... though it may be just a formality, as we are now close to striking a complex deal with GS, which includes their WM - which will probably be very similar to yours.

Timeline for The New Voice:

250 BC (T116): settler+worker+escort 3 tiles from the destination
225 BC (T117): settler+worker+escort 2 tiles from the destination
200 BC (T118): settler+worker+escort 1 tile from the destination
175 BC (T119): settler+worker+escort arrive at the destination site
150 BC (T120): The New Voice founded, worker joins it, city immediately gifted to you

So, you should receive the city in 125 BC (T121).

I just hope there will be no delay - barbs COULD delay it slightly, if things go wrong. The city WILL be founded in 150 BC, no matter what. The question is whether its immediate vicinity will be barb-free for that 1 turn we will need to safely hand the control of the city to you.

If the delay is a problem, there is always the possibility of letting barbs sack the city. Up to you to decide.

Cheers,
Radek

	02-07-2003 08:28									#93
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Question for those of you who have been here the whole time. Do you believe it would be at all possible to get the Legos map? I'm guessing that Legos Minor is the island to the northwest of Legos where the horse and the desert are. If there is any way we can see the map soon then we can start plotting out our new city layout before we even get there. I know it's only a few turns left to the Voxodus, but then we have to explore the island a bit before deciding on a good course of city placement.

	02-07-2003 15:50									#94
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We have a map already. Will send it now.

It also has vondrack's suggested city sites.

	02-07-2003 16:25									#95
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cool

Jon Miler

	02-07-2003 20:24									#96
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Oh, okay. I didn't see it on the savegame you sent. Thanks Beta.

	03-07-2003 05:26									#97
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I think the city placement proposed by vondrack was ideal: many cities on the coast, well positionned for corruption fighting. I think that (almost) nothing is to change on this plan.

--Kon--

	03-07-2003 07:01									#98
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Just took a look at the files Beta sent me and it looks good to me too. That's probably about what I'd do for city placement. Certainly not an ideal location (all those mountains and no way to irrigate for a while), but it's better than the alternative.

	04-07-2003 03:11									#99
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Just received from Lego. I advised that a few turns of delay should not be a problem - as we still have some winding up to do. And the delayed timing was preferable to having the city sacked and losing the pop point.

Are you guys OK with that? I am going to try and map out in more detail the wind-up and will post it in the evac plan thread.


The New Voice delayed
Hi, Beta!

No good news this time... despite Howard (our sword escort) killing four or five barbs while under way to The New Voice site, things are not looking good. We are 99% sure that if we founded the city on the next turn (as planned), it would be sacked by barbarians. There are too many of them around and Howard will not be able to handle all of them.

Barbs sacking the city could kill the extra pop point we are bringing along with the settler (a worker named 'Beta' ) to allow the spear poprush, therefore we would prefer delaying the city foundation by three turns. Two more escort units (medinfs) are landing on the next turn (this has been the fastest we were able to get them there) - within three turns, they should be able to cover the whole of The New Voice site perimeter against barbarians for those two or three turns we will need to hand the city safely over to you.

Is this acceptable for you?

The city would not be sacked on the very turn it would be founded... but one turn later, after becoming 'yours'. So it would be your treasury getting plundered... if you are really pressed for time, we could try proceeding as planned, knowingly going for the risk (well, it is much more of a certainty than risk).

Please, advise. (and if needed, notify GS, please)

Cheers,
Radek aka vondrack
the new FAM of Legoland
yes, there have been... ahem... 'elections'... and I felt like taking a different job...

	04-07-2003 03:22									#100
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And here was my response. I went on to tell him that if we did have an issue with the timing - and wanted the city now - we would get back to them shortly.

Yikes. You mean the natives aren't friendly!!?? Well, to hell with this. This deal is off.

Er - just a moment - maybe I spoke too soon. hehe

Hi Radek. I think the delay would be more than OK. We still need to wind down the cities - and it looks like a 4-6 turn horizon before we would be set to go. I can be more specific when I revisist the save and do some calcs. Had to play it in a hurry this morning. We are also working out the best way to do the transport - and we need to find out from GS if they mind us disbanding the capitol - as ione of Harry's scenarios requires.

So, the later timing would work fine, and the extra pop point would be useful. It will allow us to keep our 5 city set-up going for a bit longer

	05-07-2003 02:48									#101
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Lego had inquired about the treaty, so I revisited the thread, added some comments, and sent this response:

Greetings vondrack.

My apologies for not getting this back to you sooner, Agreement was reached very quickly within Vox, but discussion on the timing of the jump had overtaken the thread, and I never got back to it.

We Voxians are very much on-side with this proposal. In fact - we find the tech arrangement quite generous. Our plan is to max out on commerce and libraries to make us as quickly as possible a worthy partner in such a deal.

I think the wording of #8, which is a bit awkard right now - should read: V.C. agrees to no trading of maps... . As it stands now we could agree to 'prefer' not to do it, but still do it against our preference. Not that we would use such a loop-hole, but the revised wording would make it clear. Maybe we should add, "unless approved by Lego" in case there is ever a good reason that the alliance may want to trade it.

The only area of minor discussion was Clause #4, about Vox not declaring war on another country without your approval. It hurts our pride a bit - as a certain autonomy is lost. But - if I was in your shoes - and knowing our history , I would demand the same. You do not want to be dragged into Immortal Beloved 2 against your will. Also, as our commitment now is to fully support Lego economically, politically, and if need be militarily, this clause, in reality, causes us no problems.

To put it another way... after the failed war against GS, our objective in this game has been re-defined. We simply want to be second. It beats going out early.

So - on a more official note - I Beta, on behalf of Vox Controli, agree to the following treaty, in this the year 190 BC.


Treaty of The New Voice

1) Legoland agrees to give Legos Minor to Vox Controli as a new homeland. Legos Minor is defined as all land beyond the isthmus of Invoice/Benelux (see the map).
No Vox Controli settlement may be founded South of the site marked as "Southernmost Vox Controli City on Legos Minor". Considering the land shown on the map attached, Legoland will settle no more sites than Port Hammer and Invoice/Benelux.

(The map did not show up - I will forward it viea PM.)


2) Legoland will, at its earliest convenience, found and gift a 2-pop city on Legos Minor to Vox Controli, in a location specified by Vox Controli. Legoland will make reasonable efforts to protect this city from barbarians until Vox Controli is able to protect it with its own forces.

3) Neither Legoland, nor Vox Cotroli will ever accept a city trying to defect (aka "culture flip") to the other party.

4) Vox Controli will never declare war on another civ without Legoland's approval and consent. Legoland will never declare war on Vox Controli, except for fake/staged wars as needed for GA triggering, combat training ("GL factory") or worker exchange. Fake wars would be declared with the approval of both parties involved.

5) All techs researched by either Legoland or Vox Controli must be shared with the other team upon request. Any techs requested under this clause are subject to a permanent Non-Disclosure Agreement; the team receiving the tech may not trade/gift/resell it to anyone else without the giving team's permission. This does NOT apply to techs acquired by trading with third parties.

6) If Legoland lacks a strategic resource Vox Controli has, Vox is obliged to provide it to Lego upon request. If Legoland has a surplus of a strategic resource Vox Controli lacks, Legoland is obliged to provide it to Vox Controli upon request. In both cases, a reasonable balance may be requested in exchange.

7) As soon as reasonably possible, Vox agree to build a warrior to keep in reserve for triggering Legoland's GA (a sacrifice to a Merc).

8) Vox Controli agrees to no trading of maps of Legos Minor to other civs, unless specifically approved by Lego.

	08-07-2003 05:13									#102
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Sent this with the 130bc save:

Greetings Legolanders!

Status update. We have two scenarios - one that wraps up in 4 turns - one that gets it done in 3. We prefer the former.

That gives us 8 settlers and 12 workers, and a very small army - somewhat humbling for the nation which once had the largest military.

2 of the settlers are in galleys and still some 8-10 turns from landing at last count.

Engineering in 4 turns.

Does our 4 turn schedule fit with the founding of the new city?

Will keep you apprised of events from our end.

Cheers ... Beta,

	10-07-2003 03:03									#103
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Received from Lego. Some interesting news.

RE: Agreement with GS and Timing
Hi, Beta!

The "timing" of The New Voice is a non-issue now.

We have founded the city on the last turn and "sent" it as 'accepted' over to you. You will become its owner as soon as the save reaches you. Be so kind and poprush the spear defender ASAP (this turn, if possible, or the next turn at latest). We have three guardians there (Howard NW of the city, Dycedarg covering the NE flank, and Gaul covering the SW flank), but your own spear IN the city will be THE way to ensure the city does not get sacked.

And BTW... we have traded for the WM of GS last turn. Honestly, I think you actually had VERY little chance to win. They are quite a monster, really. 14 cities in their southern area (S of Dissidentville), which is at least twice yours (N of Elipolis), almost every single tile fully improved. At this moment, it's extremely hard to match their economic power with clever military tactics only (though they don't have that much of a "growth potential", I think). Do not feel bad for your oversight - it might have speeded your defeat a bit, but I now do not believe it "changed the history" significantly.

Take care,
Radek

	10-07-2003 03:38									#104
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No wonder GS wanted our cities then.

It doesn't really surprise me that their civ is fully improved. One of the tenets that a lot of strat forum posters go by is that no matter if you are playing a peaceful game or a warlike game, good tile improvement is key.

	11-07-2003 01:07									#105
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We should approach lego about my plan for Democracy (see this thread) and see what they think of it. Since we will have Engineering in a few turns, we will need to get Theology from them soon.

	12-07-2003 04:10									#106
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This message from Lego is also posted in its entirety in the poll on Printing press. I post it here for chronological purposes only. Please debate it in the poll. Thanks.

research cooperation
Hi, Beta!

We've been discussing the research strategy that would maximize our (yours & ours) gains... after lot of pondering, we believe that it would be best for you to go for Printing Press @ 40 turns. Here is why (feel free to argue - and keep in mind the information below is STRICTLY CONFIDENTIAL, please... post this PM in your team forum in full or in part, but make sure all Voxians understand the information is CLASSIFIED):

1) Right after your "hop", you will have no choice but to go for a 40-turn research.

2) ATM, Lego is doing Astronomy, GS is doing Banking. These two techs are therefore out of question, as they will be discovered within ~10-15 turns.

3) This leaves only 2 techs "available": Printing Press & Invention.

4) We are almost 100% sure that GoW will do Invention as fast as possible, because they have been prebuilding Leo's in the Imperial City for ages.

5) ND and RP are very likely to end up warring each other soon (if not them, then I don't really know who could be ND's target - and that ND is going to attack someone, is beyond any doubts). Warring parties are unlikely to do any serious research.

6) This leaves Printing Press pretty much "unclaimed", likely for many turns - even @ the 40 turn research, you could be the first ones to discover it, acquiring a valuable asset.

After the initial 40 turn period, we'll see - we are not sure if your new empire could be ready to start doing faster research so soon, but - you can always pleasantly surprise us...

Let us know if this is okay with you.

There's another possibility, which seems to be a close second - that assumes you'd shut your research down completely until GoW discovers Invention (or until we discover Astronomy) and pick a more expensive tech (Gunpowder or Navigation) only then, to maximize the efficiency of the 40-turn research. But that involves significantly more risk than going for PP right now - Gunpowder, as a strategic tech, is very likely to be researched by someone else (someone faster). And we plan doing Navigation ourselves.

So, our recommendation would be: go for PP, please.

Looking forward to seeing your people on Legos Minor (btw, I believe we can consider The New Voice transfer successful now - our guardian units should be able to handle anything that approaches your new capital for those 2-3 turns you will need to hop the rest of your battered nation there).

Take care,
vondrack

P.S.: to prevent unnecessary research delays, we will be sending you Theology this turn.

	15-07-2003 19:56									#107
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Rec'd from vondrack regarding the investigation deal. He is keeping this very low key within Lego.

RE: confidential
Hi, Beta!

As you put it - as long as it is Bobian cities, no problem at all. Anything that helps the war on Bob to finally start is fine. I think it's actually a pretty sweet deal... if they pay the costs and give you something extra, cool.

If they ask you to investigate our cities, then it might be a good idea to still do the investigation for them, but tell us GoW requested it (being sort of a "double agent"). For us, the very information that GoW is looking our way is much more important than anything else - GoW could investigate our cities through someone else or directly themselves... we would not be able to prevent that. So knowing they're gathering intel on us is THE information we would need most. We could even 'stage' a stronger or weaker garrison for them as needed... making you report true, but intentionally distorted information leading GoW to incorrect conclusions.

I would consider investigating GS cities not kosher - after all, they have been quite generous to you and this would be a rather poor way of saying 'appreciated'.

So - I would say, go for it, but request GS not be part of the contract (this might even start speculations about your relations/loyalty to us, which would be just fine).

As for the mechanics... you need an embassy with the target civ. Then you just double click your capital's 'star' to open the embassy screen, pick the target civ & city, check the 'safe' method (the only one available) and that's it. One important thing to keep in mind - AFAIK, you can investigate only cities you "know" about. Cities that do not show on your world map will not be available for investigation.

So... my recommendation would be to accept the offer... and keep us informed.

Take care & give my best regards to other Voxians.
We are looking forward to greeting your nation on Legos Minor.

vondrack

	15-07-2003 20:31									#108
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Sounds good. Vondrack is correct. You can only investigate cities you know about.

	24-07-2003 20:03									#109
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Sent to Lego with the 10BC save:

quote: Our evacuation has been completed. Our units are now in Legos Minor. Your units can now go home or to where ever you need them. Thanks for your assistance. We will try to get ourselves built up as quickly as possible so we can provide some benefit to repay your generosity.

	24-07-2003 20:42									#110
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A quick response from Vondrack:

quote: Welcome to Legos Minor! Just for your information - Gaul, the Southern Guard, shall leave on foot southwards, across the isthmus connecting Legos Minor to Legos Major. The other two Guards shall be picked up by a boat on the NE coast of Legos Minor - they are going to start moving this turn. We will do our best to not interfere with the movement of your own units - feel free to tell us where to (not) go. Good luck! vondrack

And my reply:

Your untis are ahead of ours. As long as you head away from our new capital you will stay out of our way. Avoid the proposed city sites as that is where our settlers and their escorts are headed. All the workers around our capital will be busy for a few turns so you will have plenty of time to move without being in their way.

	06-08-2003 06:53									#111
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My recent correspondence with vondrack. Please consider this quite confidential. Thanks! My comments are next to the arrows. We should consider repaying the gold we owe them, if you think we can afford it. Or at least maybe 10 gpt or something like that.

Hi, Beta!

Just finished my work today - 2am+ here, so I am going to be quite
brief. Sorry.

> Re ptwdg - we are laying real low - and I have not been doing any
> side chats or inquiries, so no, we are not clued in.

The most you can do for us is to ignore this thing altogether. This is
not your war. Stay low, build up - we may very well need your help in
the near future... if the war with GS goes wrong, we will need every
dime... you are free to happily trade with anybody and everybody. Be
nice and make friends. You may very well happen to end up acting as an
intermediator, middle-man, or neutral party once the war is under way.

BTW - whenever you'd be able to repay the last part of the loan (70g,
IIRC), please, do not hesitate to do so. We are quite badly in need of
gold. We need to upgrade some horses to knights to be sent over to
Bob, while still researching as fast as possible. 70g is almost one
whole knight upgrade. Though - do not understand this as a reminder. I
am very well aware of your current situation.

As for our tech cooperation: we can currently provide Education,
Astronomy will be ready in 4 turns. Once you have real need for any of
these, just ask. I assume that you will want Astronomy once you build
your first harbor - it will open up the sea trade routes for you.

BTW... it would be wise to use some opportunity and talk to GoW about
trading for Invention. As Invention will be "their" tech, you will
need to get it before we will be able to give you gunpowder. From
gunpowder on, we will most probably be the principal alliance
researcher, so later techs should be free for you.

> Although I'm sure the public forum gives some idea of the underlying
> reality.

Not all of it. I think the most important part (the extent of Lego involvement) is missing. And I am doing my best to confuse GS as much as possible, still waiting for what they are going to do.

> Man - it is uglier than the Vox-GS event. And my only observation is
> that GS seems even touchier about this war than they did about the
> Vox war.

I am just dead tired of them... those guys simply don't know how to
have fun... it's sad. Many Legos feel the same way, I think - there
was not a single voice against our involvement in this war.

I am having troubles keeping my eyes open, so... good night!

Take care,
vondrack

	06-08-2003 07:02									#112
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Interesting....very interesting.

	06-08-2003 07:54									#113
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Very interesting. I did not know that Lego was ready to get directly involved in the war. Once we become a republic (should be next turn) we can run some calculations on our gpt situation and see where we stand. I was hoping to use the money to rush an improvement or two, but Lego should be paid first as long as we don't run out of money and start auto-disbanding units.

	06-08-2003 08:14									#114
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Well with luck GoW will actually pay us so we can repay Lego what we owe them. They certainly deserve it after the nice things they've done for us.

	07-08-2003 12:36									#115
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lego should be paid if at all possible

if they do well it helps us out too

Jon Miller

	09-08-2003 20:41									#116
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To Lego. Harry - please remember to send them 70 gold next turn, and our in-game map if you want.

And btw - while writing this I recall that we agreed to keep a warrior around for Lego to kill if they wanted to trigger their GA. We may want to produce one before we hook up the iron.

My message:

Greetings vondrack and citizens of Lego!

Vox Controli is getting re-established, thanks to your nation. Again - we want to express our gratitude for giving us Legos Minor, for establishing a city, and for protecting it during the Voxodus. You are generous and noble neighbours and we vow to repay you for your generosity and friendship. And as stated earlier - we will never cross you in this game.

So - to business. We are now a Republic - and a proud one at that. We have 8 cities - more than Vox has ever had. With a ninth on its way via galley.

Our cashflow is OK, and we will repay the remaining 70 gold we owe you next turn. Thank you again for the financing. Just too bad it didn't work out. Oh well. Maybe next time.

We are busy optimizing the use of the land that our Island has to offer. We will make it work- harbors are a priority right now. Along with some libraries.

By the way - I hope you are not offended but we have renamed the island 'Voxtavia'. We will send you an in-game map soon as well and you will see the names of the new cities. The capitol remains The New Voice as you have named it.

Also - a word of thanks to vondrack for the city site plan. After review by our team - we could not improve upon it - so the city sites will be familiar to you.

Trust all is well with Lego!

Regards ... Beta.

	09-08-2003 21:29									#117
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quote: And btw - while writing this I recall that we agreed to keep a warrior around for Lego to kill if they wanted to trigger their GA. We may want to produce one before we hook up the iron.

From my initial post in the Rebuilding thread:

quote: Our desert cities will be the last ones to be founded. I suggest we leave one or both disconnected from our iron (that means no roads or harbors) so they can produce warriors if Lego wants to do war games to try to produce a leader.

Panama Vox will be founded in about 4 turns. The northern desert city will not be founded for about 20 turns. A settler will be built in Hope after the granary is completed. These cities will be slow to produce warriors for a while. If we want we could change Phoenix to warrior. This will delay its library and impact its longer term growth a bit, but it will be a slow grower anyway for a while until we can get workers in that area to speed up production.

	09-08-2003 22:08									#118
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I think that Phoenix should build a warrior first. We can then move the warrior into position and Lego can attack him at their leisure inorder to trigger their golden age.

	09-08-2003 22:10									#119
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Concerning Lego generating a great leader ... I would imagine it would take more than just "a" warrior to do it, but then, if they are very, very lucky...

	09-08-2003 23:05									#120
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Phoenix can build a warrior in 5 turns. Before then the galley bringing the settler to the Panama Vox site will have dropped them off. It could be sent up to Phoenix to be ready to pick up the warrior and ship him across to Legoland. We could have a warrior in position for them within 10 turns. It will cost us 1 gpt for a few turns, more if they do not want to kill it right away, but shortly after the warrior is created we will get a few more citizens and more gpt.