23-02-2004 20:49									#151
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There still is the least "thrilling" option... and that is: well, why not? Try putting yourself in GoW's shoes:

What would we gain by denying MT to Lego? They'd put us on their blacklist, as denying MT would be - rightfully - percieved as a hostile gesture. The only likely outcome would be Lego getting closer to ND, which are sort of drifting away from us since the end of The Great War. We would not really weaken Lego, as they would - in their GA - be able to easily research the tech on their own much faster than we'd be able to do ToG (and they said they would do it, which was no surprise...). Plus, there would be another team able to sell MT around (read: spoiling our prices, mucking up our own plans). So... what exactly would we gain by not trading MT to Lego? We'd have to get ToG from GS... but GS is not overly interested in MT due to their lack of saltpeter. So they would probably tell us to stuff it... OTOH, Lego is happy to trade us ToG for MT, even waiving the beaker cost difference - let's take it then and wait for a better opportunity to show them a cold shoulder.

	28-02-2004 02:47									#152
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My chat with Master Zen yesterday. Nothing extremely urgent, but you may still want to read it, it's not a total waste of time:

quote: Session Start: Thu Feb 26 22:19:15 2004 Session Ident: MasterZen Session Ident: MasterZen (~raguil@200.92.196.25) MasterZen: question: how long till ToG? vondrack: I think it's according to the trade agreement - as outlined in it vondrack: last turn, we were 3 turns from ToG, I think MasterZen: would you perhaps be interested in trading Economics instead? vondrack: Economics for Military Tradition??? MasterZen: yes MasterZen: we have MT since last turn, we can offer it this very turn vondrack: why would you want that??? what is Economics good for (with Smith's being already built)? MasterZen: you built Smiths?? I thought it was being built... vondrack: MasterZen: hmm, you got it this last turn I suppose vondrack: finished last turn vondrack: yes MasterZen: :P MasterZen: btw MasterZen: some of the guys in my team are rather pissed that Lego used the Sistine deal as a prebuild for Smith's vondrack: why? MasterZen: we had agreed on exclusivity for Sistine, not for it to be used as a prebuild MasterZen: I can't say it was not part of the deal, I am just saying that some of us felt cheated vondrack: sorry to hear that MasterZen: in that case I'd assume that Sistine's is back on the table just in case we would want to build it, since that deal basically gave you Adam's vondrack: nope, I could not agree with that interpretation, sorry MasterZen: I see Lego wants a monopoly on GWs... vondrack: not really - aside from Sistine's, there are no more medieval wonders we are interested in vondrack: see, MZ, we could have used a different prebuild - a palace in one of our other cities vondrack: we do have at least one other city with the same shield output as Legopolis vondrack: using Sistine's made it maybe more convenient for us vondrack: but it was not this possibility that allowed us to build Smith's vondrack: plus, looking at our turn summaries, we did not really need a prebuild in the first place MasterZen: well, how do we know you guys aren't using the palace for another prebuild? vondrack: we are not vondrack: you have my word for it vondrack: ATM, we are not building, nor prebuilding any wonders MasterZen: my point is that whether or not you would have gotten Adam's, every thing that "could've" been used for a prebuild could've been used for an extra wonder. I don't doubt that you could'nt have gotten Adam's without the prebuild, but perhaps there was something else that Lego wouldn't have been able to get if it hadn't used it vondrack: like what? vondrack: we built a 400-shield Magellan's vondrack: and a 600-shield Smith's vondrack: that's it vondrack: you do not need that much to be able to build these two wonders MasterZen: well, GoW wasn't planning on Sistine's anyway, so I guess it's a moot point ultimately, I just wanted to share our team's dissapointment (if you can call it that). vondrack: thanks - really vondrack: is there anything vondrack: we could do to make you feel less, ummm, "pissed off", about this? vondrack: vondrack: disappointed I meant vondrack: I can see that you are now trading techs with GS vondrack: so perhaps techs are not what we could offer ATM vondrack: maybe a bit later on vondrack: anything else? MasterZen: hmm, I dunno... foreign aid? vondrack: what kind of? MasterZen: nah, that was a joke vondrack: MasterZen: nah, I have a feeling we're going to be in for quite some building in the near future vondrack: understood vondrack: same for us vondrack: btw... your military is weaker than that of ND vondrack: I was surprised to find that out vondrack: I thought it was the other way round MasterZen: not after I get the save vondrack: ??? MasterZen: upgrades vondrack: ah, I see vondrack: I keep forgetting about Leo's * MasterZen thinks vondrack was thinking GoW was about to invade ND vondrack: you are better off simply upgrading all along vondrack: LoL vondrack: but, yes, the idea did cross my mind vondrack: after all, only one of us is known for Evil Plans(TM)... * MasterZen looks at vondrack MasterZen: I am a white peaceful dove these days * vondrack looks at Master Zen * vondrack can see a white peaceful dove MasterZen: we have decided to change our name MasterZen: GoB MasterZen: Glory of Building vondrack: ah, that's cool! ) vondrack: we can found a "block" then vondrack: kinda like the old Soviet block vondrack: this would be a "builder block" MasterZen: we were thinking of Glory of Diplomacy but the acronym seemed a bit presumptous vondrack: LoL MasterZen: then there's... Glory of Micro-Managing (GoMM) vondrack: oh.. are you into MM now, too??? MasterZen: aren't we all... vondrack: I though that was GS' domain vondrack: vondrack: honestly... after learning all the MM trick in this game, I am kind of feeling bad to NOT do all the insane worker shuffling MasterZen: micro-managing... it's the "in" thing to do nowadays, get with the fad vondrack: yeah, the in thing MasterZen: it's also the boring thing when you have 20+ cities... vondrack: wanna talk about MMing 20+ cities? I could tell you STORIES about it MasterZen: lol! MasterZen: he who doth not micro-manageth doth not winneth vondrack: howgh! MasterZen: I enjoy early game MMing MasterZen: at least in SP it sets you up for the medieval by which time you are so powerful you don't have to MM anymore and win the game vondrack: ...unless you play a PBEM against other humans vondrack: in which case, you are never free to forget MMing MasterZen: yeah ...snip... chit-chat not related to PtWDG MasterZen: it's fun turning a big but crappy empire into a powerhouse vondrack: yeah, it is vondrack: actually, Lego has been much like that vondrack: we were quite big, but not stellar vondrack: it's getting better now MasterZen: we could tell by the score. What makes me wonder is why Lego didn't REX faster... vondrack: we have never risked too much vondrack: always been ready for an invasion MasterZen: true vondrack: trying to not overstretch vondrack: that's what RP did vondrack: they grabbed a lot of land, but were unable to keep it vondrack: though, to be fair, if ND and GoW invaded Lego instead of RP, we'd have some pretty darn tough time to survive MasterZen: interesting how the geopolitics of this very year are still shaped by the Vox-GS war, there are so many possibilites to think of it that war never happened vondrack: VERY true MasterZen: what would have helped Lego against us is that Lego would have gotten it's GA. It would have been quite an even war vondrack: yeah, that's true vondrack: and GS would probably grab their golden chance vondrack: attacking you from the other side MasterZen: yep, which is why we never considered it MasterZen: it would have left us totally defenseless MasterZen: however, had GS not become a superpower... there's also the question of Vox with 30+ Immortals... that's why I said, there are so many interesting ways this game could have branched off MasterZen: post-game reports and "what if" scenarious will be very fun to read ...snip... more chit-chat Session Close: Thu Feb 26 23:20:12 2004

Summary: for some reason, GoW did not expect us to grab Smith's, was thinking about building it themselves, and are now unpleasantly surprised. MZ tried to turn it into a bargaining chip, which I plain refused (as there is absolutely no "legal" ground to object what we did). I'd consider MZ's slip-up (I do not think he really wanted me to know we pissed them off by finishing Smith's, he touched the topic only after learning the news from me) another sign of that GoW is drifting away from us. Or maybe not drifting from us, but establishing themselves as a fully independent nation with goals that contradict our own goals.

	28-02-2004 03:20									#153
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Summary: for some reason, GoW did not expect us to grab Smith's, was thinking about building it themselves, and are now unpleasantly surprised. MZ tried to turn it into a bargaining chip, which I plain refused (as there is absolutely no "legal" ground to object what we did).

I don't recall such being "pissed off" on GoW's part when our Sistine project turned in to Bach's. Interesting they are now.

quote: Originally posted by vondrack I'd consider MZ's slip-up (I do not think he really wanted me to know we pissed them off by finishing Smith's, he touched the topic only after learning the news from me) another sign of that GoW is drifting away from us. Or maybe not drifting from us, but establishing themselves as a fully independent nation with goals that contradict our own goals.

Hard to say whether it was a slip-up; I doubt he would make a claim that a fair amount of GoW is pissed off unless a) it were true (meaning it had been discussed for a little while beforehand, doubtless including what should be said to Lego) or b) it was not true but it had been agreed he should say it.

As for drifting: Of course. They're a real power now thanks to their military, and will become a more balanced one once they get some building under way. I imagine ND will split from us somewhat too once they both get their own building well on the road and feel militarily secure. (Though the latter may not be for a while since they're sharing a continent.)

	12-03-2004 04:04									#154
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Thursday chat with Master Zen:

quote: Session Start: Thu Mar 11 23:01:20 2004 Session Ident: MasterZen vondrack: hi, MZ! MasterZen: heya vondrack: would you have a minute or two? vondrack: would like to talk about PtWDG a bit MasterZen: sure vondrack: last time we talked vondrack: you sounded a bit, uhm, disappointed about us finishing Smith's vondrack: even talked about Sistine again and such vondrack: could we discuss wonder builds perhaps? MasterZen: sure vondrack: based upon your reaction back then, I assume you are building a wonder in Imperial City, right? MasterZen: building, pre-building... it's all the same... vondrack: sure vondrack: may I try guessing about what the true goal is? vondrack: something that makes warmongering a wee bit easier? MasterZen: go, you get three chances vondrack: vondrack: yeah, that's right... three chances vondrack: well, we discussed that a bit in our forum vondrack: straight question: are you interested in building Universal Suffrage in Imperial City? MasterZen: perhaps MasterZen: though by definition a warmonger never suffers war weariness vondrack: vondrack: of course MasterZen: we suffer peace-weariness which is why MY DAMN TEAM IS INACTIVE!!! (bastards) vondrack: well, we would be happy to make an arrangement for you building US vondrack: it would, however, need a little bit of cooperation MasterZen: ok, in exchange for? vondrack: well, in exchange for good relations, I guess vondrack: I do not have anything particular in mind vondrack: basically, it's about this vondrack: US is 800S and needs Ind vondrack: for a prebuild in your capital vondrack: you need a 600S wonder - there is only one ATM vondrack: Sistine vondrack: we are perfectly fine with you using it as a prebuild vondrack: but there is a problem vondrack: if we, all of a sudden, finish Sistine somewhere vondrack: you lose your prebuild vondrack: and likely waste shields vondrack: maybe lots of vondrack: despite it would be "not a problem of ours" vondrack: we would rather avoid such a situation vondrack: do you have an idea how fast you can get to Industrialization? MasterZen: no clue honestly MasterZen: Aggie is our tech forecaster vondrack: any deals with GS prearranged? vondrack: not sure if you can answer, of course MasterZen: Ind we will likely research ourselves vondrack: can you get to it faster than in 10 turns? vondrack: Steam Power included vondrack: 'cause that's how long it would take us vondrack: IIRC MasterZen: I am not sure MasterZen: Interested in Medicine for Industrialization? MasterZen: us = Medicine that is vondrack: that would sound viable, I believe vondrack: unless Vox get Medicine, of course vondrack: but it should be Nationalism for them, I think vondrack: we are on PtW 1.29f vondrack: little randomness, AFAIK vondrack: ok, basically, here is the idea: vondrack: if you can get to Ind in 10t or faster vondrack: we would be interested in arranging a deal (you=Ind, we=something else) vondrack: if not, we could do it the other way round MasterZen: I don't think we can get to Ind faster vondrack: either way - we would guarantee we would not try to build US vondrack: so that we both feel safe about Ind vondrack: how's your situation with Steam Power? MasterZen: we are getting it vondrack: from GS, right? MasterZen: yes vondrack: right... perhaps then it could be doable vondrack: we'd agree to deliver Ind to you within a set timeframe vondrack: I would have to pinpoint the date vondrack: since I know how long it would take for us MasterZen: 10 turns? vondrack: but it's always a bit complicated to find what date it would be for you vondrack: yes vondrack: last turn MasterZen: 10 turns sounds nice vondrack: we were Mag in 1t vondrack: then Steam Power in 4t vondrack: and then Ind in 4t vondrack: the GA help MasterZen: obviously vondrack: if you do Medicine in the meantime, we would be happy to trade vondrack: that could work vondrack: and we would also ensure that no "accidents" happen with regard to the prebuild MasterZen: well, I'll bring this back to my inactive team... vondrack: MasterZen: (which mysteriously goes active once they smell a deal) vondrack: we have already prediscussed this in Lego vondrack: it's not a solid offer yet vondrack: but a rather well thought out idea vondrack: and one that seemed to have quite some support vondrack: if you think it's worth a shot, I can try to draft an agreement vondrack: precise dates, precise clauses vondrack: so that you can check with your build schedules and such MasterZen: but it would only be a "draft" vondrack: well, yes - something you can evaluate vondrack: and say "yes, we'd take it" or "no, to hell with it" vondrack: or perhaps change this and amend that MasterZen: ok MasterZen: sounds good vondrack: frankly, if you believe that the whole thing is "basically ok" vondrack: I do not see what kind of a problem we could encounter MasterZen: leave it up to Ghengis to find a problem... vondrack: vondrack: ok vondrack: I mentioned the whole "idea, not a solid offer" thing because we haven't precised the offer yet in Lego vondrack: we know we would like to arrange something like this MasterZen: ok MasterZen: we shall discuss it vondrack: the techs are not the exact same price... but the good will is what counts vondrack: ok, great vondrack: I will PM you tomorrow MasterZen: ok vondrack: but you can post this chat in your forum, if you like vondrack: as usually vondrack: btw... are you already researching anything? vondrack: not waiting for the Voxian free tech? vondrack: hm... I guess not vondrack: if I only thought about it a bit before asking MasterZen: when will Vox get its free tech? vondrack: we will send them Magnetism & ToG as soon as we discover Magnetism vondrack: last turn, we were 2t from Magnetism vondrack: so... 700AD: 1t, 710AD: discovered & sent, 720AD: Vox get their free tech vondrack: 700AD is this (or coming) turn MasterZen: interesting vondrack: ? MasterZen: but we'll still be doing medicine MasterZen: anyway, send me a PM and we'll contine discussing this, I have dinner to eat vondrack: cool vondrack: bon apetit! MasterZen: thanks vondrack: bye Session Close: Thu Mar 11 23:48:39 2004

	12-03-2004 04:32									#155
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Few comments:

I was not particularly fast in realizing how the board was set up. But MZ's line at the end of the chat ("but we'll still be doing medicine") made me see through it eventually (at least I believe so).

GS have a deal with GoW. GoW are to deliver Medicine, getting Steam Power from GS in return. GS gets one ToE prerequisite, having it much easier to get to SciMeth in time for their Arashi prebuild.

This also explains why GoW would not be able to get to Industrialization faster than in 10 turns, even if getting Steam Power from GS (10 turns would be a lot of time... unless, of course, they'd need to squeeze Medicine in first).

So, now... it seems that GoW would be happy to trade for Ind. They would like to trade it for Medicine, which I'd consider a pretty good idea... perhaps asking for ~100g as a symbolic balance (after all it would be us helping them avoid troubles with their US build, even agreeing to a no-US clause - or so we would pretend).

There is one problem though - Voxes may get Medicine for free, which would turn the whole deal into "ok, we let you do US and even give you free Ind to get there faster" thing. I am generous by nature, but not THAT generous.

Any ideas? It's quite late in here... and staring into the tech chart, I do not "see" a trouble-free replacement for Medicine... Actually - does anyone know for sure what the "free sci tech" rules are for PtW 1.29f?

	12-03-2004 05:09									#156
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I am led to believe it is the most expensive current tech....

	12-03-2004 06:42									#157
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I believe it is just random...

	12-03-2004 07:21									#158
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IIRC they fixed the bug in PTW 1.29f, making it truly random. 33/33/33 chance.

I would say just include a clause in the deal that makes it all void if Vox gets Medicine as their free tech. We're being a little generous on the details of this one, so I'm sure they'll understand and be okay with it.

	12-03-2004 14:05									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep IIRC they fixed the bug in PTW 1.29f, making it truly random. 33/33/33 chance.

Now that Kloreep mentions it, I believe he is right. That also explains why I distinctly recall we almost "knew" Voxes would have gotten Monotheism back then... the game started under 1.27f and patched to 1.29f only after going medieval.

I searched Poly for relevant info and indeed found a thread about changes between versions - Aeson posted about the probability being now not weighed in favour of Nationalism.

quote: I would say just include a clause in the deal that makes it all void if Vox gets Medicine as their free tech. We're being a little generous on the details of this one, so I'm sure they'll understand and be okay with it.

Hm, that's perhaps a good idea... the fact is that all we get from this deal (more or less) is that we do not piss GoW off, re-securing Sistine - which, considering we have little to fear from them military-wise, is not all that much.

I guess we should send them a draft with a clause voiding the whole deal in case Vox get Medicine, note that we would prefer finding out a suitable replacement clause - and ask GoW to come with one up.

I will put the draft together today. I do not think we need to be hasty on this one - GoW is doing Medicine and cannot get to Industrialization faster than us (which MZ admitted). Now they know what we plan to do... so it would be in their interest to work the deal out. I promised MZ I would send a draft today, so I guess I should, but will do so only much later today.

Also - now that we know... what about approaching GS and offering them a fine deal on Industrialization, too? Asking, say, Electricity in return, including some gold as a balance? Either at a date they would consider ok (to make them feel safe about their ToE beeline) or as soon as both techs are discovered, including a no-ToE clause?

	12-03-2004 18:51									#160
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It might be worth it to approach GS about a deal. They probably know we can't beat them to ToE, so a no-build deal might not work, but a tech deal could be beneficial.

	12-03-2004 19:12									#161
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX It might be worth it to approach GS about a deal. They probably know we can't beat them to ToE, so a no-build deal might not work, but a tech deal could be beneficial.

Actually, I mentioned the no-build clause only to make it possible to arrange the tech deal with GS, not to get something in exchange for it. Nobody in his right mind would trade a wonder-tech to his competitor, unless assured it would not be used to build the wonder in question.

GS cannot be sure about us having no prebuild - some of our interior cities, incl. Karina & Red Bricks (they do not know how many they are and how good they are) cannot be investigated by them (you can only investigate cities you can see on your world map - and you cannot steal your opponent's world map w/o having a spy with him).

	13-03-2004 13:44									#162
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I am going to PM Master Zen with the following message later today:

quote: Hello, MZ! Here comes the draft I promised on Thursday (sorry, did not get to it on Friday as planned): quote: Legoland-GoW Industrialization/US trade agreement 1) Legoland agrees to provide GoW with Industrialization no later than in 800AD (Turn 196). GoW agrees to not resell/trade/gift Industrialization to any other party. 2) Legoland agrees to not build Universal Suffrage as long as GoW remains in the game (though using Universal Suffrage as a prebuild for a different construction project is allowed). 3) GoW agrees to provide Legoland with Medicine no later than in 800AD. Legoland agrees to not resell/trade/gift Medicine to any other party. 4) GoW agrees to provide Legoland with a sum of 100g to balance the beaker cost difference between Industrialization and Medicine. 5) The trade shall happen as follows: in 790AD (Turn 195), Legoland shall send Industrialization to GoW as 'accepted'. GoW shall receive it in 800AD (Turn 196) and immediately send Medicine and 100g back to Legoland as 'accepted'. 6) This trade agreement is null and void if Vox Controli receive Medicine as their free scientific tech in 720AD. No NDA periods specified, though we wouldn't object the usual 20-turn NDAs. It's effectively the same, as with the quick tech progress now, 20-turns is pretty much like forever... The final voiding clause sounds harsher than we would like it to sound; the thing is that if Vox get Medicine as their free scientific tech, we shall get it as a payment for Magnetism and Theory of Gravity. Obviously, we would be getting no value out of the trade with you then, so we'd want to renegotiate it. We tried to think of an alternative solution, but knowing little about your economy and plans, we came to the conclusion we would leave that up to you. So, feel free to replace the voiding clause with a clause specifying an alternative deal... Also... you can consider this draft sort of a "letter of intent". We do not mind waiting for the Voxian free tech to be known, signing the trade agreement only then. If they do get Medicine, we rework the deal to account for that, if they don't, we simply sign the pre-negotiated stuff. Best regards, vondrack, on behalf of Legoland

	14-03-2004 03:11									#164
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Message eventually PMed to Hot_Enamel, as MZ's PMbox was full.

	14-03-2004 16:28									#165
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX It might be worth it to approach GS about a deal.

I am still hesistating about how to handle this... an obvious deal would be trading Industrialization + gold for Electricity. However, the "immediate benefits" of Ind (factories) are, IMHO, way better than those of Electricity (irrigating w/o fresh water).

I'm coming around to thinking of letting GS come to us, rather than the other way round - hopefully improving our bargaining position. Let's see: we do Steam Power in 4t, then Ind in 4t again, trading it to GoW, securing it thus to ourselves. We get occupied with laying our RRBB (railroad backbone) - which means a different focus from setting up our Southern cities to grow fast. Besides, we do not have aqueducts there anyway... so pop 6 max it is (which we already are at almost everywhere).

Vox would be a different story, but they will have to arrange their own Electricity deal with GS anyway...

So, I'm open to ideas and suggestions... would actually love to hear some. But for the moment, I personally believe we might be better off waiting silently.

	21-03-2004 20:28									#166
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With Voxes getting Nationalism, we can proceed with our pre-discussed Ind for Med deal with GoW. I have re-sent the proposal, omitting the clause dealing with the possibility of Vox getting Medicine.

quote: Hello, Mater Zen! Fortunately, Vox did not get Medicine as their free industrial tech, so we can proceed with the deal we discussed recently: quote: Legoland-GoW Industrialization/US trade agreement 1) Legoland agrees to provide GoW with Industrialization no later than in 800AD (Turn 196). GoW agrees to not resell/trade/gift Industrialization to any other party. 2) Legoland agrees to not build Universal Suffrage as long as GoW remains in the game (though using Universal Suffrage as a prebuild for a different construction project is allowed). 3) GoW agrees to provide Legoland with Medicine no later than in 800AD. Legoland agrees to not resell/trade/gift Medicine to any other party. 4) GoW agrees to provide Legoland with a sum of 100g to balance the beaker cost difference between Industrialization and Medicine. 5) The trade shall happen as follows: in 790AD (Turn 195), Legoland shall send Industrialization to GoW as 'accepted'. GoW shall receive it in 800AD (Turn 196) and immediately send Medicine and 100g back to Legoland as 'accepted'. This is no longer just a draft, it's an official proposal now. Best regards, vondrack, on behalf of Legoland

	24-03-2004 11:08									#167
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Master Zen wasted no words, but...

quote: Agreed. quote: Hello, Master Zen! Fortunately, Vox did not get Medicine as their free industrial tech, so we can proceed with the deal we have discussed recently: quote: Legoland-GoW Industrialization/US/Medicine trade agreement 1) Legoland agrees to provide GoW with Industrialization no later than in 800AD (Turn 196). GoW agrees to not resell/trade/gift Industrialization to any other party. 2) Legoland agrees to not build Universal Suffrage as long as GoW remains in the game (though using Universal Suffrage as a prebuild for a different construction project is allowed). 3) GoW agrees to provide Legoland with Medicine no later than in 800AD. Legoland agrees to not resell/trade/gift Medicine to any other party. 4) GoW agrees to provide Legoland with a sum of 100g to balance the beaker cost difference between Industrialization and Medicine. 5) The trade shall happen as follows: in 790AD (Turn 195), Legoland shall send Industrialization to GoW as 'accepted'. GoW shall receive it in 800AD (Turn 196) and immediately send Medicine and 100g back to Legoland as 'accepted'. This is no longer just a draft, it's an official proposal now. Best regards, vondrack, on behalf of Legoland

	10-06-2004 10:02									#168
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Sad that I had to go back to the "Last 100 days" to find this thread Anyway, tentative chat scheduled with Master Zen for tomorrow night, sometime after 9:30 EST. I'll try to get more specifics in case anyone else wants to show up

	12-06-2004 14:55									#169
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Zargon, have you got in touch with MZ/GoW?

	13-06-2004 20:54									#170
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Well, MZ never showed up on Thursday night like he said he would, and I haven't seen him Friday or Saturday. I'm PMing him to try again for tonight, so we'll see what happens with that...

	15-06-2004 09:10									#171
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Chatted with MZ tonight. No log, sorry, but both of us got disconnected so many times we had it spread through multiple windows

Anyway, he was decidedly vague about putting a deal together. They have a deal for Sci Meth worked out with "someone" already. He never said directly that they were going for Flight, but the fact that he was willing to discuss a deal for it seems pretty confirming. He was interested in Espionage, but wasn't sure what they could trade for it. Gold, apparently, is not something they want right now, either.

So, there you have it. Not much movement on that front. MZ said he'd take the idea of a trade back to GoW, but I doubt we'll be hearing back from them anytime soon...

	15-06-2004 12:06									#172
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Hm, pretty much what we've expected then.

Oh, well... we are on our own. Just Voxes with us.

But thanks for giving it a try, Z!