09-03-2003 19:09									#1
	GoW contact & catch-up deal Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

OK, first things first - here is a log of my chat with GhengisFarb I finished just few minutes ago:

quote: Session Start: Sun Mar 09 13:43:16 2003 Session Ident: GhengisFarb vondrack: hello GhengisFarb: Hey one of our galleys made contact with your galley vondrack: good vondrack: glad that our isolation finally ends vondrack: we've been getting a bit nervous about it vondrack: but I am surprised we are not much behind tech-wise... GhengisFarb: We have Mathematics, Code of Laws, Horseback Riding, and will have Literature next turn vondrack: Do you have Philosophy? GhengisFarb: i think you have been able to build a large enough civ base that you can research faster than the rest of us vondrack: not sure about that GhengisFarb: No, I think GS and Voz are currently researching it. vondrack: we started just North of a big jungle vondrack: so we have been having tough times developing GhengisFarb: Roleplay is doing Polytheism, ND is doing Commerce and we were going to start on Construction this turn vondrack: fortunately, a river helped us to do acceptably commerce-wise GhengisFarb: Rivers can make a huge difference vondrack: interesting info about the research "assignments" among Bobian civs GhengisFarb: Do you want to trade world maps? vondrack: do you trade all that stuff among yourselves? vondrack: well, re: maps vondrack: I am sorry but that is out of question vondrack: a poll binds me to rule such a possibility out vondrack: the reason is GhengisFarb: Yes, although Vox isn't very trade interested, GS and Vox are both somewhat isolationist and refuse to trade maps vondrack: that as I said, we started in a pretty crappy location vondrack: our only chance is to expand beyond that jungle vondrack: and many of our members feel vondrack: that revealing our map to anyone might lead to another team plopping a city on our landmass vondrack: we would certainly be able to push anyone back to the sea vondrack: but we want to avoid any wars vondrack: being builders vondrack: so, unfortunately, world map cannot be a subject of a trade GhengisFarb: That's a real possibility but it will probably happen anyway now that galleys are widely available. We have no more room on our continent for cities vondrack: well, if it happens, we will have no choice but to declare war vondrack: it would be a matter of our very survival vondrack: regarding the trade... vondrack: we seem to have a technology you still lack GhengisFarb: Which is? vondrack: we got Philosophy from a hut few turns ago GhengisFarb: vondrack: not the most costly tech, admittedly... vondrack: would you be interested in trading for that one? vondrack: re: that "" vondrack: we have been lucky wit huts vondrack: got some techs vondrack: that's why we are doing so-so and not completely behind GhengisFarb: Most difinitely, you can give us Philosophy, and we can give you Horseback, Mathematics, and Code of Laws now, and Literature next turn vondrack: hmmm, that sounds interesting GhengisFarb: That leaves us with Construction and Commerce to get to the next age and Republic and Monarchy vondrack: yeah... do you have any deals pre-arranged for those? GhengisFarb: ND has been researching Commerce for awhile so they probably have quite a bit invested in it vondrack: they willing to trade for it? vondrack: it's much like with us and Literature... we are 5 turns from discovering it, I think GhengisFarb: Willing to trade Commerce? They have been a fairly easy team to deal with. vondrack: really? GhengisFarb: But there's no point in wasting 5 turns of beakers if you can have it now. vondrack: that's right vondrack: well, I believe that Philosophy for Math+HBR+CoL+Lit would be a fine deal vondrack: you could tech-whore Philosophy around GhengisFarb: Can we include a clause that if Lego ever trades there map (territory or world) GoW will get to trade maps with Lego on that same turn? vondrack: plus you could sell our contact to others vondrack: re: clause vondrack: I believe we could vondrack: we are really determined to reveal it to nobody vondrack: so if you want to have this guaranteed, I guess we would be willing to agree GhengisFarb: I can understand, I would like to be able to have access to it if someone else gains access vondrack: sure, I believe such a clause would be ok GhengisFarb: Would you be interested in purchasing our world map? vondrack: quite frankly, I do not think it would be of too much value for us vondrack: we do not really intend to expand overseas vondrack: we seek no conflicts vondrack: and we do realize than landing on Bob or Estonia would inevitably cause one GhengisFarb: true vondrack: just like if another team landed on Legos vondrack: so all our galley is bound to vondrack: is make contacts vondrack: once we make contacts vondrack: or get contacts vondrack: our galley shall turn and sail back home GhengisFarb: I have a feeling you will have contact with everyone on your next turn. vondrack: oh? vondrack: you intend to trade our contact around? vondrack: we would certainly not mind vondrack: we've been discussing that part of your initial proposal vondrack: brb GhengisFarb: Yes, I am holding onto the save untill we finalize the distrubution of conact with Lego. vondrack: back vondrack: ...proposal and the general consensus was that we shall let you make whatever you can out of selling it around vondrack: no shares vondrack: after all vondrack: it is in our best interest to have those contacts GhengisFarb: That sounds fine. You give us Philosophy for Horse, Math, and CoL this turn. GhengisFarb: Next turn we gift you Literature. GhengisFarb: Which tech are you going to research next, so I can coordinate to research a different one GhengisFarb: With CoL you can research Republic your next turn vondrack: that sounds fine, yes... though I have to make clear that this deal would still be subject to approval by our team - we are running sort of "democracy" in Lego. But I personally promise to do whatever necessary to make this deal come true. vondrack: re: next research vondrack: we haven't decided yet vondrack: quite frankly vondrack: we did not expect to be able to trade Philosophy vondrack: so there will be a discussion vondrack: but I would consider Republic pretty possible vondrack: would you be interested in that? GhengisFarb: Yes, then we can research Constuction, could we agree to trade the two once we complete them? vondrack: that I would be unable to confirm ATM... that would be too much beyond my authorization vondrack: but I can certainly propose that GhengisFarb: Sounds good. vondrack: btw, we heard rumours about a new war brewing on Bob vondrack: is that true? GhengisFarb: ?? What war, I thought everyone was being nice nice vondrack: honestly, the info came from a non-Bob civ, so I have no idea how good the info is vondrack: that's why I am checking vondrack: on an interesting note... have you noticed that RPers are building something in Madrid? vondrack: either units or a wonder GhengisFarb: ND is fairly powerful now, and Roleplay is concerned that either they or GoW is next on the hit list vondrack: Madrid has been at pop 5, not growing, for several turns now vondrack: I'd say RPers are right... GhengisFarb: I don't think anyone is building wonders on Bob, we were planning to start one soon. vondrack: that would mean they are building troops...??? GhengisFarb: My guess is they are amassing troops to go to war with ND, either offensively or defensively. vondrack: but then... if I were them, I would amass troops, that's right GhengisFarb: I kinda hinted to them that ND could be aggressive to slow down their rexing and it actually worked. vondrack: hehe vondrack: you like RPers? GhengisFarb: I think I made them paranoid though GhengisFarb: They are okay but tend to ask a little much in their trade agreements GhengisFarb: They are very much prone to spreading rumors and counterplots, they were constantly doing that when Lux was alive vondrack: hehe, my impression vondrack: but I have to admit that we got lots of valuable intel from them vondrack: so it would not be nice of me to talk bad of them GhengisFarb: Oh yes, early on they gave us a lot of info. How many luxuries are on your contienent and what are they if you don't mind my asking. We have Ivory, Wine, Spice, Gems, and Silk on Bob, with GoW having all the Wine and RP potentially having all the Ivory GhengisFarb: The rest are somewhat scattered. vondrack: ahhh... luxuries... we got screwed on them vondrack: just Dyes vondrack: but a couple of them GhengisFarb: That would mean GS and Vox are sitting on Furs and Incense vondrack: that's because of that lovely jungle here... vondrack: quite likely, yes vondrack: would roughly match the number of civs per landmass vondrack: brb GhengisFarb: The part of Bob that juts towards Lego in the south (you can see the hint of a coast) is where the bulk of the Gems are. You could easily drop a city down there and get some gems as its all mountains and a few hills vondrack: back vondrack: hehe, yeah, I can imagine that Togas would be extremely happy having our outpost plopped there ) vondrack: but I hope we will be able to trade resources for luxuries GhengisFarb: Are there any Iron resources in some remote area of Legos, we are despartely in need of an Iron resource vondrack: perhaps we might trade iron to you... we have iron resources close to our existing cities vondrack: the problem is GhengisFarb: Oh, I was hoping there might be one is some godawful backwater vondrack: that until Navigation GhengisFarb: Not that we can trade resources until Astronomy vondrack: I do not see how you could use the resource that is here vondrack: even if you had a city of yours here vondrack: is that possible? using Harbors? GhengisFarb: Doesn't Astro allow trade over sea squares vondrack: yes GhengisFarb: Then Nav allows it over ocean GhengisFarb: are we not connected by sea? vondrack: but Astro is still way into the future, isn't it? vondrack: let me see vondrack: yes, sea tile route does exist GhengisFarb: Okay , my team is okay with the deal we were taling about, but they want a clause that we have excluvie rights to trade Philosophy to the other civs in return for giving you all the techs GhengisFarb: Let me send you a pm. vondrack: ok vondrack: I will tell my team about the proposal vondrack: not sure about that exclusivity thing, but it may be acceptable vondrack: perhaps limiting it to a certain number of turns would make it easier to accept GhengisFarb: It kinda a technicality because even if your galley went straight for another civ you wouldn't contact anyone else for 5- 6 turns and we would have traded it with everyone by then anyway vondrack: that's correct... however, you said you planned to trade our contact around, so that confused me a bit GhengisFarb: The reason they are wanting it is so we can make sure EVERYONE has contact with you this turn and we can work out Philosophy deals later. GhengisFarb: As opposed to holding out contact with you until they agree to a deal with Philosophy vondrack: yes if you can guarantee we will get contacts to all other civs, I believe exclusivity would be possible GhengisFarb: I'll include that in the pm. vondrack: mind you though, I will not be able to sign the deal before like midnight GMT - most our members are from the US vondrack: and I need to wait for their feedback GhengisFarb: But you can't tell anyone that. We don't want them knowing we are trying to get everyone contact with you, they may drop the amount of their offers. vondrack: I could very soon cease to be the President if making a deal like this on my own vondrack: just FYI vondrack: Voxes, GS, and RPers know we are coming GhengisFarb: But you need these negotiating powers to make the best deals. vondrack: we told them right after crossing the sea vondrack: but they now, at the same time vondrack: that we would not be able to make a direct contact sooner than in 6-7 turns GhengisFarb: Our most profitable deals are usually made by me reacting to a sudden opportunity. vondrack: well... can't do anything about that... that's how things are done in Lego GhengisFarb: That's based on your galley continuing towards the other civs. If you keep going along the coast in the north you will make contact with Vox then GS on their island. GhengisFarb: ND is south of us and Roleplay is south of them vondrack: yes, we have a very good picture of where everybody is vondrack: the plan currently was to go northwards, along the northern coast of Bob, heading for Vox/GS vondrack: but if we get contacts, there will be little incentive to go there actually GhengisFarb: True vondrack: so we would probably withdraw Galleyleo Galleylei back home vondrack: back to iron... do you have any excess luxuries you could trade for our iron? GhengisFarb: We got all the Wine in the world vondrack: I will be honest - it is in our best interest to help you against ND, which is (in our eyes) becoming too much of a threat vondrack: so we would probably be happy to trade iron for something vondrack: and luxuries come to my mind first GhengisFarb: Everyone concentrates on ND, but RP is in a far better postion to build a powerful war machine vondrack: do they have better lands? GhengisFarb: MUCH better lands GhengisFarb: ND is IN the junglt GhengisFarb: jungle vondrack: didn't know that vondrack: and they are not industrious, right? GhengisFarb: Rp is in a lush river valley with half of the continents land area and 90% of the contients luxuries. GhengisFarb: They are going to be a trade and luxury powerhouse unless ND takes a chunk of them ( which would pretty much balance things out again) vondrack: I see vondrack: which kinda puts yourself and ND into the same boat, doesn't it? GhengisFarb: Not really, we started in a LUSH grassland hill river valley area, with five really good citysites vondrack: so the lack of iron is the only thing that makes you sort of weak, right? GhengisFarb: Yes, but we don't really HAVE to have it until Chivalry vondrack: hmmm... I see... seems like we should have a trade route ready once sea tiles become usable vondrack: we would not be able to send you our swordsmen, but we could certainly provide you with one of our irons GhengisFarb: .Hmm, might you be interested in a Warrior exchange (joint military maneuvers) vondrack: not sure... it has not been discussed so far vondrack: is that about GL/GA production? vondrack: well, I guess that's it for the moment vondrack: I will wait for your PM and post it in our forums ASAP vondrack: once I get a "go ahead" from my teammates, I will PM you back

I will add my comments in the next post, so that you can read through the log while I am commenting.

	09-03-2003 19:13									#2
	Glory of Lego Treaty of 1300 BC Enter the AD-FREE zone

And this just came from GhengisFarb - the official proposal:

Glory of Lego Treaty of 1300 BC

quote: Treaty and Trades: GoW agrees to give Lego: Horseback Riding, Code of Laws, and Mathematics in return for Philosophy this turn. (GoW will offer its techs, on Lego's turn it will offer Philosophy and click 'accept" then send) Next turn Gow will gift Lego Literature and click "accept". GoW will aquire contact with all other existing civs for Lego during the next turn in return for which Lego grants GoW exclusive rights to trade Philosophy to the other civs. GoW understands that Lego does not wish to trade its world map for fear of others claiming land on Legos but Lego agrees that on the turn it first trades/shares its world map with another civ that GoW will be allowed to trade world maps with Lego also.

Comment ASAP, the sooner we can get this done, the better.

	09-03-2003 19:44									#3
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

And now my comments.

I guess nobody will be surprised to see me support the current treaty draft, as I have been the one negotiating. But let me add a couple of points, why I believe we should take the deal:

1. No need to explore further
Getting all contacts, G.G. can turn immediately back, taking care of transporting Angus from Legos Minor to the Mystery Island. We would not need to build another galley in Panama - we could instead build barracks there, spitting out a couple of veteran horsemen and upgrading our warriors to swordsmen. That would ensure we would be able to swiftly wipe out anyone landing on Legos Major.

2. Ability to research Republic very soon
If what GF says is true (and it sounds reasonable), nobody is researching The Republic right now. That means that if we start immediately (or the turn after), we will get it before anyone else does, trading it around for the rest of missing ancient techs. That would complete our tech race catch-up.

3. Spending no money on contacts/techs
For just the cost of Philosophy (6*24=144 beakers) which we got from a hut, we would get techs worth (10+5+8)*24=552 beakers + 5 turns of Literature research worth of 133 more beakers - that is a total of 685 beakers for 144 beakers. Dunno how about you, but it strikes me as an awesome deal... not mentioning the fact that we would get contacts to all other teams within two turns, which effectively puts us "into the loop", allowing us to fully use our great research potential.

4. Starting a good relationship with GoW
This is perhaps more of my hope than a fact, but I believe that if we act like a good, easy to deal with trading partner, GoW will double-think before going hostile towards us. They are apparently completely happy about this deal. They now know we will not tolerate any landings on our landmass and they now know we have iron we can trade to them. If I were them, I would rather focus on improving the cooperation rather than on pissing us off with a futile attempt to plop a city of theirs on Legos (they may even think we already have swords... ). From our point of view, the deal is just great, so why push it and try making few more gold? Let's be easy and nice.

5. Ability to pop our remaining huts immediately
Catching up tech-wise within two turns would allow us to pop the huts without delays, hopefully getting one more tech others do not have yet.

6. Not pissing anyone else off
The deal is so apparently fine that I seriously doubt anyone could feel pissed off by the fact that we signed it. Making one friend and no enemies is something to be considered, too.

And last, but not least - I do realize that we might squeeze a bit more of GoW... however, at the risk that Philosophy would cease to be our exclusive (GS or Voxes seem to be researching it currently... and as it is a cheap tech, they will likely get it soon) and at the risk that GoW will grow tired of prolonged negotiations and develop a negative attitude towards us. As they are currently the only other civ in position (and with a good reason) to make troubles to us, I would prefer being nice to them... at least until we get a firm hold on all of our landmass.

PLEASE, speak your mind ASAP - the sooner we are able to give any answer to GoW, the better.

	09-03-2003 19:59									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Sounds great to me!

You might want to set up a poll for confirmation but I would be surprised if anyone opposed.

Just curious as I have never traded for a tech that I was currently researching - what happens to our accumulated beakers for Literature if we trade for it? Do they disappear or can be used for another tech?

If we get those civs , we can head straight for Republic - at our current rate of beakers we should be able to get it in around 20 or so turns. Despite the beaker difference I wouldn't mind then trading Republic for Currency (Commerce) as GoW is certainly giving us a lot of tech for not much on our part this time.

I would suggest that this tech trade may eliminate the need for the Gr Lib especially if GS and GoW are willing to continue trading tech with us in the future. If so, we should abandon building a wonder at Panama for now and perhaps get a galley, barracks and settler at least. That should take 76 shields (about 11-13 turns when we get that iron working). Then we can decide whether to go for a medieval wonder such as Sistine or a library next.

	09-03-2003 20:33									#5
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I agree, go for it.

	09-03-2003 21:24									#6
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I also give it a stamp of approval! Will you contact them Vondrack, or do you want me to do it?

	09-03-2003 21:34									#7
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX I also give it a stamp of approval! Will you contact them Vondrack, or do you want me to do it?

I believe once Nimitz, Kloreep, Tiberius, and lmtoops have their say, too (have I missed anyone fairly active? if so, accept my apologies), you can officially accept the treaty on our behalf (sending a PM to GhengisFarb). However, wait until midnight GMT, please. I know it's probably not necessary, as the deal is really good, but I would prefer our active members to be okay with it prior to signing. And I also don't want to look too eager to take the deal...

	09-03-2003 21:53									#8
	Got spare money?

Check. If you'd like, I can message GF and ask if he doesn't mind holding the turn until we can reach a decision, up or down. I can tell him we'll have an answer by 12:00 GMT.

	09-03-2003 22:20									#9
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Check. If you'd like, I can message GF and ask if he doesn't mind holding the turn until we can reach a decision, up or down. I can tell him we'll have an answer by 12:00 GMT.

I do not think it is necessary. I told GF we would need time until midnight to accept the deal. And they need time to arrange for our contact to be distributed among other teams anyway... just wait until midnight and then send the officially signed treaty.

	09-03-2003 22:24									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Got it. It's my mom's birthday today, so I may out to dinner with my family at 12:00 GMT. If I haven't posted a message here saying I've sent it by 12:15 GMT, could someone please go ahead and do it? I don't want to hold up things any longer than necessary!

	09-03-2003 22:27									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Got it. It's my mom's birthday today, so I may out to dinner with my family at 12:00 GMT. If I haven't posted a message here saying I've sent it by 12:15 GMT, could someone please go ahead and do it? I don't want to hold up things any longer than necessary!

OK, I will take care of that, no worries.

	09-03-2003 23:01									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Very good treaty! Honestly I wouldn't have hoped for such good terms! In an eyeblick we are back techwise and our isolation is over.

So other than agreeing with the treaty, some observations:

1. We must build the Pyramids in Jackson to accelerate our REXing

2. We should build baracks in Panama and lots of units after that; mercenaries, swords and maybe horses; we are probably among the weakest teams (if not the weakest) militarily speaking and once we will have contact they will know that.

3. We should stop our research and put the science slider on 0 for the next 2 turns; already researched beakers are lost anyway, so at least we should make some money for future upgrades

4. Next turn we get those techs, we reseach Republic full speed ahead; this was our goal anyway; once the wonder is ready, we change government

Interesting to note that GoW finds the RP to be bigger threat than ND, eh? We might see some interesting developements on their continent soon.

My biggest concern is that someone (or more than one team) will try to land on Lego, despite our warnings. Although this won't happen soon, we need now to concentrate on building cities and troops.

	09-03-2003 23:14									#13
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Attention! Don't email GhengisFarb, rather PM him or whatever other method. See his warning from the main PtW demo forum (his yahoo account was hacked).

	10-03-2003 02:39									#14
	Put an end to popups!

OK, I feel really tired today and would like to go to bed early (plus, I have to wake up early in the morning). As I am not sure Zargon would be here to send the "signed" treaty, I will PM it to GhengisFarb myself within 20 minutes.

Those that didn't get a chance to have a say, accept my apologies... but this treaty is far too important to Lego to jeopardize it by unnecessary delays. As I can see only approvals here so far, I assume it is not that daring to expect even the others be happy with it.

	10-03-2003 07:07									#15
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I'm happy with it it looks much in our favor.

	10-03-2003 21:25									#16
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I was away all weekend.

I support the agreement. It is a very good deal.

	11-03-2003 10:11									#17
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Those that didn't get a chance to have a say, accept my apologies... but this treaty is far too important to Lego to jeopardize it by unnecessary delays. As I can see only approvals here so far, I assume it is not that daring to expect even the others be happy with it.

And I approve of it.

	11-03-2003 12:06									#18
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To the good relations between GOW and legoland

Gee that is a pretty genorous treaty.Looks like we are on the road to making an ally.

	11-03-2003 20:27									#19
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Some interesting info (after studying the advisors), I wasn't sure where to put it:

1. The GoW has built some sort of cultural improvement. Their culture is stronger than hours and it is inceasing faster than hours
2. In the latest turns, they have gained in score and power against us, but this is no surprise, as we were building our wonder, granary and barracks instead of settlers
2. The military advisor is telling us that we have a strong military compared to the GoW !!! Now this is a surprise, IMHO. Furthermore, DeepO from the GS said in his last message that all 3 civs from BOB have stronger military than the GS, which means we are much stronger than the GS!!! Now either the mil. advidor is completely drunk or misinformed or both J/K, this is great

	11-03-2003 20:37									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius 1. The GoW has built some sort of cultural improvement. Their culture is stronger than hours and it is inceasing faster than ours

Agreed, must be a temple in their capital, as it remains the #1 city in Top 5 even with pop 2 only (temple, because the improvement was built so long ago that it could not have been a library).

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius 2. The military advisor is telling us that we have a strong military compared to the GoW !!! Now this is a surprise, IMHO. Furthermore, DeepO from the GS said in his last message that all 3 civs from BOB have stronger military than the GS, which means we are much stronger than the GS!!! Now either the mil. advidor is completely drunk or misinformed or both J/K, this is great

Yes, I agree, this is absolutely awesome. It should help lessen the threat of an invasion, hopefully, as our words shall not be taken lightly. Should also help misleading others regarding our situation and the size of our landmass - so many units suggest that we do not really have that much room to expand...

	12-03-2003 19:34									#21
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Hmm... I was thinking about nominating us in the public forum (under the post-game ceremony thread) for "First to Sail Across the Seas" award. This would serve the dual purposes of letting all the teams know we've gone naval, as well as just giving us something cool to lay claim to Anyway, what does everyone think?

	12-03-2003 19:46									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Sounds good. How about a Daily Blueprint editorial about the issue?

	12-03-2003 20:04									#23
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That's next. It's just my hands are killing me from typing at work, so I've had a hard time motivating myself to do it at home

	12-03-2003 20:31									#24
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OK, another chatlog... I tried to settle the problem with GoW, GS, & CoL... dunno if it is going to work, but at least I tried. Read it anyway, some garbage there, but some interesting info, too (worker/slave exchange, GoW intentions regarding settlements on Mystery Island and our landmass, their production base...).

quote: vondrack: btw... since you are from GoW (right?) and we are here alone... Donegeal: yes??? vondrack: seems we have run into a problem with GS Donegeal: go figure... vondrack: we talked to them about a possible future cooperation on the Republic research Donegeal: before you start anything... I am acting in no official position... vondrack: of course Donegeal: ok... go on... vondrack: I am just trying to find out what's going on vondrack: and they seemed to be quite upset about the fact that we are supposed to get CoL as part of our "first contact" deal vondrack: was there any "no whoring" clause in effect? Donegeal: hmmm... GS is mostly quiet... we don't here alot from them.. Donegeal: hmmm... I don't remember... let me go look... vondrack: it seemed to me as if they suggested we were not supposed to get CoL from you due to a "no whoring clause" (had I known there could be a problem, we would not approach them... but GF indicated nothing like that, so I had no idea things could get messy by talking to GS) Donegeal: oh ****... did we give you CoL already? vondrack: keep this to yourself or within your team, please - I may be mistaken and they might have been upset about something completely or slightly else... but my impression was like that vondrack: well, it was part of the deal vondrack: and if you played your turn and stood in your word vondrack: you should have given us CoL, yes Donegeal: yep... we keep our word. That is the entire basis for playing merc... Donegeal: crap.... Donegeal: crap, crap, crap... vondrack: so, I gather - oversight on your side, right? Donegeal: not me personally... but yes. vondrack: ok, here is a suggestion: vondrack: go talk to GS Donegeal: I think I have some work to do. vondrack: tell them you made a mistake unintentionally vondrack: and try working out some fair solution vondrack: I am quite sure that will help Donegeal: It is even post right next to each other (our deal with GS and the deal with you) vondrack: things happen... vondrack: but I really suggest you do not wait for them start jumping on you and go ahead, apologizing Donegeal: It says right there, no-trade clause... This is completly unintetional... I ask you, if you have not played your turn, and we did send you CoL to not accept it. Please. vondrack: well, that would be a problem vondrack: first vondrack: it is your turn now vondrack: you offered CoL, Math & HBR vondrack: and sent vondrack: we countered with Philosophy vondrack: accepted vondrack: and sent back Donegeal: I'll go see if I can stop it...****... Donegeal: so you have CoL already? vondrack: now you are supposed to accept Donegeal: ****! **** **** ****! vondrack: quite frankly, if this deal gets cancelled, WE would be quite upset Donegeal: I know... but we might not have a choice... vondrack: that's what I am trying to suggest vondrack: talk to GS Donegeal: ****!!!! vondrack: and try working out a deal Donegeal: I gotta go and start posting... vondrack: they may be happy getting our contact vondrack: they may be happy getting some money vondrack: dunno Donegeal: later... vondrack: we DID tell them we would prefer them letting it be Donegeal: (I will still be here, But I won't come back here for awhile) vondrack: k vondrack: not sure now if I put it all right... vondrack: so I will briefly sum it up one more time: vondrack: 1) if you break your treaty with GS, they will get pissed off vondrack: 2) if you break the deal with us, tbh, we will get pissed off vondrack: 3) the two deals are incompatible vondrack: so, the best solution would probably be vondrack: to accomodate GS for the breach vondrack: giving them our contact for free or giving them some money or something vondrack: that would hopefully make everybody happy vondrack: I understand that it would cost you something vondrack: but then... vondrack: mistakes are not free of charge vondrack: Donegeal: back... I have sent PMs to all active team members and made a couple of posts in the forum. vondrack: k vondrack: what do think the solution is going to be? Donegeal: I, unfortunatly have no authority reguarding GS. Donegeal: ... and no team members are on line... vondrack: k... tell GF to PM me or catch me on IRC when he has a minute, please Donegeal: ok... I will vondrack: quite frankly, we would not be very happy if our deal went through the window Donegeal: please... remember, this was unintentional. A complete mistake. Donegeal: ... and I know how it happened. vondrack: I understand... but still, we acted assuming the deal was signed vondrack: and if it is recalled now... Donegeal: when we signed the deal with GS, we all said to ourselves "A no-trade clause involving CoL is unimportant as the tech is only needed for Rep and getting out of the Age. No big deal" and we never thought about it a second time. vondrack: yeah... I thought something like that Donegeal: ****!!! Donegeal: this sucks... Donegeal: oh, BTW, I have been appointed as the Ambassador to Lego... vondrack: vondrack: nice to meet you Donegeal: hehe.... you too vondrack: anything to talk about? Donegeal: What a way to start a job, huh? vondrack: LoL Donegeal: actually... there is lots to talk about. vondrack: ok, if it is just talking... go ahead Donegeal: no... I am going to start planting some seeds here... Donegeal: what function do you have with Lego? vondrack: seeds? random seeds? vondrack: nothing really important vondrack: the President vondrack: Donegeal: ok... I guess I can lower myself to that level... vondrack: LoL vondrack: appreciate that Donegeal: I had a brain storm the other day that my teammates liked... vondrack: let's see if I like it, too... Donegeal: I'll tell you some free info here... vondrack: k Donegeal: GoW has only 3, maybe 4 workers (one is a Luxian slave named "Trip" ) Donegeal: so we have 3/4 workers... about how many does Lego have? Donegeal: just estimate... I don't need excate vondrack: 5, if I am not mistaken vondrack: maybe 6, not sure now vondrack: Jason, Leopold, Jimbo, Charlie, Rover Donegeal: ok, great... when you get to Rep, how much is that going to cost you? vondrack: 5 money Donegeal: yep... same here... vondrack: not a big deal Donegeal: What I proposed, is why pay that at all? vondrack: I can see where you aim... Donegeal: What about swapping workers... vondrack: but that slows them suckers down by 50% Donegeal: ... and... Donegeal: both of us build a "Worker pump" next to our capitols that do nothing but push out workers trading them to each other the same turn the worker is complete. Donegeal: A good pump can push our a worker every other turn. vondrack: well, it is certainly an interesting idea, but the worker slowdown is dramatic vondrack: ind workers are great for their speed vondrack: 1 gpt upkeep is not that much of a problem Donegeal: but there is no top limit for the amount of workers vondrack: that's correct Donegeal: unlimited workers vondrack: this might work later on vondrack: when workers are plentiful Donegeal: you want to keep people off you continent? Donegeal: set up a worker wall Donegeal: it cost you nothing Donegeal: say we don't do this Donegeal: you have upwards of 15-20 workers fixing your land and costing you 15-20 GPT. Donegeal: Now, imaging that this deal goes through... Donegeal: you have 50-60 workers fixing up your land...even at half speed, you get more done Donegeal: + we are industrious as well... Donegeal: ... and it free. vondrack: well, it is not a complete nonsense, I admit... even if it may not be feasible in the nearest future, it is a smart idea vondrack: will tell my teammates Donegeal: yep... that is what my teammates said as well Donegeal: not right now, but maybe in the short tearm future.. vondrack: don't you need to have a city on the same continent as the civ you are trading your workers with? Donegeal: nope... they go directly between the caps vondrack: I vaguely remember something like that being mentioned on the boards vondrack: ah, ok Donegeal: there is another thing that this will do... Donegeal: Imagine the relationship between GoW and Lego after doing this for 1000+ years. vondrack: yeah, we would probably be VERY good friends... ) Donegeal: on a personal note... what do you know of me? What is your impression of me (if you don't mind me asking)? Donegeal: do you think of me as a Warmonger? vondrack: I remember vondrack: reading a notice somewhere vondrack: that you started GoW vondrack: as the exact opposite vondrack: of what you usually play Donegeal: ok.... just checking... vondrack: was it not in the Introductions thread? Donegeal: I am a builder and I hoped that .... I don't remember if I put it there. I might have. vondrack: I distinctly remember reading this info somewhere vondrack: does not matter where it was vondrack: the personal impression is just fine vondrack: I have found out there are straight, open people in this game vondrack: and there are others... Donegeal: I just don't want you to think that I am a bloodthirsty person who thinks that war is the only way to win. vondrack: tbh, I do not care about who calls himself a builder and who calls himself a warmonger vondrack: I consider myself as a builder Donegeal: Hell... my favorite unit is the Knight because I love the ideas of Chivalry. vondrack: but I have absolutely no problem to declare war at any time, should I see it the right thing to do Donegeal: hmmm... like when a city gets plopped down on Un-Bob? Donegeal: hehehehe.... vondrack: well, yes, that would be the case ) vondrack: we call our land Legos vondrack: and the island mid-way Mystery Island Donegeal: don't worry about us... I could only see us putting a city there.... whoa there... Donegeal: Mid way would be a different matter... vondrack: the part of Legos we started on is called Legos Major, while a peninsula in the West Legos Minor Donegeal: sorry... I have not seen a map of you continent yet... vondrack: well, the Mystery Island is perhaps the only thing we would not consider "our sphere of influence" (this is just my personal opinion, not that of the whole team) vondrack: yeah... we do not wish to trade our map around Donegeal: Mid-way is closer to us than to you. vondrack: yes vondrack: by one tile, I think Donegeal: how is that "you sphere of influence"? Donegeal: er.. your... vondrack: it is the land we are not going to let anyone else settle on Donegeal: ummm... I think you will have a difficult time "Claiming" Midway. Donegeal: two reasons: vondrack: as I said, we would probably not oppose your settlement there vondrack: it is not important to us, I think Donegeal: 1) it is closer to us Donegeal: 2) you already have an entire continent to yourself. Don't be greedy. vondrack: we are not Donegeal: oh... ok... vondrack: I said we would probably not oppose Donegeal: good... see? Good relations already... vondrack: Donegeal: but that damn mess up with GS...... Donegeal: Vondrack, I swear to you upon my dedication to the Apolyton ISDG that it was a mistake. vondrack: just keep in mind that any settlement West of that island would trigger a war... not threatening, just trying to arrange for good relations vondrack: I have no reason to doubt what you say vondrack: mistakes happen vondrack: but now there is this situation Donegeal: yep... we have no intention of even going to your continent. vondrack: and we need some sort of a solution Donegeal: Panzer is our head of Forgien affairs. vondrack: btw, what was that note by Darekill about them and RPers allying against you? just j/k? Donegeal: GF went beyond his authority... Donegeal: I don't know about a note yet... where was it posted? I think ND was ticked at us for trying to steal some of their Lux Booty. vondrack: it was somewhere in the public PtWDG forum vondrack: I think that Trip-Historian thread vondrack: not sure Donegeal: I would not be suprized... vondrack: I would vondrack: RPers would have to lose their mind Donegeal: why? vondrack: they'd have nothing to gain vondrack: just a more powerful rival Donegeal: RPers are the most devious team vondrack: if ND conquers yourself vondrack: they would be the next on the menu vondrack: ah, devious... not sure... Donegeal: ND would struggle mightily against us.... vondrack: I would use a different word, but I will better not to... Donegeal: Actually, I don't think a RP/ND alliance against us would win... Donegeal: we have set up to well. vondrack: yeah, GF told me it would probably ended up in a stalemate Donegeal: we have choosen our land carefully.... vondrack: ummm... then how come than our military is "strong" compared to yours? vondrack: that our... Donegeal: duh... Numidean Mercs... vondrack: ah, that might be it, correct Donegeal: plus you have more workers than us... vondrack: I forgot the strengths depend on ADM ratings vondrack: workers are not counted vondrack: non-combat units Donegeal: really? I thought they were.... is that a change in a patch? vondrack: I believe so Donegeal: hmm... I must've missed that. vondrack: A/D=0/0 -:[/b] excluded from military strengths vondrack: or, more precisely, even if included, having no effect because of zero A/D values Donegeal: no... the reason why it would end in a stalemate is our production base is enormous...we can double our military in one turn if we need to. vondrack: I see Donegeal: anyway... I need to get going (and maybe try to fix the GS mess) vondrack: ok, take care vondrack: ttyl Donegeal: please feel free to share this info with your team. vondrack: ok, I will vondrack: same applies to you Donegeal: Do not share any info gained here to other teams. Donegeal: ... and I will do the same. vondrack: of course Donegeal: I consider this private matters not to be shared. vondrack: ok Donegeal: no offense... I just want to be sure that it is well read... Donegeal: Later Mr. President! vondrack: cya vondrack:

	12-03-2003 21:01									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Excellent! Perhaps we should suggest a small city on Mystery island that we may use as a naval base?

	14-03-2003 02:08									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

First, here is my today's correspondence with GhengisFarb:

quote: Oh well, you interested in making an offer for Polytheism? We just found it lying around in the bushes.

quote: Congratulations! We have been researching this way for quite some time... Can you give me an idea, what would you ask for? Speaking to other teams about future deals, we are more and more realizing we have very vague idea about what the tech prices in this world are... I would not like to make an offer you would find outrageous... try coming up with a number (money is currently the only thing we can offer) - I will post it in our forum and see what we can do from there on... we know (at least I believe we do) RPers are few turns from discovering it, so we will probably buy it from whoever offers the better price (the only importance of Polytheism for us being the fact it's needed to get out of the ancient times). Both RPers and GoW currently are or are likely to be good trading partners, so we do not mind trading for it with either team. Also, I have asked donegeal about whether you'd be insterested in getting Currency, which we've just started to research... I do not really have a good idea about how much "prearranged/guaranteed deals" are used, so if you tell me "it's too early", it will be ok, too.

quote: Don't tell any of the other teams we got Polytheism, I am going to smooth things over with GS before we let them know. Seriously, you should continue to research Republic, ND has already committed 8 to 10 turns of research to Currency so they would probably finish before you. I am going to talk to Togas about Polytheism and try to come up with a fair price to ask everyone for it and give it to Roleplay at a discount since they were already researching it. Feel free to offer price suggestions. Techs have been selling for anything from 10 to 100 gold depending on how greedy the team was that was selling it.

quote: Well, what about 60 gold then? I will have to consult with my team, so take this with a grain of salt, please, but this would sound like a fair price to me... you got it from a hut, but the beaker cost would be 12*24=288... suppose you give it to RPers almost for free - that gives four teams to sell it to for the full price... 244/4=72. Say, a small discount for a tech "Made in Hut" (plus you will get something from RPers, too)... would that be acceptable?

quote: That sounds, good. Togas agree that it sounded like a fair price. So I will offer it this turn (you'll offer 60 gold for it and accept). I would also like to add the stipulation that Lego not offer or mention the fact that anyone has Polytheism or trade it to either Vox or GS. This will give our teams a chance to get a headstart on the techs we are researching and help insure that no one beats to their discovery.

Now, I really believe we should take the deal. 60 gold is less than 2 turns of our research... and our problem now is that everybody else has got a head start on us and we cannot beat them to the techs they are researching, even if we go at full speed. Thus, anything that is available for money is a fine deal. So, the deal is:

Buy Polytheism from GoW for 60 gold. No reselling possible (at least that is what I understand).

Comment on the proposal ASAP, please, we are likely to get the save soon and I need to know if it is okay to accept.

	14-03-2003 02:14									#27
	Support Apolyton

Looks ok to me.

	14-03-2003 02:34									#28
	Tired of ads?

sounds good to me. Can't beat a good bargain!

	14-03-2003 02:37									#29
	Tired of ads?

Fine with me

	14-03-2003 19:05									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Looking good.