08-07-2003 04:21									#91
	Inflate your Upload Space

Regarding the GoW mapping of our continent. We should strongly consider asking GoW whether they have traded their world map to RP (especially after they started scouting our coast) - and perhaps alert them about the RP galley.

If RP does have our map, that galley is very suspicious... especially as it is ideally located to head towards us.

If RP doesn't have our map or an incomplete map, we should strongly remind RP about making no landings by military units or settlers and workers on our continent (especially as we haven't attempted to land on Bob at all during the game - and of course RP wants to keep us happy ... )

	14-07-2003 06:05									#92
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Have we done anything yet about inquiring from GoW whether they have recently traded their world map to RP?

My suspicions are even more aroused than that galley than by their request to send ships to scout our coastline...

	14-07-2003 18:29									#93
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Ok, I am back at work now, so I have some internet access until I get my home connection tomorrow I will catch up with GoW and see if I can get any info about map trades. I know RP has a portion of the map, but I'll see if I can ascertain how much.

	16-07-2003 12:19									#94
	Inflate your Upload Space

A brief note from Master Zen:

quote: Hello vondrack, I would just like to reasurre you and your team that the war we are undertaking against Roleplay in no way will interfere with any deals we have made, or were planning on making, with your team. We continue to hold our relationship with Lego as most valuable and hope it gets stronger as time passes. Anyway, feel free to contact us for anything, we would like to have a small chat with you or someone else on your team so as to keep you in the loop of what's happening. You must understand that for security reasons we were unable to disclose our actions until now. May the Warmonger Spirit guide us to victory, and may our two teams continue with the great frienship we have forged. Best Regards -Master Zen Consul of Foreign Affairs

This is a very good sign, I believe - they would not bother to 'reassure' us if we were not truly important for them. I am going to respond with kind words and bring the Astro/Inv deal a bit... at least trying to find out what their ETA on Invention currently is.

	16-07-2003 12:33									#95
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

My response:

quote: Hello Master Zen, Thank you for your kind note - we have been expecting an attack at the empire of Spain for several turns, so the news today have not surprised us. The only thing we were not reasonably sure about was whether GoW would join ND or stay out of the conflict... which is no longer a mystery. I think I am speaking for the whole of my team when I say that your involvement in this war will certainly NOT affect our relations and future trades. Actually - allow me to use this opportunity to bring back a trade proposal briefly discussed some time ago... We assume you are or will soon start researching Invention (because of the Leo's Workshop you once indicated you would like to build in Imperial City). If that is correct, we would be interested in trading for it. We are currently researching Astronomy, so that would be our part of the deal. As the research costs differ notably, we would appreciate some modest extra to balance the trade at least a little bit - feel free to offer whatever you believe you could miss. Wish you good luck in your endeavours, vondrack, the FAM of legoland

	16-07-2003 13:30									#96
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And MZ's response:

quote: Hello once again, vondrack. Thank you for your prompt reply. We will try and keep Lego informed of the situation as it develops, if you have any questions regarding the war don't hesitate to ask any of us. We hope the war will be quick but we do not underestimate our enemy. Roleplay is a strong and determined team and will fight to the death. We had discussed the Astronomy-Invention deal with Zargon in the past I believe. We had "informally" agreed to it in principle, and I am sure that our stand has not changed. All we need to work out is the extra to balance the trade but in essense I believe our team will agree to such a trade. Perhaps some captured RP luxes could balance it out... Regards -MZ

I will respond very briefly telling them to get back to us once they have an idea about the balance (though I am going to note that if they take too long to finalize the deal, we reserve the right to look for another seller, too). And I will ask for the ETA.

	16-07-2003 13:43									#97
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Here:

quote: Hello, Master Zen! No problem, a luxury would be a good balance, I think (come to think of it, I believe you'll always have at least one luxury we will not have - wines, so that one would be safe to include). Be so kind and get back to us once you have an idea about the balance. Though... we'd appreciate if it's possible to finalize the deal in the foreseeable future - deals that are "informally agreed to" may sometime take rather unfortunate turns, exactly because they're not finalized and the parties involved have slightly different understandings what they "informally agreed to" (just remeber what happened to our Theo+Edu for Feu+Chiv deal... that was one such "informally agreed to" deal - and still...). Anyway - can you give us at least an approximation of the Invention ETA? We should be done with Astronomy within 15 turns. Best regards, vondrack

	18-07-2003 17:24									#98
	Put an end to popups!

Quick note from Hot Enamel:

quote: Hey, Just a quick question while I am on-line. How far away are you from finishing the Sistine Chapel ? We want to switch Imperial City over to it as a prebuild, but dont want to find ourselves screwed, if you all of a sudden finish it. It goes without saying, that I or any member of the GoW will not reveal such information to any other team. Regs Hot_Enamel

I responded promptly, saying we had no problem with them using the Sistine's as a prebuild. I promised to give them a 3-turn advance notice (as if there was a chance that we could finish the Sistine's before they finish Leo's... ).

	21-07-2003 11:01									#99
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

And the deal wheels are in motion...

quote: ZargonX> Master Zen, might I borrow you for a moment? ZargonX> I'd like to discuss our future tech deal MasterZen> ah yes MasterZen> Astro for Invention? ZargonX> yes MasterZen> we're up for it ZargonX> You might recall we said we'd need something to balance out the beaker difference... MasterZen> yes ZargonX> and we were thinking 40 gold would work for us ZargonX> how does that figure strike you? MasterZen> 40g sounds reasonable MasterZen> let me discuss it with my warmonger buddies ZargonX> Of course MasterZen> or we could send you the head of any roleplayer you want ZargonX> heh, I have been looking for a new paperweight... MasterZen> hehehe ZargonX> How goes things on the warfront? (I understand if you can't answer that MasterZen> btw. vondrack had discussed something with H_E about gifting us Music Theory for the prebuild MasterZen> well the war goes well, we'll be in attack position next turn. So far no combat ZargonX> Guess your Riders are feeling good to finally get out in the open field of war, eh? MasterZen> yes, mobility will be the key ZargonX> isn't it always, though ZargonX> Anyway, I'm off to sleep ZargonX> I'll PM you a draft of the agreement, and you can check with your team MasterZen> ok cool ZargonX> Always a pleasure!

So, the deal seems to be in good shape. And, if what MZ says is true, the war will begin for real this coming turn...

As for the Music Theory thing, uh, Vondrack? Did you forget to tell us something or is this just crazy miscommunication?

	21-07-2003 11:37									#100
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX As for the Music Theory thing, uh, Vondrack? Did you forget to tell us something or is this just crazy miscommunication?

You can safely ignore that. Hot Enamel approached me and asked for the permission to use the Sistine's Chapel as an interim prebuild for their Leo's build in Imperial City. I told him it was okay and that we'd give a 3 turn warning. But he asked for an assurance that we would not finish Sistine's in Legopolis within ~20 turns (it was understandable - a 3-turn warning would help them little, which I did not realize). I did not want to give such an assurance, as he could have figured out we were not going for the Sistine's, but for something else - and I would rather surprise everybody than have this bit of info as a public knowledge...

So: I gave him my word that if they have a problem of lacking wonders to be used as an interim prebuild for the Leo's Workshop, we'd give them Music Theory for free. As this will never happen (nobody, the least us, is going to finish the Sistine's before GoW finishes the Leo's), it is as if I promised nothing.

Sorry for forgetting to post this.

	22-07-2003 05:25									#101
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

OK, I want to post this up before going to bed:

quote: Session Start: Mon Jul 21 23:53:40 2003 Session Ident: Donegeal vondrack: hello! Donegeal: Hello sir vondrack: what's up? Donegeal: I see you got my message vondrack: yup, I did - I have already responded (that I would hang out in here) Donegeal: Some very interesting time us GoW live in... vondrack: all of us... vondrack: will anyone else be joining us? Donegeal: yes... it is all of us... that is why I wanted to talk to you. vondrack: ok, go ahead Donegeal: MZ is online but I don't see him anywhere Donegeal: OK.... I again do not speak for all of GoW, but I just wanted to talk to you about something. vondrack: ok, understood Donegeal: The Great Bobian War is young... hell, it hasn't even started yet really... but RP has made a brilliant stratigical move. vondrack: oh? what kind of a brilliant move? Donegeal: Yeas... no units have attacked each other yet so no casulties or nothing... just a lot of positioning. Donegeal: RP realized that they were screwed.... Donegeal: Not actually defeated yet, but screwed. vondrack: hmmm... everybody else has been aware of that for some time, I think... vondrack: they overstretched out of pure greed Donegeal: Now, I'm sure that they talked to you, and you do not want to reveal any info to me, and you do a good job at that, but... Donegeal: They talked to you A LOT.... Donegeal: They talked to everybody alot... vondrack: that's not exactly true if we are talking about last days Donegeal: (Lawyers... what are you going to do? vondrack: they did try to talk to us, but not very vigorously vondrack: asked for help Donegeal: they also talked to GS... vondrack: proposed some rather unique ideas Donegeal: GS bit. vondrack: ok, go ahead Donegeal: yeah... dire situations produce dire ideas... Donegeal: they gifted GS two cities on Bob. vondrack: heh vondrack: so GS took it vondrack: we refused Donegeal: yeah.... Donegeal: I figured they went to you first... vondrack: but then, GS is (probably?) not bound by any treaty vondrack: yes, they offered two cities of theirs Donegeal: no... they are not. vondrack: we told them plainly we would be breaking promises vondrack: and that we would not go for that vondrack: they have been apparently more successful with GS Donegeal: However... the reason I wanted to tell you is because of the implications for Lego... Donegeal: have you looked at the historygraph lately? vondrack: last time last turn, I believe changed rooms here... Donegeal: here is what I've told him... MasterZen: in a nutshell we're in deep **** Donegeal: GS has two cities on Bob Donegeal: Lego turned down the offer. Donegeal: thats as far as we got vondrack: yep MasterZen: ah so they offered them to you too? vondrack: yes, they did MasterZen: hmm... we would have rather you'd accept them instead of GS MasterZen: could have probably worked something out.. vondrack: we were not free to - a treaty obliges us to stay out of Bob MasterZen: we don't feel like making GS stronger than they already are... Donegeal: GS is dangerous....strat guys... all of them... Donegeal: back to where I was... vondrack: GS is dangerous because of their military, not because of that they are strat guys... MasterZen: it's not like they're invincible, it's just like they're like the Real Madrid of PTWDG team. To beat Real you have to play flawlessly. vondrack: true MasterZen: but they are not unbeatable, that's for sure Donegeal: what would lego think of GS getting a foothold on Bob? MasterZen: look at this scenario: vondrack: hmph... do you think we are happy about that? vondrack: (actually, I am speaking for myself only ATM) MasterZen: GS has assured us that if we don't attack them, they won't attack us MasterZen: so, let's say GoW pursues RP to the end MasterZen: RP falls back and keeps gifting cities MasterZen: in the end, RP territory (half of bob) falls in GS hands MasterZen: not a nice scenario for anyone Donegeal: cept GS... vondrack: agreed MasterZen: of course Donegeal: I don't want GS to win. MasterZen: me neither vondrack: MasterZen: honestly, and this is between us, I would be quite willing to sacrifice GoW for Lego to win instead of GS Donegeal: um... yep. MasterZen: that's just me though of course vondrack: dunno what to say now... you sort of stunned me Donegeal: ... Vond... I REALLY don't want them to win... MasterZen: but that I mean right now we're treading on thin ice vondrack: nobody wants them to win Donegeal: all those strat guys would get even bigger heads! MasterZen: we'll still fight RP but we have to careful not to step on the minefields GS is planting MasterZen: we also will not tolerate if they attack ND MasterZen: I have made that perfectly clear to nye vondrack: did you make it clear that this "city gifts" are actually a trick you do not like? MasterZen: yep MasterZen: btw, to don: I had a small quick chat with nye a few minutes ago Donegeal: I was wondering where you were... MasterZen: not much, just expressing my displeasure MasterZen: and assuring that we wouldn't attack each other Donegeal: can I go do the same!!!!???? MasterZen: well, he're the deal vond MasterZen: like I said, we're trying not to step on the landmines MasterZen: but if Lego would perhaps be willing to intervene, we will MasterZen: and like I said, unlike RP, we will fight to the death so that GS does not control Bob. ND will also. vondrack: MZ, honestly - we are in no shape to intervene anywhere. Our military is mostly defensive (mercs). MasterZen: and if this ends up turning into a Lego vs GS affair over who wins this game, we support Lego. vondrack: and we have almost no navy (2 galleys) vondrack: quite frankly, we need time vondrack: let me speak for a minute here, ok? MasterZen: yes, go ahead vondrack: first: I (we) are just as keen on beating GS as you are vondrack: second: GS played a very strong opening game vondrack: their land is used almost to the full potential vondrack: I estimate that their economy is about 30% stronger than ours vondrack: and ours is at least that much stronger compared to anyone's else (you, RP, ND) vondrack: so there is a huge gap ATM vondrack: fortunately, GS has a problem vondrack: their land is too small vondrack: while we are going to grow steadily, they cannot vondrack: or not equally vondrack: the more time we have, the better MasterZen: true. Although good starts tend to have a multiplier effect vondrack: multiplier effect? vondrack: like for GS? or for us? MasterZen: yes, a good start tends to give better results in the long run than a bad start made good later MasterZen: for GS Donegeal: I see where you are going Vond... Donegeal: with GS on Bob, that changes the land and time deal... vondrack: right vondrack: btw - we will be happy to trade dyes for wines in less than 10 turns MasterZen: cool Donegeal: everyone wants GoW liquer! vondrack: so, to make the long story short... at this moment and for the foreseeable future vondrack: we need to be left alone to our building vondrack: that is the way to get an edge over GS Donegeal: I thought so... vondrack: right now, we would not be able to make any real difference vondrack: we can support you with techs, maybe gold vondrack: but military would be just waste of resources vondrack: mercs are less stellar than 1500 years ago * GhengisFarb has joined #GoW_CoFA vondrack: these days MasterZen: still better than pikes Donegeal: But if you boasted, it would make GS pull back. vondrack: seeing GF coming in... do I have to worry about this chat EVER being referenced in the public forum? MasterZen: yes, perhaps a little diplomatic arm-twisting... MasterZen: hehe, no Donegeal: do you hold an office in Lego any more? vondrack: FAM vondrack: but right now, I am not acting as the Lego FAM vondrack: if I was to, I would have to tell you I have to take it to my team first vondrack: I am talking on private level now only Donegeal: Lego no longer has the luxury of sitting back and slowly overtake GS. vondrack: so... back to the topic vondrack: do you and ND have NAPs with GS? MasterZen: we have assurances of no war between us vondrack: and ND? MasterZen: I don't think so Donegeal: We cannot tolerate GS cities on Bob. MasterZen: then again, assurances can be broken, you know... vondrack: GS will not break them - especially if they are written MasterZen: damn, you know, you should have come up to us MasterZen: when RP offered the cities MasterZen: we would have much rather you guys took em... * vondrack sighs MasterZen: nothing is written with GS, btw, that's what worries us Donegeal: we'da let you keep'em... MasterZen: yep MasterZen: most likely worked something out Donegeal: we still can... MasterZen: rule #1 when someone offers you cites, TAKE 'EM DAMMIT!!... hahaha vondrack: I would not really consider kosher to accept cities from RP just to "work something out with you" - that's too much of an "evil plan" for me Donegeal: hehehehe * UnOrthOdOx has joined #GoW_cofa MasterZen: hahaha Donegeal: we still can work something out... MasterZen: evil plans are fun vondrack: give me a second, I will load the last savegame up vondrack: alright - so what did RPers gift to GS? MasterZen: Santiago and Bilbao MasterZen: Bilbao was our target for this turn. We would have taken it vondrack: yeah... that's probably why they gifted it MasterZen: yep vondrack: hm, that was a smart move... they narrowed the front big time MasterZen: huge time... vondrack: have you or ND triggered your GA? Donegeal: not yet. vondrack: have you considered pulling back? Donegeal: If we pull back GS gets a bigger hold on Bob... MasterZen: hmm... MasterZen: maybe not Donegeal: GS must stay off bob. If they get on, they win the game. vondrack: agreed MasterZen: RP will surely just gift them cities once we get close to them vondrack: that's why I am asking about pulling back vondrack: just thinking aloud.... Donegeal: and leave GS cities on Bob? No vondrack: well, the way I see it - once you attack the new GS cities, they will use that as a perfect excuse to invade MasterZen: I'm honestly trying to figure out if pulling back would be best... but I have my doubts Donegeal: we all know the GS has the biggest army... vondrack: by a considerable margin, yes Donegeal: If GS gets on Bob, they can win by domination. Donegeal: they are coming anyway vondrack: true, just a matter of time Donegeal: they won't come so hard if they think you are on our side. vondrack: btw - do you have both strategic resources secured? vondrack: we could provide them, if not vondrack: in those ~10 turns we need to finish Astro Donegeal: if they don't come so hard... ND-GoW can stop them. Donegeal: RP will be quick work. MasterZen: RP is no match for us MasterZen: but if GS moves its army in... then things even up MasterZen: plus, we have no way of invading them vondrack: hm, I think that's what GS wants - to even things up vondrack: they expressed concerns about 2-civ Bob in the past (numerous times) Donegeal: If GS comes with no fear of Lego comming from the west... then we can't stop them. Donegeal: If we don't get you on our side, it could well be a one civ Bob!!!! * Donegeal wonders where the "All Seeing Eye" is... vondrack: right, I see where all this is going... and I understand - we (Lego) need to make it clear that any extensive GS involvement in your war will push us to your camp vondrack: this is something I have to consult with my team before actually doing so Donegeal: yes... and GS will talk big and tough. Ignore it. GS CANNOT beat a Lego-GoW-ND team. Donegeal: most definitely.... vondrack: I will post about it in our forum and see what happens - I assume that others will agree, too Donegeal: FYI... ND already agrees. vondrack: we are reasonably confident of beating GS in a peaceful way, if we stay on Legos Major and they stay on Stormia vondrack: if they expand, things would change vondrack: agrees to what? Donegeal: That Lego-ND-GoW could not be stopped. Donegeal: when I was explaining what a World War like this could turn into looked like... vondrack: I meant others = other Legos... as in that we have to exert diplomatic pressure on GS Donegeal: its pretty obvious that GS could not win. vondrack: yeah, so no surprise they are trying to escape their "golden cage" Donegeal: Diplomatic pressure won't be enough. MasterZen: well we have to take it little by little vondrack: as I said - at this moment, there is little we can do, but the diplomatic pressure Donegeal: by all means... Donegeal: they don't know that! MasterZen: I for one would welcome strong words by Lego against the GS Donegeal: You guys beat the experts in building a Wonder! They alread look on you cautiously! vondrack: well... that (Pyramids) is actually distorting the picture ATM vondrack: they are way ahead of us as far as economy & military is concerned MasterZen: the ND-GoW-Lego alliance. Don't **** wit us. MasterZen: you are the economy behind it, we provide the raw brute power. Donegeal: Its not the effect that matters... Its just that you beat them!

	22-07-2003 05:30									#102
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Part II:

quote: vondrack: well - for this moment: vondrack: I will talk to my teammates vondrack: we will (hopefully) agree to make it clear to GS vondrack: that if they mess with the Bobian War 2 any more vondrack: we will have no choice but to side with you and ND Donegeal: That is all I can ask. ND will hold the save until we get back to them. MasterZen: that's good enough for us at this moment. vondrack: to keep the balance of power MasterZen: if your team could agree to that, we'd be eternally please and would forever consider Lego an ally. Donegeal: they won't give up the Bobian cities. vondrack: I do not think it would be very wise to attack their (GS) cities at this moment vondrack: can you go around them? Donegeal: It would be more unwise later. MasterZen: I think attacking GS must be seriously debated first. vondrack: well, guys, it is simple - you attack, you fight GS. NOW. vondrack: their 'code of honour' would be unlikely to put up with you taking their cities MasterZen: of course not vondrack: UNARMED cities... Donegeal: If we don't attack the GS cities THIS TURN, then they can rush buy units. Donegeal: They WILL NOT leave unless we make them this turn. Our winpow of oppertunity is small. Donegeal: er... window... vondrack: if you believe so... that is up to you to decide - but I have to make clear we are NOT in a position to help you militarily within the next at least 20-30 turns Donegeal: fine... but if GS thinks you are... MasterZen: winpow... that's more Warmongerian for ya * Panzer32 has joined #gow_cofa Donegeal: say GS has 10 units it can land on BoB. If they think that Lego could get them at their back, they would only land 5 so they can defend themselves froma percieved threat. Panzer32: pwd anyone? vondrack: any more members in your team? where is Hot Enamel? Donegeal: sleeping... * MasterZen sets mode: +k IhateGS Donegeal: hehehe Panzer32: so hows the chat going? Have we gotten anywhere? Donegeal: yes... and no... Donegeal: Lego sees the dire position of everyteam on the planet... but can't attack anything. vondrack: have you asked GS to (not) do anything? vondrack: tried to strike any deals? vondrack: like - leave the cities undefended and we will not attack? Donegeal: Oh, yes... they would prefer to do nothing. * GhengisFarb is now known as GhengisFarb[observing] Donegeal: If we do nothing, then they get to keep their foothold on Bob. the ONLY team that would benifit from that is GS. vondrack: right - the other option is: attack, take the cities -> fight GS. NOW. (at least that seems obvious to me) vondrack: just a second Donegeal: yep... I think thats the only option. vondrack: when RPers offered us the cities, they made it clear that they would want them back after the war vondrack: so, what if this war ended... hmm... Donegeal: This war will end without RP. MasterZen: it would just make RP stronger in the long run. That is even more unacceptable. vondrack: and leaving RP be and attacking GS instead? Donegeal: No... keeping GS off bob and killing RP. vondrack: sorry if I seem talking nonsense - trying to brainstorm Donegeal: We would need you to "distract" GS to make it eaiser. vondrack: how do you want to keep GS off Bob? vondrack: we do not even have a way to get over the ocean to Stormia vondrack: not until Navigation Donegeal: if GS has to worry about you, they cannot concentrate on Bob. Donegeal: With you on our side, GS hase to fight a two front war. vondrack: not true vondrack: the only way for us to them is through Bob vondrack: or around Bob Donegeal: I don't have the save up... vondrack: I am just looking at the map... Donegeal: how many tiles is the gap? * UnOrthOdOx has quit IRC (Quit: ) vondrack: 6 ocean tiles at the narrowest point Donegeal: ouch.. vondrack: that's what I am telling you all the time... Donegeal: and in ten turns you can traverse sea tiles, right? vondrack: yes, sea tiles Panzer32: use the poles!! oh thats civ2 MasterZen: hahaha vondrack: GS is smart... they did what they did 'cause they figured out they do not have to care about us... vondrack: and they were right... Donegeal: The polish aren't in this game. vondrack: LoL vondrack: another crazy idea... assume you take their cities and they invade... where (probably)? vondrack: Port Isolation - Shantung area? Donegeal: Port Isolation most likely. Donegeal: or even Dreadnautica... MasterZen: they have the naval power to attack at will where they please Panzer32: just looked at the map, and they could JUST squeak by Port Isolation to the north without being detected vondrack: I am getting short of ideas... it's 1:30am here... vondrack: all I am sure about is that we do not wish GS to gain any solid beachhead on Bob vondrack: but I am, at this moment, unsure how to prevent that Donegeal: Like MZ and I said before, we would rather Lego win then GS. I will try to convince GoW to help lego defeat GS... vondrack: ummm... isn't almost the whole GoW team here? Donegeal: yep... Panzer32: Panzer32: Go Legoland! MasterZen: besides H_E there's no other active member missing vondrack: vondrack: guys - either way I am looking at it, I cannot see a "fine" solution right now. But it may be because it's late. vondrack: I will post in our forum vondrack: and see what others have to say vondrack: could we continue this tomorrow? Donegeal: As a member of GoW, I pledge my support to Lego in the overall game. vondrack: for the moment: vondrack: 1) I was speaking privately, though in good faith vondrack: 2) we are certainly worried about GS gaining a foothold on Bob vondrack: 3) we are not in a position to threaten them militarily vondrack: 4) we ARE in a position to exert diplomatic and economic pressure on them vondrack: which is what we will most likely do within 48 hours vondrack: 5) from our PoV, what we need most is time vondrack: as time passes, we will grow stronger and stronger, catching up on GS vondrack: (at least that's what we believe) Donegeal: Time will no longer help you. GS will grow on Bob. They now have more room than everybody. vondrack: "Attacking" them now will not help us either. vondrack: our galley is ~15 turns from the Bilbao area vondrack: the other one ~20 or more vondrack: no more galleys vondrack: so - how could time not help us? Donegeal: in 15 to 20 turns, GS could have 1/3 of bob. vondrack: ummmm... are you that weak? Donegeal: no... GS is that strong vondrack: because... if you focus on GS, I would expect RPers to help them (GS) little to not at all Donegeal: you are right, but RPers will came after us. Donegeal: see what you can do on your forum.. I don't think much else can be done right now. MasterZen: yes, if you can at least exert diplomatic pressure, that would be great vondrack: yeah, agreed MasterZen: we can surely think of something vile and dastardly to do meanwhile MasterZen: but I would suggest you guys start building up... vondrack: ummm... and what do you think we have been doing since turn 1? Panzer32: Donegeal: remember that library joke Uber told... Panzer32: clearing jungle? vondrack: yep, too vondrack: @D: yeah... my favourite ) * GhengisFarb[observing] has quit IRC (Ping timeout ) vondrack: ok, guys... do you mind if I post most of this chat in our forum? or shall I make a summary only? Panzer32: go ahead MasterZen: post it all... vondrack: ok, will do Donegeal: Wifey is home... time to go. vondrack: for this moment - thanks for the chat and see you soon. * Donegeal has quit IRC (Quit: ) vondrack: good night, everybody! Session Close: Tue Jul 22 01:57:04 2003

I am too tired to comment - will do so tomorrow.

	22-07-2003 07:50									#103
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Brief message: Things are reaching a critical point in the game; I'd like us to try and have a team chat so we can actually talk these things out. Can everyone post when is good for them within the next 24-48 hours?

	22-07-2003 07:59									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Anytime after 7 or 7:30 pm Eastern (think that is around 000 GMT ? - 5 hours difference?)

	22-07-2003 10:03									#105
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Definitely a critical point. As Vondrack pointed out, in the short term we cannot get involved militarily (is this a word??). But do we change our long term plans. This is a situation where the goverment would get a think tank involved.

Our whole military strategy is based on an effective defense and counter attack on Legoland soil. Do we change this to something else? Does GS power move onto Bob warrant a change in long term strategy.

A chat is definitely in order. Sharpe's time is best for me also. Please let me know the chat location (if it take place). I've had trouble in the past getting in (to the point where I just gave up). I very slow of thought, so I need detail instructions (1. sit down, 2. Turn on Computer......)

Leo

	22-07-2003 12:15									#106
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I should be available for the most of today... though I may be a bit sleepy, if it is too late - last night, the chat ended up around 2am and I had less than my regular dose of sleep.

I would set the time for now only - we will see if Poly is stable enough for the chat. If not, we'd go somewhere else.

Don't worry, Leo - we will navigate you through.

	22-07-2003 14:45									#107
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yeah I think a chat is best. I am intrigued however about GOW's fear in all of this. i wonder how ND are seeing this....

	25-07-2003 02:17									#108
	Increase the size of your Attachments

In 4 turns we must switch to a wonder in Legopolis.
We are 24 turns away from the Sistine, so basically we could tell GoW that they can use Sistine for at least ?? (well, we don't want to tell them exactly, so let's say, 15 or 20?) turns starting from now. That should be enough for them. I don't think that Invetion will take more than that.
Besides we can't give them Music Theory yet, since we don't have it Not only that but we won't have in the next ~ 15 turns (or more if we want to save some money).
But we know they can use the Sistine prebuild as long as they want it

	25-07-2003 02:51									#109
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius In 4 turns we must switch to a wonder in Legopolis. We are 24 turns away from the Sistine, so basically we could tell GoW that they can use Sistine for at least ?? (well, we don't want to tell them exactly, so let's say, 15 or 20?) turns starting from now. That should be enough for them. I don't think that Invetion will take more than that. Besides we can't give them Music Theory yet, since we don't have it Not only that but we won't have in the next ~ 15 turns (or more if we want to save some money). But we know they can use the Sistine prebuild as long as they want it

That was exactly my thinking. I did not want to tell them that Sistine's is a very safe prebuild for the foreseeable future. OTOH, I did want to give them a guarantee good enough to make them happy using it as a prebuild even if we do not tell them plainly we are not building the Chapel yet.

I know we will never need to give them the Music Theory.

	29-07-2003 06:14									#110
	Suffering from ads?

The wheels are in motion...

quote: MasterZen> you guys want to start? or shall I? ZargonX> Why don't you start MasterZen> ok, it was just a small petition, we wanted to know if you could send us a pic of Inchon in RP hands ZargonX> I think we can get that ZargonX> I'll consult with the others, but I don't think anyone would have a problem with it... Sharpe> nope np MasterZen> cool, we're about to unleash diplomatic hell on GS, and we need that as "evidence" ZargonX> Ah, gotcha ZargonX> That all on your end? MasterZen> pretty much ZargonX> Ok, then I'll start my pitch ZargonX> We have been having much discussion in Lego recently about the GS situation... ZargonX> and, we've come to a decision, or sorts... ZargonX> *of sorts Panzer32> ZargonX> recent events have lent credence to the fact that GS is planning to invade Bob.. MasterZen> :drumroll: ZargonX> shifting forces, RP shennangans, etc. ZargonX> and, as we've said before, we will not stand for a large GS presence on Bob ZargonX> so... :drumroll grows louder: MasterZen> hehehe Panzer32> :reallyexpect: ZargonX> we are planning to announce, quite publicly, that if GS takes any more than X amount of cities (x is as of yet to be determined)... ZargonX> we will be forced to intervene directly MasterZen> x=3 ZargonX> Let me clarify, though... ZargonX> we cannot assist you with your or ND's conflict with RP... Panzer32> yes ZargonX> however, if GS comes in force, we will be there to aid you, militarily MasterZen> well, the truth is that this is much more than we expected. We are glad to have you on our side like this * Sharpe has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) MasterZen> doh ZargonX> he'll be back Panzer32> just a clarification: is this takes and holds, or just has held at one time (assuming the former) ZargonX> Well, it's more if they establish a "presence" Panzer32> right ZargonX> i.e., massive forces, or a set number of cities MasterZen> we have unconfirmed info that GS has already landed forces * Sharpe has joined #isdgsub ZargonX> as do we MasterZen> an RP "leak" Sharpe> sorry my internet connection shorted out there MasterZen> any idea where? MasterZen> np ZargonX> we do not have any idea of the location ZargonX> just the rumor Panzer32> we do know that GS has one knight that we've seen (toledo) MasterZen> same as us... ZargonX> We believe the Inchon switch was to shift forces to Eye... ZargonX> but, that's just supposition.. ZargonX> it seems likely, though Panzer32> does anyone have the game open? ZargonX> not at the moment Panzer32> basically if Inchon had a harbour they it could have been to get Iron ZargonX> ah, also a possibility ZargonX> hadn't thought of that Sharpe> fairly certain no harbor in Inchon MasterZen> me too, I doubt it ZargonX> now, we figure the best next step is to hold a 3-team conference, with us, ND, and you Sharpe> there is one in Wittich City however ZargonX> we will need a little time to manuever our forces into position, but GS will probably need the same as well Panzer32> youre right, no harbour in Inchon MasterZen> Zargon: thursday at 2 pm EST is our weekly chat with ND, perhaps you could join us this week... ZargonX> actually, I think I can do that... Panzer32> but I realize that RP can be getting iron anyways ZargonX> or, if not me, I'm sure one of us Legoers can MasterZen> sometimes ND has pressing issues on days other than thursday, but we usually have those chats at 2 EST Sharpe> Vondrack could be available then too ZargonX> Kloreep as well, probably Sharpe> anychance of a Megachat on the weekend as well? MasterZen> I'm always here ZargonX> How is the RP situation looking? ZargonX> I mean, are your forces making any headway? MasterZen> well to put it bluntly, no RP forces in sight... ZargonX> I heard most of them had retreated... ZargonX> I guess they are planning to hold out in their core... MasterZen> but Bilbao will be toast this turn, and Toledo the next ZargonX> good, good... the less they can assist GS, the better MasterZen> and hopefully New Madrid the turn after that if GS has yet to land... MasterZen> we also suspect that RP is planning a huge redoubt in Pamplona which is where all the defending units are heading Sharpe> they probably also want to protect their new southern cities MasterZen> which means our best strategy is simply to go and threaten all their cities until they fall or are gifted to GS MasterZen> our attacking GS will probably make them stop gifting, it's pretty obvious we don't care whether they are RP or GS cities, they will be taken ZargonX> Yes, that will help... ZargonX> better the cities are destroyed than even give GS an extra one-turn commerce boost Sharpe> what we are concerned about is GS involvement on Bob, they are strong enough as is ZargonX> Now, once we have a better sense of what GS is planning to move into Bob, then we can plan some more solid strategies... ZargonX> but, I mostly wanted to take this opportunity to tell you that we will be there for you and ND, and to go boldly forth! ZargonX> the GS menace cannot be ignored! ZargonX> [/dramatic] MasterZen> good, we were frankly prepared to go down as long as GS didn't win... this will definitely give both our teams a huge psycho boost MasterZen> (us and ND) Sharpe> Vondrack let ND know the same thing earlier today ZargonX> we spoke with ND about this earlier, as well ZargonX> Sharpe> great minds think alike Zargon! ZargonX> MasterZen> and ND is even more suicidal than us... at least we tried to convince them to ignore GS, but they didn't give a damn! ZargonX> heh, those crazy Germans MasterZen> which is quite admirable Sharpe> that was our idea too, go after GS and ignore the GS cities until later ZargonX> well, the only way to stop GS is with force, at this point... Sharpe> one concern we have is that as soon as Navigation is complete , GS will have the ability to invade us ZargonX> so, hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast, hit 'em often MasterZen> I like the sound of that... Panzer32> do we know what theyre researching? MasterZen> supposedly banking I think... Panzer32> probably going for democracy. ZargonX> most likely Panzer32> well were researching invention and were not going to give it to them ZargonX> heh, excellent Sharpe> though if GS gets a hint of our involvement they may shift gears towards Navigation instead ZargonX> that's one thing they definately DON'T need ZargonX> anyway, gentlemen, I'm afraid I've got to run Sharpe> so it might be an idea to keep our involvement with you secret for now ZargonX> but, we will talk further of such things in the near future! Panzer32> ok, see you guys later! Sharpe> Bye! ZargonX> We'll look for you on Thursday, for sure! MasterZen> cya! MasterZen> cool * ZargonX is now known as ZargonX|away ZargonX|away> later! * MasterZen salutes the Republic of Legoland for their bravery Sharpe> ah you are making us blush Sharpe> do you guys know what ND is researching? we don't have a trade agreement with them yet Panzer32> I think they were doing engineering... think there done or almost done Panzer32> but don't know whats next Panzer32> we should coordinate to beat RP-GS Sharpe> true, are you guys slowing down your research with the war? MasterZen> nope Sharpe> ah good! Sharpe> agreed, the 3 of us might be able to beat GS and RP MasterZen> at least not now... if GS invades our homeland we may be forced to Sharpe> one advantage that we have is that a fair amount of GS and RP cities are still small MasterZen> well, their only remaining big ones are Barcelona Zaragoza and Pamplona... MasterZen> the others are taken or gifted Sharpe> and GS has a lot of small ones in or near the former Vox area MasterZen> soon they won't be able to support their army unless GS financially assists them Sharpe> unfortunately GS is probably going to supply RP with iron Sharpe> but they don't have an extra source of horses... Panzer32> we have plans to take out Barcelona ASAP (only harbour) Sharpe> re RP supporting their army, true, although they still have some good commerce squares Sharpe> ah good, though I suspect then GS might build a city with a harbor on Bob, but that will take time Panzer32> then we just take it MasterZen> hehehe Sharpe> hehe Sharpe> well we are building up our military and the number of cities now rapidly on Legos, so perhaps we will scare GS a bit with our sudden rise in the power graph MasterZen> cool MasterZen> we look forward to the day Lego overtakes GS in power Sharpe> as do we Sharpe> they are about 25 to 30% stronger than us economically right now , but that should be changing shortly Sharpe> ND in comparison is still a little weaker than us even in their Golden Age state Sharpe> well gtg, bye! * Sharpe has left #isdgsub MasterZen> RP seems strong but it's probably because of their cities * MasterZen has left #isdgsub * Panzer32 has left #isdgsub

My thoughts on the chat soon...

	29-07-2003 12:43									#111
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

There is only one thing I do not really like... providing the screenshot of Inchon in the hands of RP. Personally, I do not see a single reason to "unleash diplomatic hell" - whom we need to convince? Voxes are with us, no matter what. GoW & ND are our closest allies now. And GS & RP are our enemies now. So - what would such a "diplomatic hell" achieve?

I do not feel I wanna go through another story like the one with the last Voxian public announcement... these "diplomatic hells" are truly "hells"... for everybody.

Also - we should make clear what "little time" means in our terminology... not to have GoW expect our troops in 5 turns...

Otherwise, a good chat... it is surprising how much a simple assurance of support means for these warmongers...

	29-07-2003 18:49									#112
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

After sleeping on the Inchon pic, I agree with vondrack. I don't see what it would accomplish, except pinning us as one of two possible screenshot takers (Vox would have been the only other team to see it in RP hands, and GS may consider them under our jurisdiction anyway).

	29-07-2003 19:32									#113
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Well, as long as it doesn't interfere with them attacking GS, I don't care if we don't give them the screenshot. I told them I'd have to take it to the team, so I can just play the "sorry, love to give it to you, but some people on the team just don't like the idea." That way we still come off friendly, with just a few paranoid holdouts (Sorry, don't mean to label you paranoid holdouts :) Anyway, I'll talk to them again about it and make sure it wasn't somethign they vitally needed.

	29-07-2003 22:03									#114
	Increase the size of your Attachments

May I ask you to PM me when you are about to talk to them? I will hopefully get the PM within minutes and will try to be there, too.

Thanks.

	29-07-2003 22:18									#115
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Well, I usually catch MZ or Panzer late in the evening for me (during your sleep hours), but I will PM you nonetheless. I can't do any chatting from work, so that sort of cuts out my days now

	30-07-2003 08:46									#116
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Spoke with MZ about the picture:

-They basically want it for photo analysis.
-They want to see if GS will deny that they traded Inchon.
-They will not mention Lego
-The pic will not be posted unless we give them permission.

	30-07-2003 12:32									#117
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Spoke with MZ about the picture: -They basically want it for photo analysis. -They want to see if GS will deny that they traded Inchon. -They will not mention Lego -The pic will not be posted unless we give them permission.

1) Photo analysis? Huh?
2) If they deny that, then what? If they do not deny that, then what?
3) They do not need to - only two teams are capable of providing this information: us & Vox.
4) Oh, lovely...

I am feeling strongly against doing this:

1) They either trust us or not. If we say Inchon was in the hands of RP, that must be enough. They may check with Vox, if they want another confirmation.
2) The map itself does not carry any extra information beyond the simple "Inchon was for one turn in the hands of RP".
3) Them asking GS about this fact reveals that either us or Voxes provided them with this information. It warns GS of the fact that either us or Vox (but they will likely consider that all the same) are supporting ND+GoW, at least with intel. This blows our cover too early - we want GS to feel relatively safe with us... that is the only way to allow getting more info from them and to make them base their military plans on inaccurate assumptions.
4) The very fact of "trading" Inchon to RPers for one turn is nothing that could be held against GS - they are simply using the game mechanics in a smart way... not that I would consider that so great, but it is allowed (and our Voxian friends used the very same trick just few turns ago). It cannot be used to "harm" them diplomatically (besides - as I said in the previous post, I do not see any needs to harm them diplomatically).

OTOH:

5) The ONLY reason GoW may have to go (semi-)public with this I can think of is to make sure our relations with GS sour now and ND+GoW ensure we publicly end up in their alliance. While this is understandable from their PoV, it is not necessary and deprives us of the element of surprise. They will have to trust us.

	30-07-2003 14:26									#118
	Put an end to popups!

Ahh, finally a courageous act from GoW ! (see their ultimatum to GS in the public forum). If things will go well, the Inchon shot won't have any importance.

Btw, Radek, I think we won't be able to keep secret our plans regarding our counter-GS policy. Maybe our military plans yes, but our support for ND+GoW against GS no. We should make a decision as fast as possible, how many GS cities we will tolerate on Bob. We will get involved in the public debate, I'm sure, and we will need an official position on this.

Something like: no more than 2 GS cities on Bob or otherwise we declare tech+trade embargo against GS. No words about military plans yet nor later. Also we should ask ND+GoW to keep the military part secret.

	30-07-2003 15:11									#119
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Yeah, right, with The Glory of Manifesto, the picture thingy is no longer relevant, I guess. Note to self: make sure GoW/ND understand that if we tell them anything, it is meant to remain confidential and not a cannonball for their public announcements. At least in the future.

Here is what I believe we shall do:

1) PM or chat with GS - make it very clear that with accepting New Madrid, they and RP crossed the line between what we consider "balancing the power" on Bob and what we perceive as a full scale, aggressive invasion of Bob. Tell them we now believe RPers have decided to more or less resign from the game (New Madrid was one of the best RP production centers), giving whatever is left to them to GS. We do not see this as acceptable.

2) Depending on how GS responds, we shall either make our stance public or continue the negotiations privately, perhaps trying to arrange a "limited war", guaranteeing we would not attack their homeland in exchange for them not attacking us on Legos. If they accept, fine, if not, fine, too.

I am going to draft a message to GS. Will post it ASAP for comments.

	30-07-2003 15:15									#120
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Let's continue this in the Bob war thread.