13-05-2003 10:16									#61
	Increase Your PM Length

Ok, with things rolling again, I had a chat with MZ about the tech deal. He said it looked good, and he would take it to the team for approval. I'm PMing him the full text of the deal shortly.

	13-05-2003 10:20									#62
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The chat...

quote: ZargonX> Hey MZ, have a moment for some PTWDG business? MasterZen> sure go ahead ZargonX> Long ago, before the world crashed, Vondrack and I had worked up a deal with Panzer and GF for a tech swap ZargonX> since all this time has gone by, we never really confirmed it ZargonX> wanted to re-raise the issue and see if we could firm things up MasterZen> go ahead ZargonX> ok, the deal we had worked out was... ZargonX> Theology for Feudalism and Education for Chivarly... ZargonX> with the timing being.. ZargonX> Theo for Feu one turn before Edu for Chiv ZargonX> (due to the prerequsites) ZargonX> Panzer had told us it was "unofficially" accepted ZargonX> but I figured we should probably confirm things with the new FAM MasterZen> ok ZargonX> excellent! MasterZen> sounds allright MasterZen> sounds allright MasterZen> I should discuss it though with them a bit ZargonX> of course MasterZen> I see no problems though, sounds like a good deal ZargonX> yes, I think it would be of benefit to all involved MasterZen> btw, why Edu and not engineering? ZargonX> I'm not sure, but I vaguely remember Panzer telling us you were getting Eng from a different source MasterZen> ok, I don't know all the deals they made before I was FAM ZargonX> but of course. That chat was so long ago I barely remember the details... ZargonX> But, I'll PM you the official text of the deal for approval MasterZen> yes, that would be best ZargonX> will do!

	13-05-2003 14:03									#63
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Didn't you forget about the no-Sistine clause, Zargon? It was accepted by GF, IIRC.

	20-05-2003 20:36									#64
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Has any thing else happenned on this front, GoW PM you?

	26-05-2003 01:55									#65
	Put an end to popups!

Darn... it seems it's us delaying the deal. Master Zen has never received any formal draft from us...

Here is a draft I sent him about an hour ago:

quote: Sorry for the mixup on our side. Here is a draft of the trade agreement informally agreed upon with GF and Panzer32: quote: Legoland-GoW Theo+Edu/Feu+Chiv trade agreement 1) Legoland agrees to provide GoW with Theology and Education. GoW agrees to not resell/trade/gift these techs to any other party for 20 turns from receiving Education. 2) GoW agrees to provide Legoland with Feudalism and Chivalry. Legoland agrees to not resell/trade/gift these techs to any other party for 20 turns from receiving Chivalry. 3) Legoland agrees to not attempt to build Leonardo's Workshop as long as GoW remains in the game. 4) GoW agrees to not attempt to build Sistine's Chapel and Bach's Cathedral as long as Legoland remains in the game. 5) The trade shall happen right after the last of the four techs is discovered. First, Theology shall be traded for Feudalism, and one turn later, Chivalry shall be traded for Education. On behalf of Legoland: vondrack, The President As there is another team offering us Feudalism at a reasonable price, we would appreciate hearing from you back soon. Best regards, vondrack

I doubled the NDA lengths, since our techs will be much more valuable then theirs... Master Zen said, commenting on the draft, "... just one last thing, we sent you Feudalism (not accepted) this turn as we did not have the deal in our hands, we had been planning to sell the tech this turn to all teams for a "reasonable price" too; just disregard it, as it is most likely we will agree to the deal you just sent "

	28-05-2003 01:54									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Right, MasterZen just informed me (in a chat) that the deal was accepted. Written trade agreement should be with us shortly.

	30-05-2003 07:25									#67
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Guys, I have had two long chats with Panzer32 and Master Zen. Do not do anything regarding GoW until I post them, please. Will do so after I wake up (4:25am here).

	30-05-2003 12:52									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

OK, first the chatlogs:

quote: Session Start: Fri May 30 03:11:11 2003 Session Ident: Panzer_32 Session Ident: Panzer_32 (~Panzer32@d235-144-4.home1.cgocable.net) Panzer_32: hello Vondrack vondrack: hello Panzer_32: how did you get feudalism? vondrack: well, you know, things got a bit complicated... let me explain Panzer_32: go ahead vondrack: first: Master Zen told me that our deal was "accepted" vondrack: no "but's" vondrack: second: later on, Master Zen told ZargonX (our current Prez) that the deal was "accepted with one modification" vondrack: and that modification was supposed to be another no-wonder clause on our side vondrack: though it was just in a chat, not even the wonder was named vondrack: this was, I admit, rather... uh... "surprising", to be diplomatic Panzer_32: just a minute... let me find the thread it was brought up in... vondrack: the deal was heavily lopsided in your favour beaker-wise, so that one extra no-wonder on your side was meant as a balance vondrack: nevermind... we were waiting for a written agreement from your side vondrack: at least with a counterproposal or something vondrack: but we received nothing even though we sat on the save for 12+ hours Panzer_32: I was under the impression that you had agreed to it... I guess MZ wasn't entirely clear. vondrack: agreed to what? Panzer_32: the extra clause. vondrack: another no-wonder one? vondrack: it would have been difficult, since that wonder was not even named!? vondrack: Zargon expressed some understanding (and he got some heat in our forum even for that) Panzer_32: so you got Feudalism from GS? vondrack: but we have never been even informed about what kind of a wonder it should have been vondrack: well, yes, now for the Feu part vondrack: this is where things get really complicated vondrack: on the very turn all this was happening vondrack: we received Feudalism basically for free vondrack: not from GS vondrack: I am not sure if I can say from which team it was vondrack: we were waiting 12+ hours to hear back from you vondrack: but since we haven't heard back from you (nothing written) Panzer_32: sorry, we didn't know you were holding on to the save vondrack: we went ahead and accepted that Feudalism vondrack: yes vondrack: well, you know vondrack: Master Zen said (twice) vondrack: that he would send a written confirmation vondrack: never did so vondrack: plus this extra new clause we were not very excited about... vondrack: now, we still want to make a good deal with you Panzer_32: I don't know why he wouldn't have sent it... discussion in the thread stopped yesterday... vondrack: no idea - you will probably have to ask him Panzer_32: maybe he forgot vondrack: perhaps... but was reminded twice (by me, then by Zargon) Panzer_32: Well, I guess I'll report this back to the team vondrack: ok, now... can we try informally discuss whatever we can do now? vondrack: we are still interested in Chivalry vondrack: we still want to deliver at least Theology vondrack: and we are still interested in no-wonder clauses vondrack: can we work something out? vondrack: what about this: vondrack: Theology + no-Leo's for Chivalry + no-Sistine's? Panzer_32: ok. That sounds ok to me, I'll post it and see what others think vondrack: yeah - please, consider it just something to start from vondrack: I have no authorization from the team Panzer_32: right vondrack: but I believe that Legos will consider it a fair one vondrack: I know I would Panzer_32: ok, thats all for now? vondrack: do you have any other idea? Panzer_32: nope vondrack: this one was the first thing that occured to me... vondrack: well, then... I am quite sorry that the deal went wrong way Panzer_32: ok, bye for now vondrack: but we felt that rejecting the Feudalism offer we were made would not be the brightest thing to do, you know vondrack: though we would still do it vondrack: if we heard back from you vondrack: not sure if Master Zen is not used to sending things written vondrack: but things just discussed in chat are rather unreliable vondrack: we have two chatlogs with him vondrack: in the one with me vondrack: he said "accepted" vondrack: few hours later, with ZargonX vondrack: he said "modification needed" Panzer_32: I see your point vondrack: may I post this conversation in our forum? Panzer_32: sure vondrack: thanks Panzer_32: and may I do likewise? vondrack: vondrack: of course vondrack: ok, 3:30am here vondrack: bedtime vondrack: good night! Panzer_32: good night Session Close: Fri May 30 04:22:16 2003

	30-05-2003 12:55									#69
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...and shortly afterwards, Master Zen:

quote: Session Start: Fri May 30 03:47:37 2003 Session Ident: MasterZen Session Ident: MasterZen (Master@dup-200-66-232-15.prodigy.net.mx) MasterZen: are you there? vondrack: yep vondrack: hello MasterZen: just read the chat you had with Panzer MasterZen: and I'm rather surprised vondrack: hmmm... this deal was full of surprises, I think vondrack: first: can you explain this thing with me and ZargonX getting different info? vondrack: please MasterZen: first of all, I was told ZargonX would be Lego's leader, am I right? vondrack: yes MasterZen: when I posted the deal you sent me on our forum, some of our members expressed concern that we were agreeing to a 2-wonder no-build for a 1-wonder no-build MasterZen: so me and Zargon had another chat vondrack: well, yes - that was a balance for the beaker difference vondrack: ah, sorry - go on MasterZen: I suggested we go 2 for 2 MasterZen: he said, and I quote "but of course " vondrack: I read that chatlog, I know MasterZen: that I take as an informal agreement to be discussed internally between you MasterZen: various lines after, I said: MasterZen: consider the tech deal officially approved by us as of this moment MasterZen: MasterZen: it's just that little clause we have to change vondrack: no need to quote, MZ, I did read that log vondrack: Zargon got some heat for it vondrack: because even as a President, he is not authorized to "make" deals like this on his own MasterZen: I know the chats are logged vondrack, and since I have the last word on foreign affairs of our team, when I say "officially approved" that means it is MasterZen: now, Zargon never said anything of the sort and I never expected it vondrack: though it seems that it was, at least partially, a misunderstanding vondrack: he expected you to send a written proposal MasterZen: I honestly thought he would bring up the issue with your team vondrack: with the wonder named vondrack: he did vondrack: and we told him (almost unanimously, IIRC) that we did not feel it was something we should go for MasterZen: now, if your team did not like that modification for the reasons you just said, you or him could have just told me in the chat at any time and we could have still discussed it vondrack: the beaker cost of the two techs was like 2000:1500 MasterZen: he never brought that up vondrack: that one extra wonder was there to balance it in a way MasterZen: neither did you MasterZen: if you had said so, we would have probably understood vondrack: but it was dicussed a long time ago in the first chat with GF and Panzer32 MasterZen: and would have most likely approved the original deal as it is MasterZen: I wasn't there MasterZen: brb vondrack: well... ahem... the chats are logged vondrack: and I know GF posted that chatlog MasterZen: back vondrack: k vondrack: one note (just to avoid misunderstandings in the future): nothing is ever considered "in stone" until it is approved via a PM vondrack: at least in Lego - sorry, if it is different in GoW vondrack: now, whatever happened, happened MasterZen: still, I find it surprising that you still got Feud very very quickly MasterZen: seems like it was more of a priority than securing this deal vondrack: I do not think you are as surprised as we were vondrack: honestly MasterZen: our deal was still to be in place over 10 turns from now vondrack: it was nothing we would EVER talk about before MasterZen: 1 day of no response can hardly be considered surprising MasterZen: would you like to continue this in the GoW room? Panzer is there vondrack: no - I mean, the offer we got was surprising vondrack: it's getting late on my side (4am) MasterZen: surprising yet still negotiable, it was an idea MasterZen: an idea which could have still been discussed vondrack: I am still not making myself clear vondrack: the offer for Feudalism we got was surprising MasterZen: oh vondrack: not the extra-wonder clause from you MasterZen: may I inquire as to from who? vondrack: I am not sure I am authorized to tell vondrack: sorry MasterZen: why so secret? vondrack: well, see, this is a rather informal chat - I am no longer in a position to tell such things on my own vondrack: that all vondrack: I may be able to tell you vondrack: tomorrow MasterZen: ok MasterZen: see the things with chats is: MasterZen: you only make it as formal as you want it to MasterZen: If I chat with any team member then it is most likely informal MasterZen: but if I am chatting with the leader or the foreign affeirs minister then I would expect things to be a bit more solid vondrack: correct - but I am neither MasterZen: especially if he says the word "official" MasterZen: but Zargon was vondrack: I am now MoW, I think MasterZen: hehe vondrack: ah, that chat... I believe it was one unlucky misunderstanding vondrack: now, let's try to fix it vondrack: what can we do now to get rid of this unlucky situation? vondrack: mind you - this is informal vondrack: I will have to go through the team with whatever we can think up MasterZen: well, we really wanted that deal vondrack: MasterZen: as I said, we would have most likely agreed DESPITE you not accepting the 2 x 2 vondrack: right... perhaps it would have been better to accept it right away MasterZen: so we do feel kinda disappointed, especially since we had still quite some time to discuss that aspect of it, and you guys suddenly inform us of this vondrack: j/k vondrack: well - now, say what you would like to dnow MasterZen: no good negotiatior ever accepts the first deal vondrack: to do now MasterZen: as an ISDGer you should know vondrack: ah - that's not 100% when dealing with Lego vondrack: you may find out we are doing things a bit differently vondrack: our first offer is usually the best one MasterZen: btw, I'm ommitting this part if it ever gets logged, you know who is in our teamm... :P vondrack: yes vondrack: nevermind - try coming up with some idea now vondrack: say what you would like to do now MasterZen: perhaps we can add Engineering MasterZen: Eng-Chiv for Theo-Edu vondrack: we already have Eng prearranged vondrack: with Voxes MasterZen: see? and you had Feud prearranged with us and you dropped the deal vondrack: ah, not quite the same vondrack: sorry if I sound difficult vondrack: but we have a signed deal on the Engineering vondrack: we had nothing signed with you vondrack: let's get over it, please vondrack: we are not going to fix that misunderstanding ex post vondrack: I gave one idea to Panzer - Theo+noLeo for Chiv+noSistine vondrack: we may even honor our initial deal, to show good will vondrack: though we would appreciate some token of good will from your side, too MasterZen: that sounds good vondrack: like your world map? IIRC, it was suggested in the initial chat with GF+Panzer32 MasterZen: as I told Zargon, I feel Lego-GoW relations should be solid rock vondrack: yep, our desire, too MasterZen: or "solid block" ? MasterZen: haha vondrack: LoL MasterZen: yes, that sounds interesting vondrack: I will post that in our forum after I wake up MasterZen: ok, let's get things straight then, vondrack: ok MasterZen: I'll discuss this with our team and get back to you with a written PM MasterZen: in the meanwhile I am free to further discuss this with Zargon or you vondrack: maybe - I shall discuss first with my team, since this is really just my idea, not an official proposal from Lego - will you not mind? MasterZen: no problem vondrack: I sometimes find myself trying to do things differently from the rest of my team MasterZen: I will discuss it too MasterZen: I feel your pain, sometimes I feel the same vondrack: ok - ask about that world map part, please MasterZen: as we say in spanish, that will be the "meollo" of the business vondrack: I will ask about both ideas I had (smaller deal / initial deal + WM) MasterZen: ok vondrack: sorry - I know not a single word in Spanish MasterZen: haha MasterZen: $30 an hour the lesson vondrack: and will try to get back to you within two days, ok? MasterZen: ok vondrack: good vondrack: I have to go to bed vondrack: 4:20am here MasterZen: I'm glad things have been straightened out vondrack: tired as hell MasterZen: I don't want our relationship to be dented at all vondrack: us neither MasterZen: because dented Lego Blocks don't join very well :P vondrack: hehe vondrack: right MasterZen: ok, I won't keep you up MasterZen: good night vondrack: ok, good night! Session Close: Fri May 30 04:22:13 2003

	30-05-2003 13:16									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Now...

First: Tiberius was right - it was rather unfortunate of ZargonX to show no disagreement immediately in that chat with Master Zen. He/GoW is now feeling as if we were too quick to trash our deal. It really made things unnecessarily complicated for both sides. Lesson learned: demands unlikely to be accepted shall be at least doubted and "needed to be discussed with the team". Whatever - let's just never pose as it's ok...

Second: GoW, despite our going ahead and acquiring Feudalism elsewhere, did not use this opportunity to go hostile towards us. Instead, they make pretty serious diplomatic efforts to fix the situation. This is actually very encouraging, as it shows we do not have to fear anything from them in the foreseeable future (as this would be a perfect opportunity to make our relation sour in a "controlled" way).

Third: we taught them the lesson we taught GS in the past. I made sure Master Zen got the message - if Lego offers you a deal, you better take it if you like it, and you better take it quick. Bargaining shall hardly give you a better one.

Fourth: we now have a fine chance to show a ton of good will by still honouring our original trade proposal. It's true that we effectively lose 150g "paid" to Vox, but we would make GoW owe us. Just as trashing the deal altogether would make our relations probably sour, still honouring it (despite not having to) shall achieve the exact opposite - improve them and make us look very good and extremely trustworthy (and strengthening our ties with them was the primary reason of this deal, IIRC). As a balance, we would probably get GoW's world map, which is not exactly a 150g value, but it still is slightly better than nothing...

I would like to hear everybody's comment on the idea of effectively trading Theo+Edu+noLeo for Chivalry+noSistine+noBach+WM now. In case you would not approve it - what kind of a balance we should ask to make the deal acceptable in your eyes?

If you are totally against it, what about Theo+noLeo for Chiv+noSistine?

My suggestion would be to honour our original deal, even if it means effectively waiving those 150 gold paid to Vox (or, rather... buying GoW's world map for 150 gold). Whatever helps make someone else GoW's next target is fine with me - as showed by Sharpe in his threat assessment thread, GoW is the only team capable of giving us headaches.

Oh, and I will tell ya... it was the right thing to step down from the Presidential post - I now have SO MUCH more time to sleep...

	30-05-2003 16:34									#71
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I agree with both proposals, although if I were to choose between them, I'd pick the original deal.

Obviously the second proposal would be a better one from a strictly business point of view, but we wanted to be the trustworthy trading partner for anyone from the beginning, so let act like one. Unfortunately we have our part of fault (that "but of course" was a very bad move) so we have to "pay". Honoring our almost signed treaty is the best way to go. I hope they've learned their lesson, and will hurry to sign treaties with us, not delaying them endlessly.

quote: vondrack: ah - that's not 100% when dealing with Lego vondrack: you may find out we are doing things a bit differently vondrack: our first offer is usually the best one

Ahh, I loved that

One more note: I wouldn't tell where we have Feud from. Our whole relationship with Vox is secretive so let put this Feud thing in the same basket.

	30-05-2003 20:37									#72
	Got spare money?

Hmm... this is why I hate text chatting. I think this whole "but of course" thing is an excellent example of how things can be misinterpreted. Whether because of language or idiom, what I mean by "but of course" is clearly not the same to others. For the matter of discussion, I say it as a "I see, please go on" not an "I agree completely with you" statement. So, in the future, I will be more careful with my words, remembering that they don't mean the same thing to everyone, and I apologize for that.

With that said, I am glad to see that GoW is willing to move on from this issue. As I have said, I think they are trustworthy partners. Personally, I would go for the first deal (with the WM). 150 gold is a minor price to pay at this point for maintaining good relations.

And, finally, we still need a new ambassador to GoW. No one wants this job?

	30-05-2003 21:45									#73
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ok, we can all learn from this the main thing is alway make sure they know the deal can't be accepted by just you, you have to bring it to the team. It also taught me some thing keep a better eye on chats not done by me. I'm to use to vondrack being able to do just as well as me.

	30-05-2003 21:46									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Also make sure they PM us the deal.

	31-05-2003 03:09									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I'd go with the slightly modified original deal: Theo+Edu+noLeo for Chivalry+noSistine+noBach+WM

I can't remember if the "No Sistine" clause includes getting a similiar clause from anyone they sell it to... if not, let's try to include that as well in the new deal.

	31-05-2003 13:12									#76
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Alright. I believe it is safe to assume we, as a team, are ok with honouring our original deal, just slightly modified. I am going to send the following PM to Master Zen:

quote: Greetings, people of GoW! (all three of you ) Legoland has always wished to be on the best terms with Glory of War. In order to make this more than just hollow words and to demonstrate our good will and genuine desire for peaceful coexistence and close cooperation, we have decided to honour the trade we discussed, though never signed. As we were, in the meantime, while our negotiations stalled a little bit, able to acquire Feudalism from another source, we would respectfully ask for two minor modifications to the previously proposed agreement as a sign of good will from your side. quote: Legoland-GoW Theo+Edu/Chiv trade agreement 1) Legoland agrees to provide GoW with Theology and Education. GoW agrees to not resell/trade/gift these techs to any other party for 20 turns from receiving Education. After these 20 turns, GoW agrees to not trade Theology to any other team, unless that team also agrees to not build Sistine's Chapel as part of the trade. 2) GoW agrees to provide Legoland with Chivalry and its World Map. Legoland agrees to not resell/trade/gift Chivalry to any other party for 20 turns after receiving it. 3) Legoland agrees to not attempt to build Leonardo's Workshop as long as GoW remains in the game. 4) GoW agrees to not attempt to build Sistine's Chapel and Bach's Cathedral as long as Legoland remains in the game. 5) The trade shall happen right after the last of the three techs is discovered. First, Theology shall be sent as "accepted" to GoW. On the next turn, GoW will send "accepted" Chivalry and its World Map, and Legoland will send "accepted" Education. On behalf of Legoland: vondrack, Vice-President & Military Architect Best regards, vondrack

	31-05-2003 19:47									#77
	Got spare money?

Actually if GoW would be willing to substitute Engineering for Feudalism, I would go for it , as they are more likely to get it quicker than Vox will.

I don't know if the double no-wonder clause is useful as we are very likely not to get both. I still prefer my idea of no-Sistine with a substitute of Bach if some other civ gets Sistine.

	31-05-2003 19:58									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Sharpe Actually if GoW would be willing to substitute Engineering for Feudalism, I would go for it , as they are more likely to get it quicker than Vox will.

Nope.

GoW is getting Engineering from Voxes - that I know.

	04-06-2003 02:38									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

We finally have our trade agreement with GoW:

quote: Thank you Vondrack; I'm writing on behaf of MasterZen who is currently experiencing internet problems that the agreement is accepted by the Glory of War. Thanks Panzer32, temporary Emperor and current Consul of Internal Affairs of the Glory of War. quote: a copy of our PM to Master Zen: Greetings, people of GoW! (both two of you ) Legoland has always wished to be on the best terms with Glory of War. In order to make this more than just hollow words and to demonstrate our good will and genuine desire for peaceful coexistence and close cooperation, we have decided to honour the trade we discussed, though never signed. As we were, in the meantime, while our negotiations stalled a little bit, able to acquire Feudalism from another source, we would respectfully ask for two minor modifications to the previously proposed agreement as a sign of good will from your side. [quote]Legoland-GoW Theo+Edu/Chiv trade agreement 1) Legoland agrees to provide GoW with Theology and Education. GoW agrees to not resell/trade/gift these techs to any other party for 20 turns from receiving Education. After these 20 turns, GoW agrees to not trade Theology to any other team, unless that team also agrees to not build Sistine's Chapel as part of the trade. 2) GoW agrees to provide Legoland with Chivalry and its World Map. Legoland agrees to not resell/trade/gift Chivalry to any other party for 20 turns after receiving it. 3) Legoland agrees to not attempt to build Leonardo's Workshop as long as GoW remains in the game. 4) GoW agrees to not attempt to build Sistine's Chapel and Bach's Cathedral as long as Legoland remains in the game. 5) The trade shall happen right after the last of the three techs is discovered. First, Theology shall be sent as "accepted" to GoW. On the next turn, GoW will send "accepted" Chivalry and its World Map, and Legoland will send "accepted" Education. On behalf of Legoland: vondrack, Vice-President & Military Architect

	09-06-2003 10:53									#80
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Ok, GoW is up to something. In the chatroom with them yesterday, several of their members were having a private chat, and something was being fiercely debated. Whatever it was, they decided it would be begun in 3 turns.

So, naturally, that put me a little on edge. Usually that sort of debate surrounds a military decision. Though maybe I'm being over paranoid, maybe we might want to shuffle a few troops back north; just in case. I really, really doubt that they would be attacking us, but better to be safe than sorry, yes?

	09-06-2003 11:42									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Actually, even without this warning, we sort of ARE shuffling troops to counter a theoretical invasion in the North... eventually (within ~2 turns), we will have two elite mercs and a vet sword in Jackson and 2-3 reg mercs and a reg sword in Panama. Both cities are on hills, so that should be enough to give us time enough to delay anyone trying to catch us by surprise... plus, we have money enough to prmptly goldrush reinforcements in both Panama and Jackson. And Legopolis would be able to spit a merc or sword every two turns.

I do not say it would be a walk in a park, but we would fend off or hold an invasion of up to 8 knights, I believe.

Plus, if I suspected ANYONE from surprise attacking us, it would not be GoW - we have signed such a lopsided tech deal with them recently that they would have to be nuts to attack us NOW, before they get what they are supposed to according to the trade agreement.

I am quite strongly conviced this is all about an all-out attack at GS.

	10-06-2003 04:33									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Kloreep and I were just chatting about this.

Kloreep wonders if GoW would be attacking ND.

I wonder whether they would be too, but doing so in an alliance in Gathering Storm?

Not saying that it is the case, but GS does have the money to hire GoW.

For us a GS-GoW alliance is particularly troublesome as we would have to seriously consider switching to that alliance....

I mean would you want to be in an alliance with RP as our major ally?

	10-06-2003 08:21									#83
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Chat with Panzer tonight, trying to get some info on things in general...

quote: ZargonX> hey Panzer ZargonX> may I speak with you for a bit? Panzer_32> hey there Panzer_32> sure ZargonX> Well, basically, I just wanted to talk about the world situation with you, as it were Panzer_32> ok ZargonX> how are things going for GoW these days? Panzer_32> fine ZargonX> ZargonX> how do you all feel about the developments on Estonia? Panzer_32> I think that GS is going to control Estonia eventually ZargonX> it does seem that way, yes Panzer_32> basically Vox either needs somewhere to go or they will be wiped out. ZargonX> how are your relations with GS? ZargonX> you don't have to answer that, of course Panzer_32> I don't mind... we're cordial with them ZargonX> and how is the situation on Bob now? ZargonX> stable? Panzer_32> we're trying to work with GS and Vox to get a solution soon ZargonX> ah, that's good Panzer_32> yeah, Bob is stable at the moment ZargonX> GoW as peace negotiators... how unexpected ZargonX> well, I didn't really have a point for this chat, per se ZargonX> but we feel it's a good time in the world to reforge diplomatic bonds ZargonX> and we value highly our relation with your people Panzer_32> The Bob situation may be sort of a ballence of power though Panzer_32> no one power wants to war with another b/c the third will gang up on them ZargonX> yes, I could see how that would be a sticky situation Panzer_32> yes, our teams have always been good friends... opposites attract I guess ZargonX> We think it's a mutually beneficial relationship for all involved ZargonX> and your team has always been fair and honest with us, which is more than we can say for others... Panzer_32> One of the possibilities for the Vox solution would be for them to settle somewhere on Legoland continent... what do you say to this? ZargonX> no one has spoken to us directly about it yet ZargonX> so as of yet, we really haven't had a proposal to comment on Panzer_32> We do value both fairness and keeping contracts Panzer_32> right, but what do you think of the basic concept of it? ZargonX> well, it is a possibility ZargonX> of course, it'd be something that'd have to be negotiated out Panzer_32> I'm just wondering because there has been quite an amount of talk about it as well as other plans in our forum. I wondered how active the discussion has been in other teams forums ZargonX> we've basically been holding off speculating about it until Vox contacted us directly Panzer_32> ok... Vox seems reluctant to realize that they need to get off Estonia if they want to survive ZargonX> I guess they're sort of hanging in with all they've got ZargonX> I'm sure we'll hear something soon from them if things keep up Panzer_32> Even with Roleplay's Iron, whatever financing youre giving them, as well as whatever support we can give them w/o compromizing our own security can't really compete with GS and their economy. ZargonX> Has RP confirmed to you that they're giving Vox iron? Panzer_32> not officially I believe... but its sort of taken for granted ZargonX> in a recent talk we had with RP ZargonX> they sort of gave us the impression that they were bowing out of the whole affair ZargonX> we might have been misunderstanding them, though ZargonX> but a powerful GS would be a problem for the Bob situation, you think? ZargonX> if one team and GS allied against the others ZargonX> sorry... got disconnected randomly... Panzer_32> yes, it would (powerful GS). But there are some things we can't really influence too much Panzer_32> I hadn't posted when you were disconnected ZargonX> ZargonX> yes, changing the GS situation would be difficult at this point ZargonX> well, that pretty much covers it ZargonX> like I said, just a friendly catch-up chat Panzer_32> ok... you got disconnected; do you want a transcript at all? ZargonX> if you don't mind, that'd be great ZargonX> first rule of diplomacy: write it all down Panzer_32> ok ZargonX> oh, one other thing... ZargonX> in regards to our tech deal... Panzer_32> ? ZargonX> do you have an ETA on Chiv? ZargonX> so we can time the trade for Edu Panzer_32> chivalry should come in about 7 turns ZargonX> oh, great! that should time quite nicely Panzer_32> oh? ZargonX> I mean, with the arrival of Edu Panzer_32> edu coming at the same time? ZargonX> 2 turns later, I believe... ZargonX> but I can't get into the forum to check for sure... Panzer_32> ok, 2 turn delay isn't a big deal Panzer_32> we probably won't be building universities any time soon ZargonX> ZargonX> I'll PM you with a firm figure when I get the save Panzer_32> no, thats ok, don't bother. Just tell us when your'e getting close ZargonX> no problem! ZargonX> anyway, have to run for a bit! ZargonX> been nice chatting with you Panzer_32> ok, I'm just about to send the log to you ZargonX> great, thanks! ZargonX> talk to you later! Panzer_32> bye ZargonX> so long!

	10-06-2003 10:25									#84
	Increase Your PM Length

Ok, after the devlopments with the ND scout, I had a chat with MZ. I accidentally lost the log, but let me summarize:

-I asked if they were under contract with any other nations.
-MZ didn't give a yes or no, but asked if we needed their services.
-I said we may be intersted in putting them on retainer.
-MZ wanted to know against whom.
-I wouldn't answer.
-He asked if it was someone GoW had access to.
-I said don't they have access to everyone
-I asked if there was anyone that GoW would NOT fight.
-MZ said they would fight anyone, but needed more details.
-I said we had a situation that could go either way, but that we wanted to be ready just in case.
-MZ said they would probably agree to any proposal that we gave them.
-I reaffirmed that we wanted a strong relationship.
-MZ agreed, and said to send him more info when ready.
-I said we needed some team time to talk, and that I'd get back to him soon.

	26-06-2003 23:32									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

And just to keep everybody posted:

quote: Session Start: Thu Jun 26 20:17:13 2003 Session Ident: Panzer32 vondrack: hello, Panzer! vondrack: u here? Panzer32: yeah vondrack: just briefly checking - any ETA on Chivalry? Panzer32: 190bc vondrack: 2 turns to go then, right? Panzer32: yes vondrack: we should be done with Edu in 150BC vondrack: 5 turns from now Panzer32: ok, great! vondrack: yeah, that will work nicely... vondrack: vondrack: ok, that's all - won't keep you any longer Panzer32: ok, see you later Session Close: Thu Jun 26 20:21:46 2003

I seem to keep "misremembering" the correct date of the discovery of Education...

	07-07-2003 09:30									#86
	Increase the size of your Attachments

As I said, I started to ball rolling on the next round of tech trades with GoW. Nothing complex so far, just a confirmation of Astronomy for Invention, most likely.

quote: ZargonX> Hey MZ! MasterZen> hey ZargonX> Just wanted to let you know, we have sent Theo on to you this turn as part of the Lego-GoW tech agreement ZargonX> Edu will be forthcoming after that MasterZen> ah ok! MasterZen> good, you shall get the merchandise in return ZargonX> Excellent ZargonX> We would also be interested in discussing another round of trades, if you are all willing MasterZen> sure, what are you guys going for? ZargonX> Well, we are assuming you are going down the Invention route... ZargonX> and we will be going for Astronomy ZargonX> If you are indeed going for Inv, we would like to possibly work out something for those MasterZen> yes that sounds ideal ZargonX> Excellent! MasterZen> Astronomy for Invention... ZargonX> Yes, we feel that would be beneficial to all MasterZen> hey, as long as no two teams research the same tech, it is ZargonX> heh, very true ZargonX> I will write up a draft proposal, and PM it to you shortly MasterZen> great ZargonX> Sounds good! MasterZen> we'll most likely agree to it ZargonX> Wonderful! As always, a pleasure working with you!

	07-07-2003 09:50									#87
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Ah, I should have read the previous chat and I'd have known then that GoW has finished Chiv for some turns now

	07-07-2003 10:11									#88
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Shouldn't we ask for a small amount of money to balance the difference between Astronomy and Invention? I know that we want to keep GoW happy with the trades they make with us, especially now that they have Chivalry, but 300 beakers are 300 beakers. We should ask for something in exchange; let's see: 50-80 gold shouldn't sound outrageous. Or maybe it would be the time to sign a long NAP with them? (since we can't land on Bob anyway)

So IMHO, we could propose a NAP+Astronomy for NAP+Invention + (50 : 80) gold and settle on a deal without the gold, since the NAP is more important. The gold part is important to let them think that they've done a good deal.

	07-07-2003 11:19									#89
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Agreed with Tibi - no need to exaggerate our generosity...

	07-07-2003 11:59									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

to getting an NAP. (How long since the ND treaty was signed? And do we want to time our NAP to the one with ND, or extend it beyond it?) to trying to get some gold on the side. Even 100 wouldn't be an outrageous amount to ask for, though it could certainly drop.