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redstar1
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Belfast, Northern Ireland
Apr 2001
time: 05:26
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quote:
redstar1,
no problem on the explanations, that's why we want these proposals to be precise I thought everything came from the chat, but it's only normal that both parties have a different understanding on the contents, so better to make it clear then.
Currency&Construction for republic should be okay for us, we'd prefer to have it beforehand, so we don't waste turns on less then 100% science, though. That's why we asked for immediate, but 1 turn beforehand should be fine as well.
Natural disasters: when recounting, it seems we made a little mistake, in that we missed one turn. At best, we should get republic in turn 83, and if anything would go wrong, that goes to turn 84. And it seems something is going wrong, there has been a lot of pressure coming from Bob, and it might be needed for us to change the order in which our cities are founded to better protect out territory... it's not definate yet, but that change might make republic only possible in turn 84, leaving us no time in between getting the tech, and trading it onwards.
The problem is Vox... there was some kind of implicit understanding that we wouldn't bother to settle Bob, and none of the Bobians would come bother us here. But, last turn, Vox landed a settler and a couple of immortals on Bob, and GoW is getting pissed, and threatening. They somehow think it is a common plan of Vox and GS to invade them... as a result, we need to rearrange our cities, to settle in more defensive position first, instead of going for the least corrupted, and most commerce city sites...
Natural disasters: normally this shouldn't cover changes in city placement because of external tension, the intention (and when I first wrote it, the only real reason) for that clause is because we have been hit by disease a couple of times already in this game. And, because of the bug that disease strikes for two consecutive turns each time it hits you, this can make a big difference in gathered resources... we would have been over 3 cities more powerful now, if it wasn't for disease. It was simply a clause that would make it possible for us to be unlucky in the game, without needing to feel the diplomatic repercussions of that.
Free tech: I misuderstood you, I think... I only stated in chat that we would trade it to you, implying at a favorable price, because it wouldn't be logical for Vox to give it to you for free (and neither would it for us to give republic+monotheism for currency+construction, that's about triple the beaker cost). I do not think anyone of our team will agree for this...
Sorry, hard pressed for time (I need to give classes now), more this evening. Please don't hesitate to contact me!
DeepO
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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OK, a quick update. Talking to GF of GoW earlier today, he expressed a lot of interest in acquiring Republic from us, so dropping that from our deal seems to be unlikely (the deal is still being debated a bit, but basically agreed upon).
TOP SECRET INFO: GF told me all the Bobian civs were going to declare war on Estonians this turn. Let's see what that does for our cause... until then, we shall not respond to last DeepO's message (the last redstar's message was actually not sent - it's just a draft).
Also, I have arranged a chat with BetaHound of Voxes for 10:00pm GMT this evening - I hope to get detailed info on how likely it is or might be to trade for Monotheism with Voxes directly, bypassing the "greedy"  GS. (Tibi, if you can drop into the Lego chatroom around 10pm GMT, I'd copy the conversation for you, so that you can follow it and suggest ideas. I believe that an "informal" chat would be best to start with... but if things go smoothly, we may later make it more official by Nimitz, you, and redstar joining in (whoever is online at that moment).
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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After having almost the whole day to think the deal with GS over, I suggest we respond as follows:
quote:
Dear DeepO,
I think we probably have misunderstood each other on the issue of the free technology.  Our original idea was that it would be kinda like a three-sided deal with GS, Vox, and Lego involved. GS would be providing Republic, Voxes would be providing their free tech, and Lego would be providing Currency+Construction (beaker costs approximately the same...). Everybody was supposed to get all the techs - it seemed to be a fair deal to us.
Well, we now see that it is not probably going to work, so let's try discussing two possibilities:
1) suppose we agree to get Monotheism from you for a "favourable price" - what is your idea of this "favourable price", please?
2) suppose we get all the way back to your original idea: trading Currency+Construction (resale rights for Voxes & ND included) for Republic+gold (resale rights for GoW and maybe RPers included). How much gold would you offer to balance the beaker cost difference between The Republic (672) and Currency+Construction combined (384+480=864)? The resale right part is fortunately equal on both sides...
If you can provide us with some figures for both of these option, it would help us to make our choice and proceed with the deal.
Best regards,
redstar1 |
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redstar1
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Belfast, Northern Ireland
Apr 2001
time: 05:26
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quote:
redstar1, I suspected this... a miscommunication, no fault or wrong intent by either side... so let's get back to the trading table then, I'm sure we'll work something out
Unfortunately, I still was unable to fully catch up to the current situation, but from our side, one of the reason to make this a double 2-sided deal instead of a 3-side one is that we need some options in how to deal with Vox. This was true beforehand because Vox is unstable, a (long term) risk to us, and we had a former deal to wrap up, but this has become even more true given the new situation.
With Vox and Bob very close to, or even in the middle of a war, they become an even larger liability. Normally, they should be able to survive to the time we need to supply cons+curr to them, but if Bob really does unite against Vox - as GF has been claiming - they will not survive much longer after getting monotheism. It could make their willingness to trade with us as a group a whole lot more difficult. Consider that, if Vox knows that GS and the Legos are getting very close, they also know that somewhere down the road they are being dropped from the head of the tech race, a position they now only have because of us.
Given this, there are two things we would like to insist on:
1) this deal will be between us two, with perhaps reasonable guesses of what others can contribute, but without them getting involved in our agreement. We'll deal with Vox separately, we simply have to.
2) as much as possible, we try to consider monotheism as something we aim for, but not something definate, as the situation with Vox does not make it a definate thing. Making it part of the deal makes sense as it will be the next tech on the market, and either one of us will need it to start on hiis new tech, but we should provide enough "plan B"s in case something goes wrong when getting it. We thought Lux would be an advantage to us if we let them stay on our continent, we were wrong... we rather not have another diplo hit because some civ gets eradicated.
Further ideas: Vox will get construction and currency from us, we are bound here by a former deal we can not revoke, nor renegotiate. They could agree to get it from you for some laugable price (which I believe they have tried to negotiate to see what the current price for techs are), but never will they pay anything valuable because they already have one source secured. If they wouldn't get the techs from us, they will not get any compensation out of our side, so anything they spend is a pure loss. (except for improved relations, which are perhaps the most valuable asset in this game)
... continued...
...
As to your questions:
1) "favourable price" could mean a lot, but basically in this context it means that we fully understand the 'first' deal of curr+constr for rep is largely in our favor, and we owe you for that. We would like to have it included in (at least the beginning of) a long term tech deal, which would make its virtual value its beaker cost, to be offsetted by a future trade from us.
If I need to put a money tag on it (mind you, my opinion, GS has not seen this yet), I would say that a favourable price should mean that for all the deals other teams might strike on that tech, legoland should get the bottom price. That should be low enough, I think, but it's hard to put a precise number of it... maybe half, or one third of 'first' price.
2) not nit-picking, but the resale part of the techs is not the same, not by far even. If we get currency+construction from you, the moment we get it, at least 4 other teams have it as well, perhaps even 5 of them (only leaving Vox as last). We could 'resell' it to them, but the actual value of it is bottom price, as in theory (without the previous GS-Vox deal) they would have 4 or 5 sources to trade it from. Further, you will resell the techs to us, instead of researching themselves. Not that it tastes any different, but those are third-hand techs we're getting
Republic, OTOH, has full resell value, you will get it before anyone else by at least a few turns, and you will have two sure buyers for it. They will still offer premium prices (and you better insist on it!), as they will not be able to get it from another source, we will not sell it to them, and will enforce NDAs on 'our' rep-deals.
Last resale comment: ND is no sure buyer for us, maybe we can enforce republic, but the other techs they will likely get before us.
So, the resale part does negate the pure difference cost in beakers a bit, meaning that difference should translate into about 40 gold or so (again, no proposal, just a personal guess!). Instead of precisely calculating the costs, we would rather have this surpluss written on our 'GS favour -- needs to be repaid to Lego' tab, and solving the difference with a future deal.
But if you want, I can start an official poll on how much we would be willing to pay in gold; I'll gladly do it if it would make the deal easier for you. We are not that short on change to risk losing friends
Kind regards,
DeepO
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
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OK, guys, I have read GS message and got almost as pissed as most of you, I guess... but then, I watched a fine movie and got myself "organized" again. I'm now strongly convinced we can use the situation to our own benefit.
First:
1) Keep in mind we never revealed to GS that we were the "first hand" source of Construction (at first, it was a bit intentional, then it just... hmmm... kinda "went on" ). If they believe we are just reselling it, let it be that way. We do not need to tell them. If they try to push us for even more unfair terms, we will simply stall the negotiations and quietly wait for them to come to us, begging for Construction (as they will be unable to get it anywhere else, thus left stuck in the ancient times, once done with Republic - and IF they end up stuck there, we will only benefit from that... getting a head start on the medieval research, even if not on Theology, which we'd probably normally start with).
2) I agree that GS looked like a much more reasonable trading partner early on... now, it seems like they are just another un-freaking-believably "smart" team very much determined to rip Lego off (has anyone else noticed that we strike best deals with GoW, and quite easily?).
3) Since what DeepO mentions (Rep+40 gold for our techs) is almost what we are looking for, I suggest we hide ANY sign of frustration by their cheeky approach to the deal and strike it. Let them believe they ripped us off big time. Once they find out (when we get Mono from Voxes), it'll be too late for them - and with Monotheism in our pocket, we will be able to set our own course of actions... maybe cooperating, maybe not.
4) Let's mention NOTHING about Voxes. Not even the slightest hint we are actually doing business with them, helping them, or knowing anything about their chances. GS apparently have no clue - and it shall stay that way.
That said, I suggest we respond like this:
quote:
Dear DeepO,
We are glad that we are getting to understand each other's stance better. We are now fully aware of your concerns and - even though not all your assumptions are 100% correct - we agree that in general, you often do have a point.
We understand that setting the price for Monotheism in advance is quite tricky. Let's handle it once it is actually available for trading then... we believe that GS' word is to be trusted and that a "favourable price" will, in fact, be a truly favourable price.
To make things simpler to handle, we suggest that we now work on signing a trade agreement regarding the technologies available in the nearest future: Currency, Construction, and Republic.
As our preliminary negotiations with RPers indicate they have no interest in acquiring The Republic (or at least, they pretend so... it may sometimes be difficult to tell what they truly are after), we no longer ask for resale rights to this team - as they would be virtually useless for us for the foreseeable future.
Thus, the deal we would like to talk about now, boils down to:
1) Legoland would provide Currency & Construction to GS one turn before GS would provide Republic to Legoland. Legoland would grant GS rights to resell/trade/gift Currency & Construction to Vox Controli and Neu Demogyptica. Legoland would also agree that it would not attempt to sell/trade/gift Currency or Construction to Vox Controli, nor Neu Demogyptica.
2) GS would agree to provide Legoland with Republic no later than on (its) Turn 84. GS would grant Legoland rights to resell/trade/gift Republic to Glory of War. GS would also agree to not attempt to sell/trade/gift Republic to Glory of War.
3) To offset the difference in research costs between Currency+Construction and Republic (considering the effective trading potential of the resale rights provided by both teams approximately equal), GS will pay Legoland a balance payment of 70 gold, payable on the same turn as the transfer of Republic happens. |
Naturally, those 70 gold may go down to as low as 50, if they bargain... as always, let's start a bit higher so that we have some manoeuvring room later on.
Everybody, comment, please. There is no rush (for us ), so I assume we would PM DeepO sometimes tomorrow later in the afternoon or even in the evening European time.
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redstar1
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Belfast, Northern Ireland
Apr 2001
time: 05:26
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quote:
Thanks Redstar1,
It's truely a pleasure to see our understanding grow. Allow me to try to improve it a little more, by responding personally, before I post your last message to our board
Further problems have risen on our tech deal. ND is, as was feared, not interested in any of the techs we could offer. We have serious reasons to believe they are researching currency, but republic as well did not interest them. This was before Vox started to negotiate for staying on Bob, so they wouldn't be getting it from Vox, and neither from you... we are wondering where republic would comes from.
This seems (maybe again under the wrong assumptions, but they're the best we can go on right now) to be because either RP is researching the republic, or GoW will sell republic to the other two once it gets it from you. We should definately rule out the second possibility, by forcing NDAs on both GoW and Vox, e.g. for a 10 turn period. If Bob deals amongst itself, we (I mean GS-Lego combined) get less profit from the techs...
If RP is getting republic themselves (which is certainly likely if they don't want to get it from you), it's actually not that bad for the world situation, any team can save more gold for trading techs then beakers needed to do their own research in the same time. If they spend beakers, with the result that both Lego and GS gets a bit less gold in total, it should still favor us because Bob has fewer gold then if they would have bought the techs from us.
One more remark; the value of currency took another dip. Not only can't we sell it to them (which we foresaw), but if they are researching it, it means that the moment you get it, it's third hand, the moment we get it, we're second last for sure. You know that the beaker cost of currency will have dropped close to half its value in game, I hope you are not offended if we regard it the same in our negotiations. Most likely, the same happens with construction, I wouldn't be surprised if actually the deal becomes in your favour if we simply swap curr+constr for republic.
If you would have asked for an amount of gold 10 days ago, I'm sure 70 gold would not have been a problem (it would have been high even then, but it would mean that we could set timing for the release of republic to the world, which we now cannot because RP gets Rep as well), but right now, I don't think my team will agree. Even the 40 I speculated about in last PM starts to sound as a supergift from us, the situation has changed quite a bit, and it forces us to take it into account while renegotiating.
My apologies, but as I still believe that honesty pays off in diplomatic contact, I have to advise you to drop the gold part of the deal, it would make its acceptance on GS's side a lot easier and friendlier. Our whole team agrees that Legoland is our main hope for getting a stable friend in this game, but not eveyone is willing to give up as much to get there. I will offer your proposal to the board, but I doubt it will get accepted...
Maybe it's good to try to speed things up, we're not that far from turn 84 anymore. I would definately meet on Sunday, to discuss this deal if it still needs debate, and start on swapping ideas on future business, to not get crammed for time. Further, I'd be delighted to exchange notes on what we think is happening on Bob, it's clear that they are our common problem in this game if we want to fare well in the (far) future.
BTW, just to confirm that we are still on track for turn 84, but that the slightest disaster (like disease, which always seems to happen at crucial times in this game) will mean turn 85. We miscalculated, and had to adjust plans because of the current threat, but our econ-wizzards wringed another few beakers out of our empire and we should get there in time. It will mean that the delay (between getting and giving rep) we had hoped for is gone, but we're happy we can at least meet our promises to you.
Greetz,
DeepO
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24-03-2003 12:23
Fortunately time is more pressing for them than for us. We will have Currency in 4 turns, while the Republic is coming later (in 6, AFAIR).
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