28-03-2003 12:39									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I like this. We could send in the same time with the save a message saying that the price of Construction+Currency has went up to Republic+80 for treating us with disrespect and not trusting us. Seriously though, it is about time to put a foot in the door with the GS.

I would prefer we keep pretending being "naive builder fools" instead...

Let's send them a message then, explaining we were not sure about if we would discover Currency before anyone else would... and that the price reflected this "uncertainty". Now that things are "certain", we feel that it is fair to increas the price "just a little bit" to Rep+80. And that we are still happy to go with our deal as proposed if they are still interested.

Let's not allow any signs of anger or embarrasment leak out... there is no need. Be friendly, talk about future research cooperation and such... They WILL realize they shot themselves in the foot and they will be much more likely to treat us with more respect next time, even if we keep being totally polite and friendly...

Besides, the fact they underestimate us is OUR great advantage.

And BTW... being here among my dear Legos only, I would like to say something personal regarding this matter, too: "Fvck Gathering Storm!"

	28-03-2003 23:55									#92
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Well, time to teach GS a small lesson...

Whoever plays this turn (#82) shall send a PM to DeepO along with the savegame, possibly putting a note about that PM being sent into the email having the savegame attached.

What about something like this (make sure that we really are the only source of C+C before sending this! - check the F4 screen to confirm both techs are our exclusives at that moment):

quote: Dear DeepO, Legoland is happy to inform Gathering Storm that we have just discovered the Currency! As we have already been knowing the art of Construction for some time, we are now ready to strike the deal we have been talking about any time now... providing you with Currency and Construction in exchange for Republic and a balance in gold. We were not 100% sure whether we'd be able to discover Currency before the German team (quite a headstart they had!), but we are proud to inform you we've succeeded! As the price proposed in our recent draft was reduced a little bit due to this "uncertainty", we would now respectfully like to make a very small adjustment reflecting the fact that Gathering Storm would be receiving two technologies no other team posseses at this moment. Considering the information from your last message, stating ND was not interested in trading for either of Currency/Construction with you, we'd like to offer you the following trade agreement - it is basically the previous proposal, only slightly adjusted for the latest developments (text already made into a trade agreement draft): 1) Legoland agrees to provide Currency & Construction to GS one turn before GS provides Republic to Legoland. Legoland agrees to grant GS rights to resell/trade/gift Currency & Construction to Vox Controli. Legoland also agrees to not attempt to sell/trade/gift Currency or Construction to Vox Controli for 10 turns. GS agrees to not resell/trade/gift Currency & Construction to any other team for 10 turns. GS also agrees to ensure Vox Controli will not trade Currency or Construction to any other team for at least 10 turns. 2) GS agrees to provide Legoland with Republic no later than on (its) Turn 84. GS agrees to grant Legoland rights to resell/trade/gift Republic to Glory of War. GS also agrees to not attempt to sell/trade/gift Republic to Glory of War for 10 turns. Legoland agrees to not resell/trade/gift Republic to any other team for 10 turns. Legoland also agrees to ensure Glory of War will not trade Republic to any other team for at least 10 turns. 3) To offset the difference in research costs between Currency+Construction and Republic (considering the effective trading potential of the resale rights provided by both teams equal), GS agrees to pay Legoland a balance payment of 80 gold, payable on the same turn as the transfer of Republic happens. We would appreciate if you post this proposal in your private forum for discussion and let us know whether your team is interested in pursuing the deal or not. As the ingame "offer" we made on this very turn (to help you feel more comfortable and safe about the deal), suggests, we are ready to provide "our" technologies any time now. With the sincerest regards, redstar1 of Legoland

And we shall see...

	29-03-2003 13:24									#93
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Message to DeepO sent, also included in the savegame email to Sir Ralph and Nathan Barclay.

	29-03-2003 17:48									#94
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Ahhh.... they seem to respond a bit quicker now...

quote: Thanks Vondrack, I'll post it on our forum (actually, Sir Ralph already did, but I'll make it into an official poll). You discovering Currency first does change the situation a little... we'll have to check how many teams have the two technologies to set a price. Maybe it's good if this deal goes through anyhow, even if not formally ratified. I mean, we can keep discussing details, but right now the important things are getting time-pressed: next turn will be your turn 83, AFAIK... We can settle the price discussion (which I'm quite certain is not resolved on our side yet, 80 gold is a lot in this world, we would happily sell republic to the last one for that price) later. I'm looking forward to our chat tomorrow, but will probably get back to you before that time too. kind regards, DeepO

And my response:

quote: Hello, DeepO! This is a bit off-record... and feel free to check it with other teams, of course... but we are the only team having Construction (just as we are the only team having Currency ATM). I checked the F4 screen to make sure both Currency and Construction were our exclusives before sending our most recent offer to you. And unless our intel is completely wrong, no other team is close to having Construction... most probably none is actually even researching it. I understand the time is of importance, but I fear most of my fellow Legos will prefer having our treaty signed (i.e. the balance in gold settled) before actually exchanging technologies. We seem to like doing things kinda "by the book"... I have recently had a tough time explaining why I went a bit ahead, providing one of our trading partners with something that was not actually 100% backed by a signed treaty yet... it ended well for me, the treaty was ratified ex-post, but the lesson was obvious. Best Regards, vondrack, The President of Legoland

Do we start placing bets?

	29-03-2003 18:48									#95
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This is going well. However, if they don't accept the deal until the chat, I have the following proposal to accelerate the ratification of the treaty:

-------------------

Pre ratification for the GS Republic deal

The Senate of Legoland gives "free hand" to President Vondrack to negotiate and strike a deal with the GS in the following conditions:

The latest draft we sent to the GS is not negotiable, except for point 3), where Legoland accepts to lower the gold payment to 50 gold, payable by the GS not later than 5 turns after the turn when the transfer of Republic happens.

-------------------

1. Anyone: feel free to rephrase it if you have something to add or can write if better
2. As for the last phrase, maybe they just don't have the money now, so why lose the deal because of this.
3. Post your approval for this pre-ratification document, so that we could make the exchange with the GS next turn (should they accept it).

Unless somebody changes it significantly, I approve the above document.

	29-03-2003 20:22									#96
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Guys, rest assured the deal will get through...

More correspondence with Gathering Storm:

quote: Hi Vondrack We just checked if other teams had it (before I saw this message, actually), and you are right, nobody has it. This does change things a little, even if next turn currency will be discovered by ND (their cost just went down, and they have been working on it for quite some time, presumably). I guess this is what redstar1 meant previously that some of my assumptions were wrong, I genuinely thought that you were going to get at least one of the techs from Bob. If you see something that is so obviously wrong, please correct me As to the price: it is currently under discussion. Given this new information, we do not feel it is outrageous (at least not everyone feels that way ), however I think the current feeling is more one of disappointment. We were hoping to reach a more 'friendlier' deal, and were discussing deals with you in which lego-GS deals would be less costly on both sides. But it's easy to forget this is our first real deal, and trust has to be earned, or at least backed up by facts. I'm hopeful it will get accepted without any more negotiating to do. As to waiting before ratifying: no problem whatsoever, I don't think I would have proposed the same if it was our side that needed to make the first step. We're doing our utmost best to ensure ratification before time constraints become an issue. Last comment: you being the only one having construction is actually quite good news, any interest in delaying trading it to Bob? It would be easy for us to keep it from Vox for a few turns, until for instance ND has discovered curr and is looking for a tech to research. Any delay on Bob, or any waste in beakers is welcome, the only problem can be that we delay Vox's MT. See you soon, DeepO

And my answer... hope you don't mind... but as this is perfectly within the limits we have set to ourselves (plus it almost exactly follows what Tibi proposed in the previous post), I believe it will be best to pose as "truly interested" in "striking a deal making all GS members happy" and drop few gold now... After all, we did teach them the lesson we wanted and whatever we'd get over 50 gold would be just a nice bonus, right? So let's play "good uncle Legos" now...

quote: Dear DeepO, I am sorry to hear that some of your members feel disappointed by how things have shaped out... We actually thought Gathering Storm would be happy to know it would be guaranteed to enter medieval ages as the second team in the game, second only to us. It has never been our intention to make a deal you would be unhappy about... we've always been looking for a deal that would make both our teams happy. We truly believed that the deal we originally proposed was a fair one... and it was to our grief it has kept getting further and further from the original idea throughout the last couple of turns, possibly also because we were not sure if our research was fast enough to compensate for the headstart ND had had... and thus did not dare to state some facts clearer. However, if you think some gold or a certain delay set for when the balance payment would be due would make your team happier about the deal and might set an even better basis for our future cooperation, then I believe Legoland will not rigidly oppose slightly adjusting the amount. I'd personally make sure your concerns would be presented in the best possible way in our forum. There would, of course, be a limit we would not feel like crossing, as getting less would lead to our members getting unhappy... but few gold pieces should be worth making your team feel less "cornered" or "under pressure". As for denying Construction to Bobians... I somehow doubt it would have sounded appealing to our team even few turns ago, as we were and genuinely are doing our best to strike fair deals with all other teams in this game... anyway, it is now no longer easily doable, as they already know we have the technologies. Even if it takes 1-2 turns to sign all the deals, we don't believe it would now be possible to keep denying Construction to them without harming our diplomatic relations with Bobians. I do believe that at the end of the day, Gathering Storm and Legoland shall sign a deal that will make both our teams happy and looking forward to future cooperation. With the Best Regards, vondrack, The President of Legoland

Dunno about you, but I am enjoying this tremendously...

	29-03-2003 23:04									#97
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Ahhh, I would gladly pay some bucks now to see the GS's forum!! Somebody must receive some feet in his bottom, for his poor negotiations

	29-03-2003 23:40									#98
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Our communication with GS seem to be fluent today...

quote: Vondrack, Don't read my last message the wrong way, please remember that I'm not a native English speaker, and therefore have fewer expressions to express my, and our feelings. I agree, and it seems the discussion on our board goes the same way, that given this situation, 80 gold is not outlandish, it would normally even be considered a fair price. However, the disappointment comes because it's no 'special' price, while we are seriously considering you as becoming our 'special' friends. But maybe I can explain this better in chat (these 4000 characterr limits on PMs are seriously hampering me ) lowering it a bit would certainly help, but that's not the issue really, we are not in need of cash right now, and lowering it by e.g. 20 gold would be nice, but actually worth less then half a turn of commerce, and thus not really important. Also, there is no problem with giving you the money right away, we will do it as soon as this deal gets ratified. But we were hoping to be able to compensate the difference in a future tech trade, e.g. by lowering the price on MT, instead of needing to do it now. Just as a question of principle really, or as a gesture of good will, because practically it's the same of course, as now we can simply ask for a fair but not that special deal on MT too and everything is solved. We would have liked that special bond between us, though, the sooner the better. As to delaying construction to Bob: I can understand you would want to keep a fair attitude with all civs, however please keep an eye on world politics. Maybe Lego's goal in this game is to simply sail along, keeping everyone away from its continent, keeping everyone friendly, and hoping that the rest will war so much that eventually Legoland comes out on top, however judging from the current situation that won't be possible. You will have to choose sides, and the sooner you do it, the more advantage you can get. Of course, you don't have to believe me, but Bob will become an issue for both of us (Vox doesn't even enter in the equation, they were already in a position where they would lose a 1 on 1 war with any civ, and their latest adventure only has worsened their position). For us, it's quite easy to see why we are a target for Bob, not even counting the threats we get from time to time, but really, you're in exactly the same position only delayed a few turns. I would not be surprised if the moment riders and knights appear, you are being confronted with a multi-civ invasion, especially if GS would show too strong for Bob. Keeping them happy will not work, both ND and GoW are opportunistic in nature (which we are not, or Vox would have been slaughtered already), and will not mind declaring war only turns after they got the last good deal from you. And then there is the issue of RP, who more and more becomes the puppetmaster of Bob, they outright manipulate the other two civs, keeping to their own relative isolation, only defending, and meanwhile building up infrastructure. Both ND and GoW are so focused on their own affairs that they don't even seem to notice it. Given this situation, stalling tech trades would maybe not be the most polite thing to do to Bob, but it will work. Us two isolationists (and builders, because so far our goals have been exactly what you set out to do) will be helped most if we stick together, with Bob a distant second. I admire your straight-forwardness, but I fear you will get cheated on with this attitude. You may think you strike fair deals with nearly all teams, but in reality, some of the teams you had decent trades with, are simply middlemen for the others that didn't want to trade, robbing you of profit. Watch out for Bob, it's all I can say. We only get glimpses of what is going on, but it's nowhere near beautyful. Poll update: so far a 6-1 vote in favor of it, although most Yes's a bit reluctantly. Normally, it should get ratified, but I'll have to wait for a few more votes DeepO

As a gesture of good will, we may waive 10 or 20 gold after they ratify it... or not... their "disappointment" will take another dip once they find out we get Mono from Voxes...

I am not going to respond immediately... I think it is okay to wait for the ratified agreement now.

	30-03-2003 00:17									#99
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Should they have treated us with respect, they would have got a better deal (having to pay probably 50 gold at most and) and a fair and grateful trade partner. I hope they realize this, but blinded by their own feeling of superiority they may not, and are probably blaming us.

Too bad, they seemed to be a good partner. Just like the RPs. I wonder if we can trust anyone in this game, but probably not. Well, maybe the Luxes

	30-03-2003 00:40									#100
	Got spare money?

That being said, DeepO brings up some good points.

ND has been generally hostile to most civs - and has rebuffed all our attempts for trade.

GoW, while friendly enough to us, does appear to be building up cities rapidly (look how fast they colonized Mystery Isle) - and has backstabbed other civs in the past.

RP does seem to like to use diplomatic tricks and are aware that like us (though they don't know it) they need time to settle their large area. In many ways we are already ahead of them in doing that - we just haven't build the temple infrastructure that they have started. They are probably also both counting on using their luxuries hoard and also worrying about keeping their luxuries hoard for the future.

It does also sound like GS is trying to slow down the rate at which we trade techs - whether they want to slow the Bob civs down or us down by that is unclear. But they are right that eventually we will need to choose sides - and our potential treaty with RP may help with that as we don't want to fight an united Bob. If either ND or GoW are stupid enough to be aggressive against us (possible, both are rapidly running out of room), we might be able to pull GS into a coalition against them - and the combination of GS + Lego may
force RP to honour the defensive alliance.

	30-03-2003 18:13									#101
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

And this is the happy-end of our prolonged negotiations with Gathering Storm. Gentlemen, I believe we can be proud of ourselves!

First, a brief PM I sent to DeepO this morning:

quote: Hello, DeepO! Just a quick note to let you know we are sitting on the save now, waiting for your team to decide upon the trade agreement, because - if your ETA on Republic is still Turn 84 - we should be sending you the techs on this very turn. Our 24-hour window will be over today at 9:00pm GMT. We would appreciate if you either send us the ratified agreement by that time, or let us know we are to proceed without sending the techs this turn (in case the ETA on Republic is now later than Turn 84). Best regards, vondrack

And DeepO's response:

quote: Vondrack, Thanks for waiting on us! Sorry if this all takes time, democracies tend to do it... and to be perfect we should have needed another day. But, no time for that now, so yes, we hereby officialy ratify your last proposal, you can go ahead and proceed with sending the techs. Next turn, you should be in possession of the republic, and 80 gold. Let's hope this is just the first in a long series of raitifed proposals See you this evening (I'm leaving now, so for communication in the mean time, contact Zeit or Sir Ralph) in the chat room, 9pm GMT. Cherio, DeepO

Just for our convenience, here is the "last proposal" as sent to DeepO yesterday (Mar 29) at 8:23am GMT:

quote: 1) Legoland agrees to provide Currency & Construction to GS one turn before GS provides Republic to Legoland. Legoland agrees to grant GS rights to resell/trade/gift Currency & Construction to Vox Controli. Legoland also agrees to not attempt to sell/trade/gift Currency or Construction to Vox Controli for 10 turns. GS agrees to not resell/trade/gift Currency & Construction to any other team for 10 turns. GS also agrees to ensure Vox Controli will not trade Currency or Construction to any other team for at least 10 turns. 2) GS agrees to provide Legoland with Republic no later than on (its) Turn 84. GS agrees to grant Legoland rights to resell/trade/gift Republic to Glory of War. GS also agrees to not attempt to sell/trade/gift Republic to Glory of War for 10 turns. Legoland agrees to not resell/trade/gift Republic to any other team for 10 turns. Legoland also agrees to ensure Glory of War will not trade Republic to any other team for at least 10 turns. 3) To offset the difference in research costs between Currency+Construction and Republic (considering the effective trading potential of the resale rights provided by both teams equal), GS agrees to pay Legoland a balance payment of 80 gold, payable on the same turn as the transfer of Republic happens.

	31-03-2003 17:08									#102
	Got spare money?

Ugh... me and redstar1 barely survived the chat with GS yesterday... It was like we were dying from laugh for 80% of the time and being under serious threat of heart attacks for the rest... read the following log for your amusement only, as it contains such a load of total crap, that it would be dangerous to read it otherwise... I will add a couple of my comments at the end.

quote: Session Start: Sun Mar 30 22:15:51 2003 Session Ident: #CoffeeShop DeepO: okay... I propose that normally, I'll answer for GS, and zeit only as support zeit: i'll be away from keyboard for some time, hope to be back in some 15 mins. DeepO: ok vondrack: ok DeepO: we don't want to hammer you from two sides vondrack: I will hammer both of you, if necessary... DeepO: DeepO: so first of all the last deal: DeepO: we're sorry it took so long to get it right DeepO: i hope you are happy with it DeepO: (we more or less are) vondrack: yes, happy - hope you are, too DeepO: a bit of a misunderstanding realy vondrack: how come? DeepO: at first, we polled on the proposal we got from last chat, not realising it was not exactly as you wished for DeepO: hence the confusion vondrack: I see vondrack: the thing with Monotheism, right? DeepO: yep DeepO: we should discuss that one later DeepO: as we should receive it from Vox next turn vondrack: yeah... we thought about a three-sided deal (us, GS, & Voxes), while you preferred two-sided deals - that is ok DeepO: I hope you did not get the wrong impression of us, we are happy do have found a possible tech partner here vondrack: fine, go on DeepO: 3-sided deals are not possible DeepO: certainly not with Vox vondrack: no problem - we are happy to work everything out eventually DeepO: the are a pain in the ass to deal with on a 1 on 1 deal DeepO: the same holds true with other civs DeepO: and quite possibly with us too vondrack: LoL DeepO: too many variables vondrack: exactly DeepO: so, we have spent the past week, thinking on how we could get rid of Vox DeepO: (tech-wise, I mean) DeepO: so we wouldn't be constrained with them anymore DeepO: the results are only so and so DeepO: and we were thinking on getting other teams in DeepO: like eg GoW DeepO: because you're not the only one keeping relatively good communications with them DeepO: but still, the risk is too big DeepO: and we don't think we currently can commit to any 3-sided deal vondrack: understood DeepO: OTOH, we need to avoid Bob gets a 3-pact together DeepO: because otherwise the game will be over DeepO: and that's closer then you might think vondrack: oh? DeepO: I mean the unison of Bob DeepO: Vox is the reason for it, really DeepO: don't spill this to anyone, but don't be surprised if they settle on Bob again very soon, again without previous diplo communications vondrack: why the hell they keep trying? it is futile... * redstar1 has joined #CoffeeShop redstar1: hey DeepO: simply, they know they can't expand North vondrack: hey, redstar! DeepO: hi redstar1! DeepO: hmmm... is there any way to send you a log or so, so we don't have to restate everything? DeepO: not that there has been a lot going on, but still redstar1: don't worry about it redstar1: i'm sort of cooking atm vondrack: I will send the log to redstar later on, no problem redstar1: that would be great DeepO: btw guys, I had troubles with an upset stomach the whole day, don't be surpised if you see my run DeepO: so on to Vox DeepO: they need to expand somewhere DeepO: and if you know the situation, you can't blame them for choosing the least corrupted site vondrack: true DeepO: I really think (personal view here, nothing official) that they are going to bring all immortals they can find DeepO: so that could become interested DeepO: if Bob unites on this, and starts to invade Vox, we have to respond DeepO: or we're dead too DeepO: see the problems rising here? vondrack: tbh, we have very little knowledge about the geography of your landmass, so it may sometimes be difficult to understand motivations for what Voxes do... redstar1: hmmm if i was bob i wouldn't redstar1: not until they have consolidated their own positions DeepO: don't bet on it DeepO: one of the reasons is that one of the Bobians have no iron DeepO: and Vox and weselves have sources close to the coast DeepO: landmass: we have a stretched landmass vondrack: nice peninsulas like on Legos? DeepO: where we have all kinds of terrain (good, but also bad), more or less concentrated DeepO: while Vox has some kind of peninsula, attacked to us by a long, small neck DeepO: so corruption kills them if they expand further vondrack: I see DeepO: you most likely know the city they 'loaned' toLux vondrack: yes, we know the story DeepO: that was already the far boundery of their corruption DeepO: so they know they can't attack us DeepO: even forgetting that they would get their asses whooped DeepO: btw, GoW is going to raze the city, for many reasons they say DeepO: and one reason not public: it's fully corrupted as well DeepO: that city wouldn't help them one bit redstar1: of course it is redstar1: bound to be a nightmare DeepO: true DeepO: sorry guys, need to pause my typing a little DeepO: my paralysed hand is starting to hurt DeepO: so, how do you have experienced GoW, and Bob so far? DeepO: I think you should have been not so closely connected as us DeepO: could be very interesting to compare notes vondrack: tbh, GoW is one of our best trading partners vondrack: GhengisFarb has been very honest and always keeping promises DeepO: GF is cool DeepO: but don't make him upset, his mood swings... vondrack: yeah... experienced that DeepO: what about RP? vondrack: well... DeepO: have they tried to manipulate you too? vondrack: ever talked to Togas personally, DeepO? DeepO: yeah DeepO: I'm also ambassador to them vondrack: it is a lifetime experience, isn't it? ) DeepO: we kind of quit talking a long time ago DeepO: true DeepO: this guy is slick DeepO: very slick DeepO: but in a friendly way vondrack: but to be fair - we had a misunderstanding or two, but we are now just fine with them vondrack: trading a bit, too DeepO: ah, then you're farther then we are DeepO: so you would have no interest in delaying, or even blocking trade to bob? DeepO: because as the 2 best techers of the game, there is a lot of advantage to be gained here vondrack: not really vondrack: the only team that has never shown any real interest in trading with us was ND DeepO: the same here, they only contact you when they need something fast vondrack: yeah... they are weird (ND) DeepO: well.. I can understand their position, they are being hammered by 'poly teams DeepO: so everything becomes an aggresive act vondrack: we offered them a fine deal on Currency... a win-win one... they refused... politely, but refused... dunno what to think about it DeepO: interesting DeepO: the same thing there: we were thinking on offering them to stop research on it DeepO: (only an idea, we would need your ok, of course) DeepO: but that won't do any good, I think DeepO: they won't go for it DeepO: if you want my idea DeepO: they want to keep their options open on Bob vondrack: quite likely, yes DeepO: does RP researches rep right now? vondrack: I would seriously doubt it vondrack: I do not think RP will go for Republic too soon DeepO: ? vondrack: if you check the military advisor screen vondrack: you will find out (perhaps you won't, but we do) vondrack: that they have the largest military in the whole world vondrack: they would probably have tough time paying the upkeep for it DeepO: don't get fooled by the mil advisor DeepO: our army is smallest DeepO: not really DeepO: upkeep is 1 gold per unit DeepO: if you have only 10, verry good units, you have the biggest power, but pay the lowest upkeep DeepO: again, don't get fooled by the mil advisor DeepO: GoW sounds rather weak DeepO: but they have been saving horsies and cash... and riders are close vondrack: hmmm... maybe you are right about the military advisor... DeepO: well, don't believe for a minute we are the weakest around DeepO: but it's good to see that RP is building forces DeepO: because we can't check that... zeit: no one likes to keep is forces idle, maybe they're up to something... DeepO: thei're boundary is all jungle vondrack: my impression is they are getting ready for their neighbours' UUs... DeepO: so to protect, and guard that, they will need swords DeepO: in jungle, a sword can take on a rider easily DeepO: RP is not going to attack a Bobian civ soon DeepO: because they know that the longer they can keep isolated, they will grow stronger DeepO: you might have some decent land to work, but I bet RP has double that land DeepO: so, if RP is going to war, it's going to be either with us two, or with Vox redstar1: you are concerned? DeepO: yes, more or less vondrack: hmmm... they (RPers) have posed very friendly towards us... at least so far DeepO: and they have reasons to believe that GS and Vox will stick together, so Lego is a better target than hoped for redstar1: perhaps DeepO: sure, Togas is always friendly... up until the moment they stab you in the back, look at Lux vondrack: actually, RPers' role in the Lux demise is something we know very little about DeepO: we know that in the near future, we will get embargoed by Bob DeepO: okay, RP -Lux first vondrack: great, thanks DeepO: RP had NAPs with all three civs, as did the other three DeepO: Lux and ND's tension had been building long and there were reasons enough to find zeit: the usual warrior- scout intrusions and the like... DeepO: so, once they knew ND was going to attack Lux, they warned them of their NAP DeepO: and asked ND to postpone their attack one more turn, because then they did not need to attack them DeepO: and they did not want that DeepO: it was the first manipulation trick we knew DeepO: they alone decided when the war started and who was involved DeepO: it even went so far as to push Lux in convincing them that war with ND was going to be impossible to avoid DeepO: so Lux 'took initiative', and declared war themselves DeepO: the list continues on their diplo tricks DeepO: we firmly believe RP is the smartest when it comes to deal with the other teams DeepO: and thus become the most dangerous team in this game zeit: they have succesfuly claimed half of Bob, and helped the others making Vox claim "unfair" zeit: Now that's irony vondrack: half Bob?!? zeit: from the jungle and south- maybe not half, but close to DeepO: more actually vondrack: wow... now I understand why they build up their military vondrack: they have lots of land to defend DeepO: if you believe Aeson's analysis of the map generator, they have more land then above the jungle zeit: more importantly- they managed to secure themselves a decent and quite land, in which they can settle and develop zeit: no settlers running around their borders... vondrack: yeah... like little Voxes DeepO: that's not the problem really DeepO: I mean RPs landsize DeepO: but combine this with their cunning, and you got a winner... DeepO: no, we know the risks here DeepO: and we have goals in this game DeepO: we want to stay alive right until the last minute DeepO: and RP is a risk to us (and to you, as explained above) DeepO: this only gets confirmed with the current tech thing DeepO: where they refuse to trade with us DeepO: so... you can expect more of this in the future DeepO: also when they would be first to research a tech DeepO: and if we're right, they should be a very close 3rd on commerce, right after you DeepO: so, to counter, we should think of ways to offset this vondrack: I am not sure about this (RP economy) DeepO: how so? vondrack: they do not seem to research very fast DeepO: no, but they have been saving cash too zeit: maybe they're not researching... DeepO: and given their isolation, and their land (grass, lots of it, and rivers are abundant too) zeit: you said they're working on swordsmen, right? DeepO: they simply can't be farther behind vondrack: that was DeepO's idea (re: swordsman)... but I find it quite reasonable DeepO: well, as the best in commerce there are tricks to check on the rest of the teams DeepO: which is why we were relatively certain of your economy as well DeepO: and which means I can honestly say that a few turns back, RP was at most 2 gold behind you, as far as we can determine DeepO: i'm not certain on the current situation DeepO: ok, back to how we can counter vondrack: ok DeepO: i mean, we fear that in a few techs time, we will be left out of the loop DeepO: as Bob has 3 civs, which could simultanously research 3 paths DeepO: and 3 paths is the most you can get to in the middle ages DeepO: so, we need to either break that circle of Bobians DeepO: by taking one of them out of the loop DeepO: either by deal, or by war (we are thinking on both options here) vondrack: by war? DeepO: yeah, war DeepO: preemptive, because otherwise we could be toast ourselves DeepO: we're quite happy on our continent, but it's not the easiest to defend DeepO: being thin and all zeit: If done right, the Bobians could be broken apart DeepO: yes DeepO: so they can't get a monopoly anymore DeepO: but we could DeepO: but, of course, this will not work with GS alone DeepO: and Vox really has nothing to do with it DeepO: we need Legoland in some way... DeepO: we think it is in the best interest of you guys too vondrack: yeah, we count on our future cooperation, of course DeepO: but maybe you find it diffirently DeepO: of course DeepO: but given the opinion on our board, that is a given DeepO: GS is ready to enter a long term alliance, at least for techs, with Lego DeepO: but we think that later on, it should also provide options to block the progress on Bob vondrack: I do not see any obstacles to such a long term tech alliance DeepO: or it won't mean anything... DeepO: that's already nice to hear, but how far would you be willing to go? vondrack: even though at least for the nearest future, we would be sort of cautious to tick Bobians (RPers, to be honest) off vondrack: they are very close to us DeepO: very true DeepO: I see vondrack: and we are not fully developed military-wise DeepO: so the risk is even greater then thought vondrack: so, while we are all for trading with you, we would probably hesitate a lot about embargoing Bobians vondrack: at least until we feel safe here DeepO: well, right now it's not really an option DeepO: we can't piss them off DeepO: how long would you need to feel safe? DeepO: I mean a rough guess, of course DeepO: because the longer we wait, the bigger the risk vondrack: 25-30 turns? vondrack: we were lacking certain key techs for a long time vondrack: it is rather difficult to tell... DeepO: okay DeepO: let's say we need about 15 turns to feel perfectly safe here DeepO: depending on when we get to knights, of course DeepO: well, I wouldn't propose to start embargoing now DeepO: but it really has to be an option DeepO: if we want to enter a long term deal zeit: but limiting the trades, perhaps vondrack: hmmm... perhaps "offering worse deals"? vondrack: yes zeit: putting NDA's on every deal with Bob DeepO: limiting: not really, delaying by 1 or 2 turns could already help DeepO: vondrack, one of the things that both teams are going to need to accept, is that sometimes short term gain is not that good when compared with long term gain DeepO: if this means that we sometimes have to refuse income on a tech by selling it, so be it vondrack: agreed

	31-03-2003 17:28									#103
	Suffering from ads?

quote: DeepO: we were thinking on structures to compensate this, to divide the 'loss' between our two teams DeepO: but it all depends on how far we can get here DeepO: offering NDAs on all tech deals to the rest of the world might be the first thing to decide DeepO: if we both agree on a 10 turn NDA for any tech we are going to distribute in the future, we're one step farther DeepO: (not between ourselves, of course) vondrack: like not allowing them to trade the techs to third parties? DeepO: yep, that's the idea vondrack: that sounds reasonable DeepO: that way, we can at least prevent being ripped off on techs DeepO: so that who we sell to, just splits the price with their partner DeepO: there is one problem with this: we are going to need to expect NDAs on their techs too DeepO: which is one of the reasons we couldn't really offer it to Vox on the techs we just sent them DeepO: (we'll ask for it, though, but we can't demand) DeepO: because otherwise, MT has to be bought from Vox DeepO: and their price would be higher vondrack: I see... DeepO: yeah, I know it's not ideal zeit: The arrangement from Vox will be changed in the future, though DeepO: Vox really is a diplo headache to us DeepO: very soon, I hope zeit: Hopefully they won't be around alot longer... DeepO: no, but that is another problem to us DeepO: because we don't really need Bobians on our continent vondrack: do you think Bobians have means to follow Voxes to your landmass? DeepO: yes they have DeepO: if they stick together DeepO: that's the whole clue, basically DeepO: Bob and our continent are so close, that if you build a port close enough, you can ferry 4 units with one galley, each turn DeepO: which is why the Vox city was so strategically important DeepO: and 4 riders... ouch vondrack: the same would apply for us vondrack: fortunately, we are a bit further overseas ) DeepO: ouch again DeepO: better adequately defend that part of your world vondrack: yeah, we know... that's what we need those 25-30 turns for DeepO: okay, but in 25 turns, Vox might have disappeared from this game DeepO: we could certainly take them out, defending our own territory, in that time span DeepO: we have been building iinfrastructure, as said, and it starts to pay off DeepO: but you're not doing that bad either... about 9 cities yourself, right? vondrack: just a sec, I will check vondrack: only 8 zeit: close enough, DeepO DeepO: aha, could also be so... we're a bit farther ahead DeepO: (not much, but blame that on disease) DeepO: so our production can match anyone... DeepO: btw, RP has about the same numbers DeepO: ND and GoW are around 7 cities (a little less, maybe) DeepO: Vox has 5, AFAIK redstar1: where'd you get the intel? DeepO: analysis DeepO: but it's good to check DeepO: I was pretty sure on your 8 cities vondrack: aha... something we are not that good in, apparently DeepO: but had to say one more, so you wouldn't get offended DeepO: bah, some things GS is superb in, others not so DeepO: I'm not so economical as eg nbarclay, or Aeson DeepO: and war is purely a Theseus / Arrian thing DeepO: but these guys have not been around a lot DeepO: nothing to do vondrack: all the Strat Forum regulars, I know... DeepO: DeepO: which is our problem DeepO: nobody wants to fully trade with us DeepO: thinking we'll backstab, perhaps... DeepO: which is absolutely not needed, and no intention of ours redstar1: are you saying we shouldn't be trading with you? DeepO: not at all redstar1: j/k DeepO: but know that we have some kind of stigma we carry redstar1: not a problem redstar1: i forsee a bright future for us vondrack: hmmm, I would think just the opposite - for such people, it would be nothing to be proud of if all they'd do would be a nice backstab... vondrack: but I may be wrong, of course... ) DeepO: so if word would leak out that we are getting very close, the willingness of others to deal with you might drop DeepO: well, backstabbing is not an option, really DeepO: we agreed to be the most honorable team on the game, and we will do exactly that DeepO: if it means we won't win, no problem whatsoever DeepO: at least we had good fun vondrack: DeepO: so techs: vondrack: ok DeepO: i suggest we let this simmer a bit DeepO: so both teams can think on what they want to accomplish DeepO: and what they would agree to give up with DeepO: on our side, one thing is certain, we will drop Vox in the future vondrack: that is a good idea, I agree vondrack: re: simmering vondrack: perhaps re: Voxes, too ) DeepO: if keeping Vox around is going to hamper us with Lego DeepO: DeepO: but, we've got the first steps to take DeepO: coordinating our research zeit: coordinating deals with Bob, perhaps DeepO: first of all, we see reachin knights as 1st prioirity DeepO: i don't know where you stand on this DeepO: we are set to start on feudalism vondrack: hmm... I hope we will complement you nicely DeepO: ok vondrack: we do not really look towards Feu, as we have our Mercs DeepO: true redstar1: we see atomic weapons as priority vondrack: so Feu alone is not worth the research for us DeepO: but we first of all need it for knights, not feudalism DeepO: we are not going to defend with pikes, if we can attack with knights vondrack: Chivalry... oh, that will be something different vondrack: Feudalism would really be choice #3 for us vondrack: so if you are determined to go for it DeepO: which is #2? DeepO: I know #1 vondrack: then you may rest assured we will make a good deal in the future DeepO: okay, no problem DeepO: we should complement... DeepO: I take it you wouldn need MT first? vondrack: yes DeepO: you are going to get in anarchy, next turn, no? DeepO: so that shuld mean that we can see which tech Vox gives us DeepO: and if it's different from MT, get you working on MT DeepO: while we get feud vondrack: nope, I do not think so... we have several builds under way, which we would like to finish first vondrack: units, to be exact DeepO: maybe it would be best if, in case we don't get MT from Vox, we research it DeepO: ah, okay DeepO: any eta? vondrack: not yet DeepO: no matter vondrack: it will probably take a couple of turns DeepO: ok DeepO: what are you researching now? DeepO: if I may ask vondrack: hmmm... dunno if it is not supposed to be secret... hell, doesn't matter... nothing, actually DeepO: that's best vondrack: we need some cash for upgrades DeepO: I was going to suggest that DeepO: okay, no prob DeepO: you should receive 80 gold next turn vondrack: vondrack: yes, thank you! DeepO: so, let's say you will stay on cash, until we know what Vox gives at least vondrack: yes, that is quite likely DeepO: if they don't give MT, we start on that vondrack: you = GS? vondrack: or us? DeepO: simply because we have the best research, and MT is the most expensive vondrack: yeah, I see DeepO: you=lego DeepO: if they give MT, we will go on with feu DeepO: and you can research #3 (forgot which) DeepO: or even theology, perhaps DeepO: this should take both of us to knights asap vondrack: yes, those are fine options DeepO: maybe one problem: if you're not interested in feu, I take it that wonder build you‘re going for is not supposed to be a prebuild for Sun Tsu? vondrack: nope DeepO: we kind of thought that would have been a good option for you DeepO: but happiness would perhaps be fine too vondrack: Sun Tsu? DeepO: yeah DeepO: no barracks to pay upkeep for vondrack: we are more concerned about happiness vondrack: we got screwed on luxuries DeepO: ah, ok vondrack: and we kind a fear that Bobians will simply embargo us on them DeepO: of course, we would like to start trading those asap DeepO: yeah, i was going to mention that DeepO: we don't have many sorts (2) vondrack: us only 1 DeepO: actually, 1 at the moment, but we should be able to get 2 vondrack: Dyes, to be precise DeepO: furs here DeepO: incent later... DeepO: are you considering getting monarchy somewhere? vondrack: not really DeepO: we have been asking around, but nobody is interested... vondrack: not viable for us DeepO: only for the HG, of course DeepO: because there is no WW in MP vondrack: yes DeepO: well, I'm not sure if I can offer you anything specific on MT right now vondrack: I understand that DeepO: so would it be an option for you, if we simply promise to send it immediately vondrack: we went ahead with our deal, full aware of that MT would be negotiated later DeepO: and discuss price in the coming few days? vondrack: I would rather have the price set in advance, if you do not mind vondrack: as we have seen with our previous deal, it is sometimes easy to misunderstand the extend which the other party aims for DeepO: I was proposing to make this one a gold trade too, simply because it would be easier from then on DeepO: okay DeepO: in that case, I was thinking (personally), to set it below half of the current beaker cost DeepO: meaning if you're the 3rd to get it, we offer you less then half that price. vondrack: hmmm.... I will keep that it mind DeepO: but we'll need to discuss things with Vox here first vondrack: understood DeepO: well... the problem is of course, that if possible, we will offer it to Bob too DeepO: in which case, your price will drop considerably vondrack: sure, we expect that vondrack: I mean: we expect you would offer it to Bobians ) DeepO: but really, there is too few to say about that, I will get back to you in PM vondrack: ok, thanks DeepO: well, we don't know if we're allowed to DeepO: because if Vox is thinking on resettling Bob, they have to keep something behind to pay for the use of land vondrack: that's true DeepO: so that is going to be a tricky situation vondrack: but I doubt their tech would be enough vondrack: Bobians are very touchy when it comes to their landmass DeepO: true DeepO: okay, further, I promise I will try to more precisly set out some rough document, detailing our plans for future coop vondrack: ok, good idea DeepO: but I wonder how much of this is simply RP pulling strings on the puppets DeepO: yeah, it's good to see you share some of our concerns DeepO: and that military threat is also well-known to you vondrack: yes, it is DeepO: I take it you are first of all interested in defending, not attacking? DeepO: or do you feel the urge for new land soon too? vondrack: of course - we are "builders" by definition ) vondrack: so we build vondrack: not wage war, unless inevitable DeepO: well, we have been builders, but were this is going to lead, I don't know vondrack: we are currently in no shape to try hopping overseas DeepO: and as said before, perhaps the only way of stopping Bob is going to be military vondrack: especially since the closest neighbour is RPers with their huge military DeepO: well... a lot can change in a few turns vondrack: that's true, of course DeepO: let's see what those riders are going to do to Bob first DeepO: that could become very interesting vondrack: agreed DeepO: if it means GoW would be gone, we simply need to expand onto Bob DeepO: but I don't think we'll mind that hard, our territory is almost fully build vondrack: to prevent ND & RPers from becoming even stronger? DeepO: yes DeepO: ND especially DeepO: that's one good team, playing there DeepO: they have every reason to be so cocky in their negotiations DeepO: (and no, it's not a language thing) DeepO: so, I'll get back to you on plans for deals vondrack: ok vondrack: thanks a lot DeepO: I suggest you do the same, and we compare notes next chat vondrack: will do vondrack: next Sunday, 9pm GMT? DeepO: and in the mean time, we will get you updated on the tech situation DeepO: and come up with a deal on MT DeepO: yeah, 9pm would be superb DeepO: vondrack: great DeepO: do you have anything further to ask vondrack: I believe that you have told me so much that I will need some time to mull it over vondrack: thanks for everything DeepO: that's okay DeepO: I hope it has been informative vondrack: yes, it was DeepO: never be afraid to ask vondrack: I appreciate that DeepO: as you can see, i've got lots of opinions to share vondrack: well, then, both of you: take care & good luck! Session Close: Sun Mar 30 23:56:32 2003

So, my comments:

either:
1) GS are so cocky and self-assured that they do not even consider the possibility of being wrong about this or that... which leads to them being wrong about just about everything - just read the log and you will be stunned by how many things they have no clue about or assume totally wrong - RPers being a superpower having "twice as much land as Lego" (while we know they are seriously losing breath because of poor city placement, overstretching, and overgrown military... while having less land than we do), number of GoW & ND cities (just have a look at our minimap)... it is just plain unbelievable.

or:
2) they are playing some devious game with us, pretending they are complete idiots... if that's the case, I am really curious what they are after (but I give this option 0.001% chance)

plus:
3) they did not even think of that we could have made our own deal with Voxes... I am really curious what they are going to do once they realize they are not going to sell us Monotheism for an all time low price of about 400 gold...

4) let's be very wary of close ties to this team... they are both "blind" (thus dangerous) and "greedy" (thus hardly to bring truly fine deals). Plus, I personally hate when someone treats me like I was an idiot... which is exactly what DeepO does (most probably unconsciously, though... being a victim of the generel GS feeling of superiority).

Oh, well...

	31-03-2003 17:36									#104
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Considering how successfully we secured Monotheism from Voxes, it may be a good idea to let GS know... they will find out anyway, so why pretend we are attempting to fool them?

Something short and sweet... anyone having an idea and time to put a brief diplo memo together? Just tell them to enjoy their Monotheism and that we are now researching Theology and that we hope to be able to trade it with them later on. No need to tell them where we got Mono from... even though they will figure it out anyway.

	31-03-2003 17:55									#105
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Oh, and one more thing... have you noticed how little ratified treaties mean to GS? DeepO expressly admitted GS did not include a no-resell clause in their deal with Voxes, which is a flagrant breach of the trade agreement they made with us:

quote: Legoland - GS: Currency+Construction for Republic Trade Agreement of 950BC 1) Legoland agrees to provide Currency & Construction to GS one turn before GS provides Republic to Legoland. Legoland agrees to grant GS rights to resell/trade/gift Currency & Construction to Vox Controli. Legoland also agrees to not attempt to sell/trade/gift Currency or Construction to Vox Controli for 10 turns. GS agrees to not resell/trade/gift Currency & Construction to any other team for 10 turns. GS also agrees to ensure Vox Controli will not trade Currency or Construction to any other team for at least 10 turns.

	31-03-2003 21:35									#106
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Just a note to DeepO regarding the recent trades


DeepO,

Seems our trades went to plan, great stuff! Nice doing business with you. Hope we can deal a lot more in the future. Not sure there is anything urgent to discuss so unless you can think of anything then I guess the sunday night chat is the best time to catch up.

Oh, we got a good deal on Mono from another source so no need to worry ourselves on that one!

Regards

Redstar1

	01-04-2003 14:09									#107
	Got spare money?

i made a mistake and sent the message above, rather than the amended one....no harm done though..

quote: RE: Greetings, trade buddies! Hi redstar1, Nice to know there were no problems, let's hope this trend continues As to Monotheism: from one side I'm happy, as it will make deals probably easier to strike. OTOH, though, it would have been nice if you mentioned this in chat, just between friends. It would have made us focus more on striking a deal right then (if this was your intention, of course). But it's okay, the sooner you get it, the better. See you next Sunday (possibly before then too ) DeepO

	05-04-2003 20:44									#108
	Increase Your PM Length

Msg from DeepO

quote: Feudalism proposal Dear redstar1, vondrack, and quantum_mechani, I was going to mention this in chat tomorrow, but it may be better to offer this now, so you can discuss this proposal amongst yourselves first. Debate tomorrow will only get more focussed We're currently, as agreed, on our way towards Feudalism. However, it seems the rest of the world, including you, is not really up to speed yet, too many issues need attention, and research is nobody's priority, it seems. We understand that defense can be more important, however as we're not so pressed, maybe we can speed up things a little on the research side of things. There has been a bit of talk on offering feudalism to everybody in the world at the same time, and quite soon too. Maybe we can after that fit in another tech, and end at about the same moment other teams get the tech they are currently going for. In your case, it would seem best to us that we deal with this tech separately from another one: by the time you get Theology, we would have, or be very close to discovering Chivalry. So, our proposal: We offer you Feudalism for 200 gold, or a 12 gpt 'loan' for 20 turns. It comes with an NDA, in that you are not allowed to trade it to any other team for 10 turns after receiving it. Further, we will guarantee that at the moment of offering, we will be the only team with access to the technology, and nobody else will be able to research it independently, and thus sell it to you, for at least 5 more turns. I hope you like these terms, they are quite fair in our eyes. We can discuss other options of payment, but the price will be fixed, it could however be transformed in other tradeable stuff Re: long term tech deal: I've got quite a few ideas on that, but haven't found any time this week to put them on paper. I would be thrilled to discuss them, and see your view on it. But let's keep it for the chat And one point of advice: don't stay in despotism too long, the sooner you get to republic, the better. Settlers and other units can be rushed easily with the extra cash it generates, if that is your concern. DeepO

	05-04-2003 23:36									#109
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hmmm... aside from how much I hate when someone fatherly "advices" us in this way (plus says "there will be no bargaining"), I certainly see no need to rush this deal...

We have absolutely no need for Feudalism alone, as it gives us nothing we would need - Mercs are better than Pikemen anyway and we do not intend to build Sun Tzu's. What we will want is Chivalry... so I would wait and see how things develop... we may easily be able to get Feudalism from someone else, after the 10 turn no-whore period is over...

I say: no hurry.

	06-04-2003 00:13									#110
	Got spare money?

Hmm, sounds to me like they are trying to act like the "top dog" in our relationship. Well, I agree with Vondrack, let's see what other offers are out there for Feudalism (almost certain GoW is researching it), and I agree Chivalry is more a priority.

As for them researching both Feudalism and Chivalry before we get Theology, I frankly doubt it as we are 18 turns from it - even if we had the max 8 turns of anarchy I still wonder whether they can research each tech in 14 or so turns (28 total).

	06-04-2003 05:13									#111
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree, wait.

And I also doubt they'll be able to research both before us. If they're borging as I think they are, they probably do have some more base commerce, but their shrinking culture shows that they're library-less, and we'll be building two soon. We could be well on the way to our next tech by the time they complete Chivalry.

	06-04-2003 10:49									#112
	Put an end to popups!

I don't like the tone of the message, at all. Does DeepO really think his team is that superior. Does he really think that we don't know Republic is better than Depotism? Does he really think that his team is the only team that will have Feudalism; that we have no choice, but to accept is great offer.

This guy (and probably the whole team) is so full of himself. Let's not accept this trade at all.

	07-04-2003 05:03									#113
	Support Apolyton

And the regular Sunday chat with GS (I missed this one - posting the log Nimitz made):

quote: Session Start: Sun Apr 06 15:42:07 2003 Session Ident: #milkshake * Now talking in #milkshake * Topic is 'Lego - GS chat' * Set by DeepO on Sun Apr 06 15:09:35 DeepO: hi! redstar1: hey nimitz Nimitz: hello DeepO: quick recap redstar1: i have to go afk but i'll keep a lookout and a log: Nimitz: ok DeepO: okay DeepO: so, recap DeepO: I was asking on the deal we send you DeepO: on feud DeepO: and mentioning that the way we get paid is not an issue to us Nimitz: just a sec got a PM to check DeepO: so, if you would rather have a combined chivalry + feud - theo + gold deal, np DeepO: okay DeepO: I'll type a little DeepO: the thing is, we too are at crossroads in the game DeepO: we have a great opportunity here, but we are uncertain we want to do it, and we can't do it alone DeepO: atm, our research is huge, compared to the other teams DeepO: and once rep will come, this will change DeepO: but because Bob will get into a war pretty soon, most likely the moment they get knights DeepO: research will practically halt on their side DeepO: so, we can either stop ourselves, as we also need money (and you too) DeepO: or, we can research at full speed, and let the others pay for our tech slider DeepO: in this last case, we need a partner: Lego DeepO: again, this is only a wild idea, and no proposal, but I just want to let you know one of the possibilities in this game DeepO: and want to hear your ideas on it DeepO: also, it isn't very urgent DeepO: next few techs are not that important DeepO: buut we are trying the idea out on Feud DeepO: in that, we want everyone of the world to pay for a tech, that we are the only ones investing beakers in DeepO: there are a lot of ways in which this can go wrong DeepO: but in general, if we can make other teams (read Bob) dependent on us, we would be relatively safe DeepO: and in a good position to win this game DeepO: (There are other options of winning the game, some of which are also being discussed on our boards right now) DeepO: okay. that's enough text for the moment, let's hear your opinions Nimitz: yes DeepO: yes? * DeepO sets mode: +o Nimitz Nimitz: well we are worried about the the other team they might turn on us if we started to run the reseach DeepO: true DeepO: which is also a concern DeepO: buut if we would be fair, and poowerful DeepO: we might be able to make it something of an advantage for them too DeepO: in that they don't need to worry about research, they get it for a cheap price DeepO: (btw, don't mind my type style, today is a double-vowel day, it seems ) Nimitz: they don't care they would fear use just for the fact we can turn off the spicket DeepO: spicket? DeepO: sorry, don't understand Nimitz: fauset DeepO: nm, I think I can get the idea (fauset?) DeepO: well, maybe DeepO: but it depends on other fctors DeepO: right now, they can't really invade us DeepO: and I don't think Lego is at particular risk either DeepO: so, the moment you can claim your territory coast to coast, and have a decent defense force, they will think twice DeepO: in our case, this moment will come relatively early DeepO: and I thought you needed about 20 turns from now on to get there Nimitz: not sure myself DeepO: well, anyway, it's always a case of portaying to be ready, more then being ready DeepO: which is why, from time to time, we mention Theseus and Arrian in dipllo conversation, it keeps us safe DeepO: all this can only start the moment war breaks out at Bob Nimitz: yes DeepO: and this will be soon DeepO: as either Vox wil create some trouble very soon DeepO: or we simply need to wait for riders DeepO: we have a reasonable assurance from teams that that moment will get decisive Nimitz: how far are you from Feu. DeepO: we hope GoW wins... DeepO: well, it depends DeepO: right now, I thought we had 8 turns left, if we don't want to lose any cash in the progress DeepO: (could be 6 in the mean time, I'm a few turns behind on info) DeepO: but, there were more then one voice asking to speed it up DeepO: if we can get (part of) the cost of this elsewhere DeepO: If we would really go for it, we should finish in 4 turns or so DeepO: ... yes republic does marvelous things to your commerce Nimitz: when you have libaries DeepO: libraries are another discussion DeepO: another option would be to go slower on this DeepO: and use the saved cash to do mass infrastructure rushing DeepO: another idea we were thinking on DeepO: but in this case, the difference between us, and the other team that is researching Feud would diminish DeepO: and probably mean that they will research it independently DeepO: we can't have that, or our scheme stops working Nimitz: well GoW is after it DeepO: so.. basically... we're at crossroads, and not sure how to proceed DeepO: GoW: we know DeepO: but I couldn't tell you that, as they told us in private DeepO: so it had to come from you first... DeepO: (yeah, stupid honor rule we want to keep ) DeepO: so, maybe it's good to hear more from Lego, to see if they would like such a scheme DeepO: because it's obvious we can't do this alone DeepO: we need some kind of tech-partner, to split the costs, and the gains DeepO: I fully understand this does not get decided in a week time DeepO: so, maybe it's best to build our relation up DeepO: and go one step at the time DeepO: (also, changing situations in the world can be reacted too) DeepO: so... first deal first Nimitz: yes we know about trade taking time DeepO: would you be interested in either getting feud for gold from us DeepO: or as part of a 2 tech deal? Nimitz: most likely a deal down the rode like two tech one DeepO: you want to wait? DeepO: or did I read that incorrectly Nimitz: yes say like 5 turns for us to make a deal for Fue and Chivalry DeepO: np DeepO: some ideas we wer thinking on: DeepO: 1. we give you feud + knight, you give theo + gold compensation ( a fair one, of course). Seeing as we will deliver feud a lot sooner, maybe it would be best to deicde on the compensation first, and trade that to feud, later on doing a straight theo-chivalry exchange DeepO: 2. We handle feud like we do with all teams, compensating later in a separate deal DeepO: 3. we wait on feud, and exchange it once theo is ready (by which time, we should have chivalry). Problem here is, that we want to avoid that you get the opportunity to buy it at a lower price from someone who we sold it to, at a time our NDA would have expired. Wouldn't be very fair to us DeepO: 4. Any other things you might want to come up with DeepO: we have at least 4 turns to decide, but some kind of principal agreement on which path to follow would be nice to have DeepO: alleviates stress DeepO: I think Nimitz: ok let me let me take this back to the team and I'll have general answer by tomorrow DeepO: tomorrow would be superb, really, there is no problem if you wait 2 days Nimitz: ok DeepO: as to the rest: would it be too much to ask if you have a rough eta on theo yet? DeepO: and have you had any conversations with other teams, trying to find out if some are going for it too? Nimitz: 20 turns at the latest DeepO: okay. we should have chivalry by then at any rate DeepO: so that's good to hear... also not too late for others to be first in getting it Nimitz: no talks yet. Nimitz: well gtg bye DeepO: planning on? DeepO: bye, see you next sunday Nimitz: not that I know of Nimitz: bye Session Close: Sun Apr 06 16:21:22 2003

	07-04-2003 11:22									#114
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Nothing new here. All we have to do now is delaying deals with GS.

Btw, Nimitz, we never wanted to make a feud + chivalry for theology + gold deal, like you suggested to DeepO. You should read the Enlightened thread before chatting and offering deals. Feud is not a priority, so we can wait GoW to research it and exchange it for Theo. for Feud + money and then exchanbe Theo for Chiv + money with the GS.

So, for an answer to GS: we will trade for Feud and Chiv only they will be available, we are not interested in prearraged deals on them. Feudalism is not a piority for us so we are waiting for Theo (or chivalry, whichever will be first on the market) and not trading in the meantime.

	08-04-2003 01:19									#115
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Yes, I know it was to stall them.

	12-04-2003 01:17									#116
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Message from DeepO:

quote: Nimitz, quantum_mechani, redstar1, vondrack, (I was unsure who to send it to, so I just picked all) You can imagine that the times are rather hectic, lately, so my apologies for not getting in touch sooner. But I wanted to give you an update... Feudalism should be ours in normally 2, at most 3 turns. At which time we'll offer it to the world (well, not Vox, naturally). We have been discussing to delay it, using the time for upgrade and rush money, but it won't be needed. The Voxians have given us an opportunity to get to our GA before their main force is even in sight, money isn't really a problem any more. I know you were still discussing it, but have you reached any conclusion in-team on our last proposal (200 gold or 12 gpt, plus 10 turn NDA)? We are certain no other team is going to be able to provide it before our NDAs run out, as nobody besides us is currently researching the tech. Further, a bit of update on the war with Vox: currently, all action is limited to a couple of border skirmishes. They took us a little by surprise, we were looking towards their territory as one of the options for future expansion, but not so soon. So, we were not fully prepared, however we can react very quickly. The first few turns of the war may get tense, we might lose 1 or 2 cities at most depending on what Vox will launch at us, but there is no way they are going to keep up with our production, in our GA we're probably over 3 times as productive as them. It most likely was a Live or Die choice for Vox, we can see their cities now (they have sold us their map, accepting the gold in the same turn as killing Grog), and half of them have been pop-rushed to size 1. Also, but you probably now this already, they never launched an attack towards Bob, that was a ruse. They tricked us though Other insights in the current situation: RP is up to it again. Be aware of Togas, he is using every dirty trick he knows to take advantage of the situation. RP has asked us whether we want to help take care of Legoland, as Legoland would be the biggest competitor on their huge territory if left alone. The same moment, they were asking GoW to get a trade embargo against us, and are sponsoring Vox with cash to attack us, hoping to prune us. Luckily for us, GoW is starting to see their evil machinations, maybe we can isolate RP a little. Vox won't be around long enough to be influenced by Togas' 'requests' or 'unofficial communications' either Togas should take a signature of "divide and Conquer", at least the first part of that is working splendidly. See you next Sunday, DeepO

For the very first time, I find something DeepO says to be quite correct and believable (yes, it is the part about RPers ...but on a serious note, my patience with the RPers is over, I am considering them our enemy from now on - even though I'm not going to let them know).

I guess it is time to think up some nice story... we now need to tell GS we are not ready to make any deals for Feudalism at the moment. Here is a couple of ideas:

1) we may indirectly indicate we bought the map from Voxes, too. Something like "unfortunately, we spent quite a lot of money on a deal with Voxes recently... details are supposed to be kept secret... but we considered it to be important, giving us a strategic advantage, so we spent the money eventually... all we can say is it was probably something very similar to the deal you made with them" - GS would think we're talking about a map deal, while we'd actually be talking about the Monotheism deal.

2) we may indirectly indicate we lost money to barbs. Something like "when the world went medieval, we had quite some troubles with barbarian uprisings... there were... well, how to say it... some unplanned for "money transfers" between us and them" - they'd think barbs sacked our city, while we would actually be talking about delayed Logville foundation and getting money from barb camps...

3) we may mention we lost the C+C deal with RPers quite unexpectedly, perhaps even saying we lost the deal because RPers got C+C from a source that was obviously illegal... despite being informed we were the only "legal" one - considering what GS think of Togas, they will trust us and understand (plus, we would not be lying at all). We can even go as far as to "honestly" tell them that we made much less out of the C+C combo than we had hoped for, being able to trade it to two teams only... as opposed to four we were hoping for... this is again 100% true.

4) we should mention we are researching at full speed (thus, saving no gold) to get a bit ahead of the rest of the world in "our" branch of the techtree, saving a couple of turns for the government switch - this is again true, just told in a way that would most probably mislead GS to believe we are low on cash.

5) we should tell them we are "unfortunately not able to make any tech for cash deals at the moment, thus asking to postpone arranging the deal at least until we finish researching Theology and switch to Republic - as that will significantly improve our cash flow and gold reserves". Perhaps repeating Feudalism alone is of little interest to us (due to the awesome Mercs) and that it is Chivalry what we are really looking for.

6) we should mention "being happy that GS is not having troubles with funding their war with Voxes, as we would be unable to assist them in this way ATM" (yes, it's the GS cockiness again... if "money isn't really a problem any more", then let them help themselves... let them shoot themselves in the foot again... )

Any other ideas?

I guess we should put together a response within 24 hours, to raise no suspicion. I am going to acknowledge the receipt of the PM right now, promising to respond within 24 hours.

	12-04-2003 01:40									#117
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I would just blame the lack of gold on an internal issue, such as barbarian problems. They could not refute that in any way. The other delay tactics come with strings attached.

	12-04-2003 01:54									#118
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quote: Originally posted by lmtoops I would just blame the lack of gold on an internal issue, such as barbarian problems. They could not refute that in any way. The other delay tactics come with strings attached.

You mean to drop any direct references to making a deal in the future (i.e. scrapping #5 in my post)? That may be a good idea, yes... what do you think about #1-#4?

	12-04-2003 02:12									#119
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I would go with a combo of full speed research and some barb losses. Both of these cannot be corraborated with other teams, thus making them "safe" stories. Plus, knowing them, as soon as they hear that we lost money to barbs, they'll just start thinking how incompetant we are, which means they'll underestimate us, which is always a good thing

As for the rest, geez, I just don't trust anybody anymore! Now I'm seeing conspiracies everywhere.. what if GoW turns around and takes out Vox in a twisted backstabbing!?

But what he says about RP is very believable, especially given their lust for our map. I say we cut no more deals with RP, period, but just keep baiting them along. Work with GoW, work with Vox, and trust no one at all.

	12-04-2003 02:15									#120
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack For the very first time, I find something DeepO says to be quite correct and believable (yes, it is the part about RPers ...but on a serious note, my patience with the RPers is over, I am considering them our enemy from now on - even though I'm not going to let them know).

I agree, it seems they don't even want an inferior partner in us.

quote: I guess it is time to think up some nice story... we now need to tell GS we are not ready to make any deals for Feudalism at the moment. Here is a couple of ideas: 1) we may indirectly indicate we bought the map from Voxes, too. Something like "unfortunately, we spent quite a lot of money on a deal with Voxes recently... details are supposed to be kept secret... but we considered it to be important, giving us a strategic advantage, so we spent the money eventually... all we can say is it was probably something very similar to the deal you made with them" - GS would think we're talking about a map deal, while we'd actually be talking about the Monotheism deal.

I'd strike out the last part of that ("all we can say is it was probably something very similar to the deal you made with them"); it comes too close to lying.

Edit: Thinking over it more, let's leave out this excuse entirely. We want to keep our recent heavy dealings with Vox a secret for now, in case the war backfires and Vox is eliminated or heavily downsized out of the game. We also don't want to come up with too many excuses, or GS may see we're doing just that.

quote: 2) we may indirectly indicate we lost money to barbs. Something like "when the world went medieval, we had quite some troubles with barbarian uprisings... there were... well, how to say it... some unplanned for "money transfers" between us and them" - they'd think barbs sacked our city, while we would actually be talking about delayed Logville foundation and getting money from barb camps...

Also comes too close to lying for my taste. Just say at the end that there were "some unplanned for consequences."

quote: 3) we may mention we lost the C+C deal with RPers quite unexpectedly, perhaps even saying we lost the deal because RPers got C+C from a source that was obviously illegal... despite being informed we were the only "legal" one - considering what GS think of Togas, they will trust us and understand (plus, we would not be lying at all). We can even go as far as to "honestly" tell them that we made much less out of the C+C combo than we had hoped for, being able to trade it to two teams only... as opposed to four we were hoping for... this is again 100% true.

Sounds good. This will also hint to them they are in ill favor after their failing to get a NDA w/ Voxes, but that's okay with me.

quote: 4) we should mention we are researching at full speed (thus, saving no gold) to get a bit ahead of the rest of the world in "our" branch of the techtree, saving a couple of turns for the government switch - this is again true, just told in a way that would most probably mislead GS to believe we are low on cash.

Not really sure what the bolded part would convince them of, and it would give out more information; I'd take it out. Otherwise

quote: 5) we should tell them we are "unfortunately not able to make any tech for cash deals at the moment, thus asking to postpone arranging the deal at least until we finish researching Theology and switch to Republic - as that will significantly improve our cash flow and gold reserves". Perhaps repeating Feudalism alone is of little interest to us (due to the awesome Mercs) and that it is Chivalry what we are really looking for.

The "Feudalism isn't important to us" line should be our mainstay in stalling any negotiations; I agree with lmtoops on this.

quote: 6) we should mention "being happy that GS is not having troubles with funding their war with Voxes, as we would be unable to assist them in this way ATM" (yes, it's the GS cockiness again... if "money isn't really a problem any more", then let them help themselves... let them shoot themselves in the foot again... )

I'd leave this out; there's really no reason to include it in this message, and if GS does come looking for a loan or another way of getting money, we can say it isn't possible then.