15-04-2003 20:22									#151
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An excellent analysis, Vondrack; and a nice little victory for us If I recall correctly, though, the GLit only gives a greater chance of survival on sea tiles, it doesn't gurantee it. Can anyone confirm that?

	15-04-2003 20:32									#152
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One advantage is if Vox do manage to capture the lighthouse and all else goes according to plan, we will be able to trade with them. Dyes for incense would do us nicely....

	16-04-2003 00:38									#153
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX An excellent analysis, Vondrack; and a nice little victory for us If I recall correctly, though, the GLit only gives a greater chance of survival on sea tiles, it doesn't gurantee it. Can anyone confirm that?

It does guarantee it. Sea tiles become safe for galleys.

	16-04-2003 01:11									#154
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Yes, sea travel is guaranteed safe for any ship, even galleys. What I'm wondering is whether it really does allow sea trade... does it?

If it does, we have perfect half-truths for GS (who know we have a second iron, BTW, so no telling them we don't have any to trade): We ARE planning to build a harbor (Zargon has requested Zargonia become a naval rather than Barracks city, so it'll build a harbor after the temple); however, the completing time will be so long, I doubt we actually could get Iron to GS on time.

	16-04-2003 01:48									#155
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Just a note: I did tell to GS we had two iron sources... just that it was later found out one of them was outside our cultural borders, thus not actually accessible.

The "harbour completion time issue" is the way to go.

	22-05-2003 12:14									#156
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Just thought I would tell you something I found out talking to nye earlier today... do you know by how long we beat GS to The Pyramids?

1 turn, gentlemen, 1 turn...

And before you start asking... their build never shown up on the F7 screen, as the Palace cost rises with the number of cities. They had more cities, so their build was hidden behind a Palace "prebuild" all the time.



Let's keep that in mind...

	23-05-2003 00:46									#157
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Wow. Amazing how much one turn's difference can make. To think this might decide the game...

I wonder how many more things like this Trip knows? Ah well, we'll see once the game is over.

	24-05-2003 17:36									#158
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Quite surprisingly, we have received a trade offer from Gathering Storm... and to be honest, not a completely bad one... we should definitely consider the consequences of such a deal:

quote: Honorable vondrack of Legoland. Greetings from the land of the Storm. I hope things are going well on your peaceful land. Our people envy yours, for they have almost forgotten how it was living peacefuly, with little fear of untimely death. Fortunately, our enemy's forces experience untimely death more frequently than ours, which are of course good news. With our recent progress in the war, our minds are now set on issues other than warplans, such as tech trade. I am sure you remember we once discussed the prospect of future tech trades, more precisely- us purchasing Theology from you in exchange to Feudalism and a sum of gold to compensate you for the tech cost difference. We assume you are still interested, and that you will soon (if not already) have the tech in your possession. Therefor, we are coming with this offer for a trade agreement. I hope you find it reasonable: 1) GS and Legoland will exchange the techs Theology (Lego) for Feudalism (GS). 2) On the same turn, GS will deliver 60 gold in lump sum, to compensate Legoland for the difference in beaker cost of the two techs. Please reply as soon as possible, and if possible- your current estimate on the ETA of Theology, in case you havn't finished research yet. Zeit, ambassador for the Gathering Storm.

Note, please, that DeepO seems to no longer be the ambassador to our team.

1) We absolutely need to find out if GoW is going to accept our Theo+Mono for Feu+Chiv deal. I will do my best to talk to Master Zen and make it clear that our offer is valid until Sunday midnight. Afterwards, we will feel free to arrange our deals in a different way.

2) I will immediately notify BetaHound of Voxes about this offer - though I do not expect them to mind it at all, since it draws gold out of the GS pocket in exchange for a tech that cannot be used for military purposes.

3) In case GoW does not sign a binding trade agreement with us before Sunday midnight GMT, I would suggest trading with GS for Feudalism, either asking for 80g as a balance (beaker difference is almost 200), or establishing "less than 1/3" of the beaker difference in gold a fair balance (might benefit us in the future with another deal). Either way, 20 turn NDA on the techs. I would then restructure the GoW deal to trade Theology for Chivalry + a no-Sistine clause.

4) In case GoW signs the deal, I'd let GS know that we got Feudalism as part of a Chivalry deal with another team. I would tell them that since we know Feudalism came from them in the first place, we are ready to sell them Theology just for a reasonable gold sum - and that we ask them to offer an amount they would consider appropriate.

Let me know what you think.

I will just acknowledge the receipt of GS' message, telling them we will not be able to get back to them earlier than Tuesday (Memorial Day and whatnot...).

	24-05-2003 17:47									#159
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My short ackowledgment message to GS:

quote: Honorable Ambassador, I am hereby acknowledging the receipt of your kind offer. I have already posted it in our forum and will get back to you once my fellow Legos comment on it. Due to the change of our team government and several Legos being offline due to the Memorial Day weekend, I believe Tuesday is when I, our new President ZargonX, or our ambassador will be authorized to discuss your offer in detail. We shall have Theology ready for trading by that time. Best regards, vondrack, The President of Legoland

	24-05-2003 18:44									#160
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One more thought:

We shall ask for the no Sistine's clause. Even if it means getting less for Theology, we shall do that, as GS is one of the prime candidates for building Sistine's - they lack luxuries almost as much as we do, PLUS they are waging war, which means they can get an insta-wonder through a(nother) GL.

	25-05-2003 07:44									#161
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Agreed, no-Sistine clause is vital.

Edit: Thinking about it, I almost hope GoW doesn't get back in time. We could still attach a no-Sistine to a Edu-Chiv deal, and GS is definitely a Sistine candidate.

	25-05-2003 15:49									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Edit: Thinking about it, I almost hope GoW doesn't get back in time. We could still attach a no-Sistine to a Edu-Chiv deal, and GS is definitely a Sistine candidate.

Actually, the beauty of this solution would be that we would trade THEOLOGY for GoW's Chivalry+noSistine - still a fine deal for them (4 research points in their favour) and leaves us with Education available for future deals...

	30-05-2003 13:22									#163
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Alright, we should get back to GS. Let's start talking about what exactly we would be willing to offer them. Here is what I was thinking about :

1) explain we got Feudalism "almost for free" from another team. An offer you simply do not turn down.

2) tell them we are aware of that the tech originally came from them and even if the seller probably kept his NDA obligations, we would still like to somehow acknowledge Feudalism was "their" tech originally.

3) suggest a bargain deal on Theology (like, dunno, 100-150 gold) on condition they agree to a no Sistine clause.

4) 20 turn NDA.

What do you think?

	30-05-2003 16:38									#164
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Sonds good, even though I'd ask for more, say 200 and eventually go down to 150. (unless they will come with some ridiculuous proposal, in which case we will raise the sum to 250 )

	30-05-2003 16:53									#165
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No problem with the sum, let everybody speak his mind up on this issue...

	30-05-2003 17:15									#166
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I've just remembered how much they've originally asked for Feudalism from us: 200 gold. So offering Theology for 200 to them is actually a fair price.

	30-05-2003 17:21									#167
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Hm, that's a good point!

Theology is more costly beaker-wise, so offering them the same price DOES reflect the fact that it was them researching the tech originally.

It would probably be good to mention that in our message to them.

	30-05-2003 17:37									#168
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Theology is more costly beaker-wise,

Of course it is; I forgot to mention it. This is why I said that 200 would be a fair price.

quote: It would probably be good to mention that in our message to them.

Obviously.

Let's wait for other opinions, too, but not too much because they already know we have Feudalism (they can't offer it to us anymore) and we didn't even bother to decline their offer.

	30-05-2003 20:25									#169
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I would say an offer of 200 would be suitable. And if we can get a no-Sistene's clause out of them, as well, we'll be in very good shape.

	31-05-2003 02:47									#170
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Let me see if I get the deal straight:

We give them Theology; they give a no-Sistine clause and 200 gold. Sounds good, but what say we make it like the Vox deal - in order to sell Theology to someone (once the 20-turn NDA is over), that civ has to agree to not build Sistine's.

Considering ND is a possible trade partner for them, I think we should include that clause.

	31-05-2003 03:08									#171
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We are asking for 200. Since the no-sistine clause is more important than 50 gold, we would be happy even with 150, I think. This way we would get back eventually that Vox loan, only from GS

	31-05-2003 03:13									#172
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I agree that we can lower the price. Especially if we get a no-Sistine clause attached to any redistributions.

	31-05-2003 15:18									#173
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Just received this from Gathering Storm:

quote: Respected vondrack of Legoland. I have not recieved word from you regarding the proposal I had sent you, but I did get an answer from looking at the save file. Your decision to buy Feudalism from another source was quite disappointing for the team and I. The team as a whole expected Lego to acquire the tech from us, as part of a Theology deal, as was discussed a while ago in a chat we've had. We saw no reason to suspect you'd change your mind- that is not to say we did not expect the possibility of such development, which is also why I have sent you the last proposal, but I had assumed that we would at least recieve a refusal in the diplomatic channel, and not have to find out about it ourselves. Sincerely Zeit, ambassador for the Gathering Storm.

	31-05-2003 16:31									#174
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We have to respond somehow. Considering the discussion in this thread, I would like to send GS the following proposal within few hours (I am making it clear it is not official, though):

quote: Respected Ambassador, We sincerely apologize for not getting back to you sooner. The issue of acquiring Feudalism got tricky this week, with quite an unexpected event happening - and the team discussion on how to react and how to properly respond to your proposal, considering the new situation, lead to the delay. It was, however, our fault we did not at least notify you of the development. Accept our apologies for that. The primary event making things complicated was that we received Feudalism from another team. We did not trade for it - we were simply sent it as "accepted" with no ties attached. This put us into a pretty delicate position, as it's rather difficult to reject such a gift without offending the donor - but we had, at the same time, parallel negotiations going on regarding the acquisition of Feudalism from you. Now, after some discussion and hesitation, we eventually accepted the unexpected Feudalism - you do not find it lying around every day... and we are now trying to come up with a fair deal that would allow us to trade you Theology for a price reflecting our desire to maintain good trading relations, while taking into consideration that we no longer need Feudalism. I am currently not in a position allowing me to submit an official trade proposal - but I would like to let you know there is currently an idea having a strong support in our team. According to this plan, we'd sell you Theology for a relatively moderate amount of gold, balancing the price by a "no-wonder" clause. Let me explain: as you probably know, Legoland is quite short of luxuries. We only have one kind here, Dyes. In order to grant our people happy lives, we'll have to make extreme efforts constructing happiness city improvements, trading technologies and gold for the luxuries we lack, and so on. As part of our efforts, we consider building the Sistine's Chapel. We are well aware of that building wonders is always a risky race, often leading to a "waste" of enormous amounts of shields. Thus, we are trying to arrange agreements with other teams that would allow us to safely finish building the Sistine's Chapel. Would your team be willing to waive the possibility of building the Sistine's Chapel in exchange for buying Theology from us for a sum of gold significantly lower than what would be appropriate to the research cost of this technology? As no technology as costly as Theology has been discovered yet, it is a bit difficult to set a price that could be easily recognized as "advantageous"... but ATM, we are thinking along the lines of what you asked for the cheaper Feudalism, maybe even less. The no-Sistine clause is a focus here, more than the gold is... If you can let us know how does this idea sound to you, we would be able to formulate/send an official proposal faster. Keep in mind, please, that I am sort of exceeding my authorization now, in an attempt to fix our fault of seemingly ignoring your latest tech trade proposal. I have not been authorized to submit this as an official proposal - though I strongly believe this will become our official proposal once our members come back on Monday and the discussion reaches a conclusion (your positive or negative feedback regarding the idea might help a lot) - but unfortunately, our team life pretty much stops on weekends, with very few active members remaining available for decision taking... Best regards, vondrack, Military Architect of Legoland

Whoever happens to be here, comment, please!

	31-05-2003 19:52									#175
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I think it is fair on our parts. Perhaps offer to substitute all or part of the gold for their world map which we pledge not to trade to any other team (which wouldn't be surprising given our stance against trading our map).

If you think that the map offer will open a Pandora's Box whereby they might ask for our map, then ignore it.

However, with GoW's mapping of our coasts, very soon we will only have Legos Minor and our interior as the only unexplored area of our continent. So I am feeling that we might want to explore selling our map before GoW uncovers too much more...

	31-05-2003 20:10									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe However, with GoW's mapping of our coasts, very soon we will only have Legos Minor and our interior as the only unexplored area of our continent. So I am feeling that we might want to explore selling our map before GoW uncovers too much more...

First: map of our interior is an extremely valuable stuff. It will take others a lot of gold to stitch it together from city investigations. Without others knowing what is there, invasions will be very difficult to plan... I would rather waive the gold we could get from such a deal and keep that knowledge secret or difficult to obtain.

Second: I believe it was agreed that we would not trade our map under any circumstances. As this message of mine has been put together without much discussing/consulting taking part (in order to respond to an apparently upset GS ambassador), I will better stick to what was agreed upon before. As the PM is presented strictly as an unofficial communication, we can later back off or adjust the proposal.

The goal is now to find out if GS would be willing to waive Sistine's... they may be willing to do so, as they are probably planning a war of elimination against Voxes now, tuning their economy for military purposes.

One note: if we suceed to get a no Sistine clause from all other teams, what will be the first thing to do? Build Bach's... ...and only then get back to Sistine's...

EDIT: I am going to send the PM off to zeit now.

	31-05-2003 21:36									#177
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Too bad I didn't see this earlier.
Mostly I agree with the letter, except that I wouldn't have gone into sch detail explaining how we got Feudalism. Somebody gifting us Feud means a very-very good relationship with one of the other teams, and they will start questionin themselves who that team may be. Maybe GoW and the others too will tell them "Hey, it wasn't us!" and there you go, our secret alliance with Vox is exposed.

	31-05-2003 22:12									#178
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I know that it has been agreed not to trade our map. That has been a long-standing policy. But we know that GoW is trading around their world map based on our discussions with Vox.

From my reckoning, only RedBricks, Farmerville, Karina and the future site of Ahmyfoot will remain completely covered. That is 3 current cities of 12 and eventually 4 out of a probable 20? Fairly small in my opinion although parts of the land of other cities would also remain uncovered as well. Hardly "extremely valuable" when it is and will be a very small part of our territory.

As for Legos Minor, only the "Garland Crater" area would mostly remain uncovered and a whole bunch of useless territory.

I am not recommending that we do or do not sell our map, but perhaps we should put out feelers to find out if and how much the other civs would be willing to pay for our map.

Last edited by Sharpe on 01-06-2003 at 03:29

	31-05-2003 23:55									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Too bad I didn't see this earlier. Mostly I agree with the letter, except that I wouldn't have gone into sch detail explaining how we got Feudalism. Somebody gifting us Feud means a very-very good relationship with one of the other teams, and they will start questionin themselves who that team may be. Maybe GoW and the others too will tell them "Hey, it wasn't us!" and there you go, our secret alliance with Vox is exposed.

Tibi, I would not be worried about this - I intentionally put it so that it sounds like we were very surprised to receive Feudalism the way we did (which is, after all, true). GS will question the reasoning of the donor, that's for sure. But there is more than one possible reason:

a) the donor is in a very good relationship with us
b) the donor wants to be in a very good relationship with us
c) the donor is in a very bad relationship with them (and wanted to harm them by giving us Feu for free)

I hope I put it (at least I tried) so that GS can suspect Voxes, GoW, and RP - either of these teams could have a reason to cut GS... and even if GS figure out it was Voxes giving us Feudalism, they will never be able to figure out the reason why Voxes did so - could be a,b, c...

	31-05-2003 23:56									#180
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You have a good point; most of our cities are coastal, so they can be uncovered and then investigated through an embassy. But it would be a lot of gold to investigate all 15 or so cities. Also, I'd like to keep the Karina area out of view as long as possible; the FP is in some ways more important than the palace, since it is destroyed, not moved.