 |
| |
|
|
vondrack
|
 |
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
I think our true objective is for the winner of the Vox-GS war to be on OUR side. Although Vox has been friendly to us, that might not continue in the long-run. I could live with either Vox or GS winning as clearly both of them seem interested in maintaining a good relationship with us (makes sense given both sides anti-Bob sentiments). |
Respectfully, I must disagree. At least as I perceive and approach the situation, our objective now is to do our best to help Voxes win their war, either eliminating or seriously damaging Gathering Storm. The reason is very simple: while Voxes pose and shall pose little threat to us economically (as recovering from the war, even if from a victorious one, will undoubtedly take them some time, which we will spend peacefully developing, further increasing our lead), Gathering Storm would be an extremely strong opponent, if allowed to develop freely.
Also, I have not noticed Gathering Storm would be interested in "maintaining a good relationship with us" - unless you consider the relationship between the GS-master and Lego-servant/slave a good one. Have we ever been offered a fair deal from their side? I am quite sure we were not. And I am not even mentioning their arrogant behaviour. What good would be if they win the war and "be on our side"? Would we have a reason to hope for better deals than those we've been offered so far?
I do not think we should make our involvement publicly known, as we have little to gain from openly admitting we are siding with Voxes, but I do not want to just sit and wait until Vox or GS start winning clearly - I seriously believe we should actively (even if secretly) support Vox Controli in their war against GS.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Sharpe
|
 |
Ontario
May 1999
time: 00:26
|
|
Respectfully, I disagree. All I am saying is don't put all your Estonian eggs in the Vox basket.
If Vox is destroyed or even does not make much or any headway with GS, then we will need a bigger ally than Vox, especially if RP or GoW/NeuD do attack us.
Don't write off any possible friendship with GS - their attempt to rip us off has been mild compared to our relations with RP and ND - and a possible betrayal by GoW.
If we support Vox too much and they lose, it is almost certain that GS will become an enemy - and we are rapidly losing potential friends...
Plus no matter how strong we are, we will have difficulty repelling an invasion by 2 or more Human civs. An reliable and relatively strong ally is needed. Unless they defeat GS or gain most of their territory, right now Vox isn't that yet.
Btw, why was Vox stupid enough to trade their map so that GS could see it before Vox attacked ?
Last edited by Sharpe on 12-04-2003 at 06:21
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Tiberius
|
 |
Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:26
|
|
I think there's no need to find excuses in the response to the GS proposal, nor to lye ... too much  . I'd tell them that we are not interested in Feudalism, we want a package deal on Feud+Chivalry but only later, when both Chivalry and our Theology will be closer. We should also mention that we don't have that much money like we would hoped so, because we were unable to trade C&C with the RPs, because some other teams who shouldn't have to (Vox) did it. We are still pissed off because of this trade and we should let them guess this. Maybe this will make them behave in a little more civilized manner in their trade proposals and agreements.
We should also honestly thank them for the info update on Bob (this time it's really valuable; if it's true, that is).
As for our involvement: IMHO we should help Vox, because the more headache they can cause to the GS the better. The GS is a much bigger threat in the long run. I would go so far as gifting them money.
GS may be arrogant but not stupid. Even if they will win this war and find out that we have helped Vox, they will prefer to work with us rather than GoW, ND or RPs, who are a much bigger threat for them in the short run. It's like the Vox war: they were furious at them in the beginning, but after a few rants they admit it now that it was Vox's best (only?) chance to sneak-attack the GS and they even admire the way in which Vox tricked them.
About Bob: we know we can trust no one, so we must keep our eyes open and try to prevent a unified Bob. Probably GoW will backstab us sooner or later (like any other team) but let them depend on us until then (good tech deals) and try to make them our ally for now. GF said it many times: they see us as their best partner, with us researching and them fighting.
Btw, when do we want to trigger our GA? Maybe during the 2 or 3 wonder building period? We want Sistine, Bach's and probably one more. We could make this GA triggering a part of a tech deal with GoW.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
Respectfully, I disagree. All I am saying is don't put all your Estonian eggs in the Vox basket. |
I do not think I suggest putting "all Estonian eggs in the Vox basket". We would be doing that by publicly expressing our support to Voxes. By not helping GS and secretly helping Voxes, we are making our best to ensure our "investment" yields interest eventually, while still leaving the backdoor open for the unlikely case Voxes fail badly.
quote:
If Vox is destroyed or even does not make much or any headway with GS, then we will need a bigger ally than Vox, especially if RP or GoW/NeuD do attack us. |
Like if 37 immortals does not make much or any headway with GS? 
Plus, what makes you believe GS would help us, if a Bobian civ or civs invaded Legos? All GS have showed interest in so far has been making lopsided tech deals...
quote:
Don't write off any possible friendship with GS - their attempt to rip us off has been mild compared to our relations with RP and ND - and a possible betrayal by GoW. |
I agree that RPers are even worse... but I do not see what is wrong with our relations with ND? We made no deals, they did nothing to us, we did nothing to them - that is certainly way better than what GS tried upon us with the infamous C+C deal.
And to make your point complete, we should also not write off a possible betrayal by GS... after all, we'd be their biggest economic competitor, so sooner or later, it would be in their interest to at least indirectly do harm to us.
GS clearly demonstrated they are not interested in any true friendship with Legoland. If they were they would have proposed a fair deal. Instead, they were determined to rip us off until the very last moment - if it was not us taking care of things, we'd now be like 280g poorer... and them richer. I do not care for such "friends" or "allies". Plus, they are a nuisance to deal with.
quote:
If we support Vox too much and they lose, it is almost certain that GS will become an enemy - and we are rapidly losing potential friends... |
First: I have clearly said we have nothing to gain by PUBLICLY supporting Voxes. I'm all for doing it secretly, so even if they lost, GS would be unlikely to ever learn about the true extent of our involvement (especially as they seem to be less than excited about accepting potential Vox players into their ranks). That is exactly why I am trying to think up credible "reasons preventing us from trading for Feu at the moment", instead of just telling GS "sorry, not interested".
Second, what leads you to state "we are rapidly losing potential friends"??? RPers were never our real friends, so we could have hardly "lost" them as a potential friend... and even if you wish to look at it in this way, then it was them making sure we're not allies now. GoW is on the best terms with us - I have not noticed a slightest sign of hostility from their side. They are 100% fair in dealing with us. And if you mean that they may atack us some time in the future... well, applying this kind of logic would mean we never had, do not have, and will never have any friends - this game is about one team winning. Means even your best friend will have to turn against you, if you are the last two teams standing. And as I said before - our relations with ND are simply non-existent. There are none. They never were our friends and it is quite difficult to say what their attitude towards us is.
So, please, explain - what do you mean by stating "we are rapidly losing potential friends"? And maybe even more importantly - applying the same kind of logic, which teams are in a different situation?
RPers certainly have no friends at all, mostly because of their dishonest conduct of foreign affairs - have to fear ND & GoW because of their geographic location. Have barely acceptable relations with us, GS, and Voxes. No friends anywhere I look.
ND have to fear GoW & RPers because of being sandwiched between them on Bob... and have basically no relations worth mentioning with us and Estonians.
GoW have to fear ND & RPers because of sharing a continent with them; currently side with Voxes against GS. Very good relations with us & Voxes ATM (same as us). As many "friends" as we have.
And Voxes...? Do they have more friends than we have?
Explain, please...
quote:
Plus no matter how strong we are, we will have difficulty repelling an invasion by 2 or more Human civs. An reliable and relatively strong ally is needed. Unless they defeat GS or gain most of their territory, right now Vox isn't that yet. |
Errrmmm... like we would happily let Voxes side with our enemies in a potential conflict? With their 37 immortals? This kind of military is capable of destroying or at least very seriously damaging ANY team in this game at the moment. They have more immortals then we have ALL units together, including workers! I suspect they have close to 2 immos per every military unit of ours - and our military is on par with everybody else, but RPers... Is that not a strong ally? Besides, if GS wins in the end, why should they become our "reliable and relatively strong ally"? I will repeat that again: I have seen no indication of GS wanting to be our ally. I did notice their attempt to make us their b|tch, though.
quote:
Btw, why was Vox stupid enough to trade their map so that GS could see it before Vox attacked ? |
Stupid??? Why was that stupid? Voxes sold their world map to GS just before launching their invasion. It was a ruse - and a very good one, IMHO. IIRC, they got 100 gold for it - that is 2.5 less swordsman upgrade for GS and 2.5 more immortal upgrade for Voxes. Altogether a difference of 5 upgraded units. I definitely don't think it was stupid... if GS - despite all the Voxian immortals pouring into their lands - successfully counterattack as far as getting onto the Vox territory, Voxes will be losing badly anyway, so GS having their map will not really matter that much...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tiberius
I think there's no need to find excuses in the response to the GS proposal, nor to lye ... too much . I'd tell them that we are not interested in Feudalism, we want a package deal on Feud+Chivalry but only later, when both Chivalry and our Theology will be closer. We should also mention that we don't have that much money like we would hoped so, because we were unable to trade C&C with the RPs, because some other teams who shouldn't have to (Vox) did it. We are still pissed off because of this trade and we should let them guess this. Maybe this will make them behave in a little more civilized manner in their trade proposals and agreements. |
Yep, agreed. Seems that we are gradually getting to agree that we should pose as being low on cash, not interested in trading for Feudalims alone, wishing to postpone arranging trades until Chivalry and Theology become available.
quote:
Btw, when do we want to trigger our GA? Maybe during the 2 or 3 wonder building period? We want Sistine, Bach's and probably one more. We could make this GA triggering a part of a tech deal with GoW. |
I believe we should time it so that we have all of Legos Major settled and cities at or close to pop 6, so that we make the most out of it. Arranging a deal with another team is one possibility, building, say, Colossus is another (a cheap wonder that brings nice money - and we have two cities capable of building it pretty quickly, especially Panama would be a fine place to build it in, due to being situated on a river, thus able to grow up to pop 12 without an aqueduct).
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
|
|
OK, considering the responses so far, here goes my attempt on a draft of our message to GS... let's start discussing the precise wording. We shall dispatch it tomorrow morning at latest - leaving this stuff for the chat tomorrow evening would be dangerous... with them asking questions, something might slip and weaken our negotiating position and/or credibility. We better make it clear what our stance is ATM before the chat and then just have a talk about "future possibilities".
quote:
Dear DeepO,
As promised yesterday, here is at least a quick update on the situation Lego is in ATM and on the Feudalism deal proposal you've presented.
To our disappointment, our deals on Currency and Construction went only so-so, despite Construction being our exclusive at the time (and Currency, too, at least for few turns). We were only able to trade C+C to two other teams... RPers even going as far as getting the techs from an illegal source  . And as if that was not enough, the barbarian uprisings spawned after the world went medieval had some unplanned for consequences for us... 
The fact is that paying 200 gold for a technology that brings no immediate benefit to us (our Mercenaries are better than Pikemen + we are not planning to attempt building Sun Tzu's) does not sound right. Even slowing down our full speed research of Theology in order to set 12gpt aside for you seems hardly justified. Let's wait a couple of turns until Chivalry and Theology are available for trade (we are a little bit over 10 turns from discovering Theology ATM) and get back to the issue then.
As for the rest of information - thanks for keeping us updated. Especially the information about RPers is quite worrying, as they pose to be our best friends all the time... dunno what to think of that...
Looking forward to our Sunday chat!
Radek aka vondrack |
Well, the only lie is that "Looking forward to our Sunday chat" part..
Otherwise, everything is plain true... 
|
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
|
|
I have had an interesting argument with Tibi in the chatroom. Instead of summing it up, I will include it in its entirety (almost - chitchat edited out):
quote:
* Tiberius has joined #Legoland
Tiberius: Hi!
Tiberius: I wanted to comment the GS PM
vondrack: yes?
Tiberius: I'd trim completely the barb part
Tiberius: It's enough to say that we don't want to spend so much money on a tech that doesn't interest us too much
Tiberius: why should we lie about barbarians sacking us?
vondrack: well, we do not say they sacked us - we say their uprising had unplanned for consequences, which is 100% true - we had to delay Logville
Tiberius: yes, sort of. but what's the point?
Tiberius: there's no need to find excuses and justifications
vondrack: well, just saying we do not want to spend that much money on the tech may get us into troubles
vondrack: what if GS lowers itself enough to ask for a financial aid?
vondrack: if we make it seem like we do not HAVE the money, we are avoiding the problem in advance
Tiberius: Hmm
vondrack: we should make our (pretended) position as bulletproof as possible - any manoeuvring later on will rise suspicions
vondrack: let's think up one story and stick to it, no matter what
Tiberius: the C&C thing is good
Tiberius: But that barb story is still dangerous and hard to believe
Tiberius: I wouldn't believe it
vondrack: not hard to believe at all
vondrack: imagine 8 horsies attacking a city with 1 warrior
vondrack: first five horsies manage to kill the warrior
vondrack: remaining three sack
vondrack: 150 gold gone - easily
Tiberius: but that's still a lie
vondrack: as GS like to garrison their cities with warriors only (look at ISDG), it will not sound hard to believe
vondrack: but we are not going to tell them
vondrack: and even if
Tiberius: they might ask in the chat
vondrack: this would be a lie they would NEVER be able to catch us in
vondrack: nobody can confirm/deny that
Tiberius: they don't know how many gold we have
Tiberius: how much
vondrack: that's right
Tiberius: so, why should we try to explain why we don't have enough to pay for Feud?
Tiberius: let's just say that we don't have enough to grant loans and buy techs
Tiberius: how much is "enough", that depends on our plans and politics
Tiberius: they must not know that
vondrack: that's a lie, too
vondrack: as much as the barb hint
Tiberius: which one?
vondrack: that we do not have money enough
vondrack: we have almost 500 gold
Tiberius: "enough" is very relative
vondrack: I mean - I agree that giving too many reasons would be bad, but giving two (one of them 100% true, the other one unconfirmable) should be just fine
Tiberius: my problem is, giving reasons why we don't have money is suspicios
Tiberius: we don't have and don't want to spend it. period
Tiberius: 
vondrack: but that is like clearly saying "we do not want to help you"
vondrack: period
vondrack: that's unfriendly
Tiberius: still better than saying "**** you"
vondrack: slightly, yes
vondrack: hehe
vondrack: better pretend "we are unable to help you"
vondrack: if we are able to come up with credible reasons...
Tiberius: OK, then keep the reasons for the chat, IMHO
vondrack: now that is very dangerous
vondrack: while we have hours to ponder about the message
vondrack: you have less than minutes to react in a chat
vondrack: you choose a wrong course
vondrack: and it starts moving the wrong way
Tiberius: do you think that once put in the PM that we don't have enough money, they won't ask details in the chat?
vondrack: oh yes, they will ask, but we stick to the story
vondrack: C+C part is 100% true
Tiberius: indeed
vondrack: and if they directly ask about the barb part, we will lie
vondrack: no way to catch us
vondrack: keep in mind that GS may know how much money we got from GoW (or RPers)
vondrack: not likely, but it is always a possibility
Tiberius: We could tell them that we Mono was expensive
vondrack: bad idea, they will ask why we got it from somewhere else
vondrack: when they offered it to us
Tiberius: their offer was very vague
vondrack: but they were willing to give it right away leaving details "for later"
vondrack: if Mono was to be expensive for us
vondrack: it would make sense to at least contact them first
Tiberius: anyway, if they know anout our deals, they will know we can't lose 500 gold to barbs
vondrack: no, no
vondrack: they are able to know about some of them only
vondrack: GoW
vondrack: and that is it
Tiberius: 250 from GoW
vondrack: 80 from them
Tiberius: 330 already, plus the inevitable savings
vondrack: nobody knows what we had to pay for the tech catchup deal
Tiberius: maybe they know about Monarchy, too
vondrack: I do not believe so, RPers have no reason to tell them
vondrack: and even if, that would be another reason to use the barb trick
vondrack: the amount of money you lose to barbs
vondrack: is proportional to how much you have in your treasury
vondrack: the more you have, the more you lose
vondrack: we have to choose what kind of story we are going to stick to
vondrack: that's actually what we are discussing over this draft |
I would like to stress the very last part... with this message, we shall choose our "version" of the truth. One that we shall stick to, no matter what. It shall be bulletproof enough to allow us to politely turn down GS requests for financial help (in any form) w/o telling them "we do not want to help you" - but rather insisting on "we are not able to help you". In case Voxes do not eliminate GS completely or even lose eventually, that should make it easier to cooperate with GS after the war is over.
As for the barb thing: I have no problem to use a plain lie as long as there is no way to find out we lied. The barb trick is perfectly safe, as nobody can actually know if something happened... I would go as far as creating an "official version" of what happened - just in case they ask curious questions:
...you know, we planned to found a new city down there, right next to a mouth of a river. Beatiful location. When the settler, escorted by one of our early warriors, arrived at the city site, he found himself standing right next to a barb camp. The timing seemed to be tight, but ok - we found the city one turn before everybody else in the world receiving C+C from us, dispersing the camp, supposedly preventing the uprising to spawn from it. What we didn't know was that the very moment we "accepted" the C+C trade with you (happened right after loading the turn), barb camps received their doses of bad horsies. And we just watched in horror how all of them (+ the warrior-sucker ...) attacked our new city. Our warrior fought bravely, but was overwhelmed eventually. Three raiders paid a visit...
Now this is what almost happened. We were one turn from having this happening at the Logville site - if we arrived there just one turn earlier and I failed to notice the horse stack appearing in the camp, this would be exactly the course of events...
Everybody, add your comments, please, this is important. The story we think up now is to be followed for the next 10-20 turns... most probably throughout the whole GS-Vox war.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
Radek, I love how you want me to explain everything in detail; however, when it comes to your policies - you don't explain much... |
I do not explain much??? 
OK, will try to fix that...
quote:
I don't have to justify anything more to you - I have clearly stated my view - you ARE putting all our eggs in a Vox victory, while I am cautioning us to wait and see - play off both sides and then support more the potential winner if things become more clear. Even a partial Vox victory is by no means certain... |
You seem to miss the fact that my topmost priority right now is to find a way to keep our relations with GS fine... while not improving their chances to successfully defend against Voxes even a smallest bit.
As far as actually providing aid to both warring parties... it is like betting equally on both colours in roulette... you undoubtedly win... with one bet. But you undoubtedly lose the other. This war will most probably end with one team being eliminated. Whatever we invest into the loser, will be gone. Getting GS map? You admit it is very unlikely they'd be willing to trade for it (even a request to do so would most probably be taken as an offense... if not as a sign of us trying to get vital intel from them). Getting Feudalism & Chivalry? When we almost have a deal with GoW, which is a much more important trading partner for us, due to their proximity to our homeland?
I will state my view clearly, too, now - I do NOT want us to play both sides actually. I want us to help Voxes, even if not declaring our support publicly. I want us to do things in such a way that GS has no clue we are against them, but that's it. And I feel very strongly about it.
If Voxes eliminate GS (especially if our aid affects the outcome of the war by more than a little bit), we benefit greatly, losing our main economic competitor (plus, possibly gaining one grateful ally). OTOH, if GS eliminate Voxes, we gain absolutely nothing - even if we actually provide substantial aid to GS, they would never admit it was us helping them survive - just read their messages to us. GS is "the" elite team... they are perfectly able to handle any kind of threat, they can do it on their own, they have no problem with money etc. etc.
quote:
Vox DOES NOT have 37 immos now - they have said that right now they have 12-15 IIRC. If both of Vox's and GS's images are to be believed, both an immortal and a war chariot have won victories meaning both are in the Golden ages. (and Vox lost one of their immortals) |
Not true. See my post here. Quoting (that was 2 turns ago):
quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
1) Voxes currently have 15 immos. 7 more warriors will be upgraded within 2 turns. 15 more warriors shall be built within the next 5 turns - all of them to be upgraded to immos (they have a smart road network setup allowing them to build warriors in all their cities but one, upgrading them to immos with just a little delay in that last city that is barracked - as the only one - connected to iron). That is 37 immortals altogether within 7 turns from now.   |
That is 22 immos (21, as one died) within 5 turns from now. Plus: GS may have its iron either connected or not. If not, they are not able to build swords or pikes -> having to fight immos with war chariots & spears. Lost case. Period. Or they have it connected - in which case they have to build swords and pikes, which are more expensive. That effectively eliminates their economic superiority. Voxes need 10 shields and gold to field one immortal. GS needs at least 20 shields to field a unit worth mentioning (War Chariot), but much more likely 30 shields (for Swords & Pikes). That effectively eliminates their economic superiority. Plus, the war is being fought on the GS' soil - Voxes will pillage, cut roadlinks (imagine Voxes cut GS iron & horses! game effectively over) and otherwise damage GS infrastructure, while not having the same problem in their own territory.
I am not saying Voxes must win. We do not know what GS is able to squeeze out of their economy. But I am quite sure their chances of winning are fine. At least 50:50. So whatever we do to help them, tips the scales in their favour.
quote:
GS likely has a lot more cities right now than Vox perhaps nearly twice as many if the score is to be believed - and will due to their economic strength plus their golden age will be able to outproduce Vox by some margin over the next 20 turns. Plus GS has the advantages of roads while Vox's slower units with no roads might give GS more of an edge on defense - plus Vox has to get those extra immos down there - that will probably take some time. Plus GS probably has a few chariots which have the mobility edge over Vox. |
As mentioned before - GS economic strength is severely offset by the fact they are forced to build more expensive units. Since their military is weak compared to ours, while they appear to have more cities than we do, they are likely to be stretched quite thin militarily. Just look at how weak our defenses are in the South. One unit per city at most. The advantage of roads will not last forever - all it takes to cut a link is one spear and one turn time. War Chariots attacking immos have less than 50% chance of winning (A2 vs. D2+defense modifier). Even if they retreat, they are toast, as the counterattack is A4 vs. D1+defense modifier.
And you quite correctly point out that GS core is under immediate threat - imagine us (with all our cities) losing just 3 cities: Legopolis, Panama, Jackson. Game over for us. With tighter spacing, GS probably have more than 3 useful core cities, but still... taking out 5 key production centres will be as good as knocking GS down completely.
quote:
I can easily foresee GS losing a few cities in the initial Vox attack especially as they are possibly defended by warriors - but it is possible that they might take them back - however, admittedly Vox is targeting the GS core cities including their capital which would severely hurt most civs. If GS does take back their core cities, Vox may be in trouble although GS would be severely damaged due to those losses. Don't forget that GS will have or has feudalism soon - and the immos will take a ton of damage vs pikes if they can upgrade to them in time. |
Spears can be upgraded to Pikes only if being in a city with barracks, connected to iron. How many barracked cities you think GS have? Spears moving along roads are great targets for immos (and if the cities are close to each other, then immos will need less time to reach 'em). Also, Pikes are fine defenders, but woefully poor attackers - if GS spend their resources on Pikes, they will effectively allow Voxes to roam freely around their territory. Which means terrible damage to their infrastructure. And I am not mentioning the fact that GS iron is Voxes' primary target - cutting it is the first thing they will focus on. Plus, GoW is supposed to throw in some horsemen right after getting Feudalism from GS.
quote:
My view is that we should support Vox by ONLY trading gold if we get their map to start and to try to do the same thing to GS. That way we might have all of the maps of the civs (though it is unlikely that GS will trade the map without ours at the moment). |
I do not oppose the idea of asking the Voxian map in return for more funds. That is perfectly justified and fair. However, I do oppose any kind of deal that would help GS in any way. The value of their map to us is totally negligible compared to the possibility of having them leave the game.
quote:
That "barb" story is a complete lie which won't be believed - so we lost a few turns in settling two of our cities - big deal - we didn't come even close to losing any of our units either... go with saying that our gold resources are limited due to needed upgrades and other matters - THAT is the truth - we will need more gold to upgrade our units, to support our units when we reach Republic and to possibly gold rush some items. |
I do not say it is not a lie. Yes, it is a pure lie (the full story, I mean - the statement we had some unplanned for troubles with barbs is 100% true). But I do not know why they should disbelieve it. Founding a new city and garrisoning it with one warrior is perfectly justifiable on a continent where the only threat comes from barbs. A stack of 8 barb horses is perfectly capable of defeating a regular warrior fortified on flat land. And as explained earlier, the situation almost happened in Logville.
Do not get me wrong - if the majority of the team says we shall not play the barb card, we won't. Just that our position will be a bit more difficult then, IMHO, as we will be saying "well, we know you need help, but our own needs - however insignificant they are compared to your own struggle for survival - are more important for us" in a more obvious way than if blaming low treasury on a barb raid).
I will include a summary here, to make my stance very clear:
1) I want us to support Voxes ONLY.
2) I don't want GS to get a clue we support Voxes.
3) I consider the possibility of elimination of our primary economic rival worth a very significant bet.
4) I do not believe we can gain anything by supporting GS.
5) I believe chances of Voxes winning this war are pretty good. At least as good as those of GS (better, IMHO).
Howgh.
P.S.: I am still curious what you meant by stating "we are rapidly losing potential friends".
|
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
RP is a lost cause - they are clearly closer to being our enemy than a friend now - GS has indicated that they are talking about attacking us |
Correct. Though I do not see what could have been done differently to prevent this.
quote:
Vox is a friend - although they really haven't done much for us - so it has been mostly a one-sided friendship |
This is not quite correct though. It was actually Voxes who made the whole C+C/Rep/Mono deal possible by trading Monotheism to us directly. The deal was fine for them and fine for us, since we gained upper hand over GS in our own deal. If Voxes did not help, we would end up being ripped off by GS... having to pay lots of gold for Monotheism, getting it at least a bit later.
quote:
Not many "friends" left - those that have been friendly eventually try to swindle us. The comments from GS and Vox admittedly may be untrue, but they sound like they have a distinct likelihood of being true. |
OK and now try doing the same summary for any other team... will it be any different? If not, then what's the point? By the very nature of this game, all "friendships" are temporary. We seem to have at least two teams friendly to us ATM, two others not hostile, and RPers... that's pretty good, isn't it?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Tiberius
|
|
Europe
Jan 2000
time: 06:26
|
|
I mostly agree with Vondrack in this debate
Let's see:
quote:
1) I want us to support Voxes ONLY.
2) I don't want GS to get a clue we support Voxes.
3) I consider the possibility of elimination of our primary economic rival worth a very significant bet.
4) I do not believe we can gain anything by supporting GS.
5) I believe chances of Voxes winning this war are pretty good. At least as good as those of GS (better, IMHO).
|
1) Bying their WM would be a good idea.
2) Obviously
3) Exactly
4) Absolutely
5) I agree.
Especially 3 and 4 are important, IMHO. GS is just like the RP. They never wanted a real alliance. All they want from a "friend" is helping them in their grand plan; we were able to see this very well in the C&C trade mess. We wouldn't win anything by supporting them.
Even if the GS would wins, what are we losing? The friendship of GS? That never existed.
I understand your concers Sharpe, but really saying that we are rapidly losing friends doens't have any basis nor does it have relevance in this debate (nor can you blame Radek for it). GS, ND or RP were never our friends. Neither was Vox, until now (they still aren't, but can be if we help them now). We know GoW is opportunistic, this is why we're trying to keep them on our side as long as possible. ND could be an enemy or an ally, it depends. I think that with a proper approach they could be a trustworthy partner, at least.
So who else should we try to make our "friends"? RP? GS? I'm sorry, but I'd rather have them enemies than allies. At least an enemy can't backstab you.
Finally, I'm strongly against any action that would help GS, especially after the treatment they applied to us in their trade offers. I don't want to give them a cent, but I'd prefer not to lie. (hence the "mostly agree" with Radek ). Saying that we don't have "enough" money is enough and true. We want to change to Republic soon and we need all the gold for rushes and upgrades. Besides we never know when will we need to pay some GoW mercenaries to defend us against the RP, for example. If they can't accept a simple NO and some decent explanations (see above) and they will be pushing a loan idea in the chat, I'd blame the C&C deal and that should shut their mouthes up.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
|
|
Hmmm... thinking what Tibi says over again... he's probably right. Let's tell them plain no, no lies involved, however safe they might be. We're strong enough to be able to afford that. We've made no fine deal with them so far, so even if they survive, recover, and develop a dislike for us, we will not be losing much.
OK, let's scrap the barb card. Let's refer to the C+C deal, low importance of Feudalism, and "not enough gold" only (revised draft - to be sent tomorrow morning, if nobody objects):
quote:
Dear DeepO,
As promised yesterday, here is at least a quick update on the situation Lego is in ATM and on the Feudalism deal proposal you've presented.
To our disappointment, our deals on Currency and Construction went only so-so, despite Construction being our exclusive at the time (and Currency, too, at least for few turns). We were only able to trade C+C to two other teams... RPers even going as far as getting the techs from an illegal source .
The fact is that paying 200 gold for a technology that brings no immediate benefit to us (our Mercenaries are better than Pikemen + we are not planning to attempt building Sun Tzu's) does not sound right, considering how much cash we have and how much cash we need. Even slowing down our full speed research of Theology in order to set 12gpt aside for you seems not justified. Let's wait a couple of turns until Chivalry and Theology are available for trade (we are a little bit over 10 turns from discovering Theology ATM) and get back to the issue then.
As for the rest of information - thanks for keeping us updated. Especially the information about RPers is quite worrying, as they pose to be our best friends all the time... dunno what to think of that...
Looking forward to our Sunday chat!
Radek aka vondrack |
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
|
|
Earlier today, I sent the following message to DeepO via email (could not post it earlier here - Poly was down):
quote:
Hi, DeepO!
As promised, here is at least a quick update on the situation Lego is in ATM and on the Feudalism deal proposal you've presented.
To our disappointment, our deals on Currency and Construction went only so-so, despite Construction being our exclusive at the time (and Currency, too, at least for few turns). We were only able to trade C+C to two other teams... RPers even going as far as getting the techs from an illegal source.
The fact is that paying 200 gold for a technology that brings no immediate benefit to us (our Mercenaries are better than Pikemen + we are not planning to attempt building Sun Tzu's) does not sound right, considering how much cash we have and how much cash we need. Even slowing down our full speed research of Theology in order to set 12gpt aside for you seems not justified. Let's wait a couple of turns until Chivalry and Theology are available for trade (we are a little bit over 10 turns from discovering Theology ATM) and get back to the issue then.
As for the rest of information - thanks for keeping us updated. Especially the information about RPers is quite worrying, as they say they are our best friends all the time... dunno what to think of that...
Looking forward to our chat today!
vondrack |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
|
|
Coming back from lunch, I have found DeepO's response in my mailbox:
quote:
Vondrack,
I can understand your position on Feudalism, and frankly, I personally didn't expect you to buy it directly from us now. We can't offer you any discount on the price, as we're already losing money on this tech when asking for 200 gold for each trade, especially now that Vox is no longer an interested party (Well, I don't know if they have realised that we were so close, we can upgrade before their first unit would reach one of our cities.)
However we have concerns that, even as we put definately most trouble into getting the tech, other teams would 'steal' our profits. It took us a while to convince GoW to buy from us, instead of doing it themselves, which gave us a lot of insight of how things are going on Bob. Apparently, the reason why they wanted to do it themselves, at higher cost and longer eta was that RP had demanded it, in the spirit of a trade embargo against us. (us being GS here). But ND does not listen so closely to RP, and wanted to buy Feud from us, which would put GoW at a considerable delay in getting Chivalry.
Timing of next techs: I can only guess at it, but if we would go for full research, we should be able to get next tech in 6-7 turns (so after Feud). I don't think we'll do that, we can use the money to rush some of our improvements that now don't get build because we need more troops. But it should be easy to both get some cash, and finish our next tech around the time you finish Theo. We're in full debate which tech that will be: it looks like Chivalry would either be a super tech to research if we can sell it to both GoW and ND, or a total waste if both would research it themselves. If we don't offer it to them, we can be sure there are two teams who will waste beakers on the tech, so maybe it's best if we would go for something else (invention?) in the mean time. But this is still heavily debated right now, the situation has changed in more then one respect with this Vox war. But, no matter which tech we would go for, we would end that second tech around the same time as you would end Theo.
You've just given us more proof of the closeness and dangers from the Bobians, with the C&C deals (we had similar problems with republic). That was already the start of their trade embargo against us (us being both Lego and GS here). I can imagine who was willing to play the secret source on construction: Vox. They have been backstabbing us for about 10-15 turns, if we afterwards analyse where our relation soured. Which would be perfectly in time to get some more money out of tech trades they were not allowed to commit.
RP: yes, they seem friendly, but I swear they told us you were the biggest threat to them in specific and to everyone in general, and that they were looking for ideas how to stop that. So, at that moment their tone towards us was super friendly, solliciting to get into alliances against the evil Lego empire... however, at the same time they were asking exactly the same thing of GoW, only not an alliance against Lego, but against GS. And I can only imagine that they have sent quite a few messages to you, to try to set you up against GS.
One of the dirtiest trick they use (dirty in the sense that we should look out for them, not in the sense of being illegal in this game) are the unofficial messages. These are like "we will deny to have sent you this information, but you know that XX is backstabbing you in your deal on YYY, right?". So far, all the messages we received contained an element of thruth in there, and were vague enough on other fronts. All were directed to make us angry, or sour relations, or 'expose' something another team had been allegedly doing to us. While we were close to Vox, most were about Vox. Now, we're beginning to receive them about you, and GoW (ND has very little contact with RP, it seems. Or they hide it very well). I can only imagine you are getting the same messages, if you get any about us, never be afraid to simply ask whether something is true, instead of assuming RP is telling you the thruth, to help you. They're only trying to help themselves.
Last comment: we have obtained maps of Bob, maybe you have too, maybe you haven't. Anyway, we can't give you our WM directly as we will not give away our own map so easily, but if you would be interested in eg screenshots (up to date up to 2 turns ago, when we received the map), maybe we can strike a deal. Otherwise, we have more accurate information on the Bobians (well, more accurate... the number of cities I told you earlier was quite an accurate analysis, but the situation has changed a bit, and it gets harder and harder to analyse it from the F-screens)
See you tonight, I'm looking forward to it. I hope I'll be able to get into the chatroom, a couple of days ago I tried for nearly 2 hours before finaly giving up.
DeepO |
My comments in the next post.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
|
|
First: I must admit I didn't have as much trouble reading through this message as was the case with previous GS messages. It is a bit less arrogant/cocky and actually contains a wealth of quite interesting information.
Here is a couple of observations:
1) It was a good idea to scrap the barb card. We got away with a simple "no" and pretty much genuine reasons. Thanks to everybody pushing for this approach. 
2) I'm a bit confused about GS' next tech plans - I don't see how they could research Invention without having to research Engineering first (I'm sure noone else has Engineering available for trade at this moment). And quite frankly, I believe that if they decide to go for anything, but Chivalry, they're 100% dead. Chivalry might be the advantage tipping the scales in their favour in the long run... if they survive the first wave of Voxian immos, that is... but if they really go for something else, then... well...
3) If you are impressed by how fast they'd be able to get the next tech if researching at 100%, keep in mind they're in their GA now.
4) Note the line about "their relations souring about 10-15 turns ago". Perhaps something important happened between them at that time?
5) RPers... sigh... even though we cannot be sure whether the information DeepO gives is 100% genuine, I lean towards trusting him. It somehow corresponds with my own feelings and with what other teams (GoW, namely) report on Togas' backstage machinations as well. I do not think we should react in any way ATM, but once Monarchy is paid for, we may wish to consider stopping trading to RPers completely. Considering how popular they are with other teams, they may easily get into isolation (at least tech-wise), ceasing to be any threat to us eventually.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
|
|
OK, here goes the chatlog... enjoy!
Part I
quote:
Session Start: Sun Apr 13 22:07:22 2003
Session Ident: #vino
DeepO: hi vondrack
vondrack: good evening!
redstar1: all the guys might be interested in diplomacy
redstar1: we don't get much of it
alva: Hi von
DeepO: hi everyone!
Sharpe: Hi!
DeepO: welcome, I would say
Kloreep: Hi.
alva: ok, welcome all
DeepO: it's good to see so many interested people from Lego
vondrack: yeah... the last message (the part on RPers) was quite worrying
vondrack: raised interest in our chat
redstar1: well you caught a few of us on, so what the hell
alva: So many people, no wonder you build the pyramids
vondrack: yeah, everybody lent a hand
DeepO: well, first of all, let me say that I'm a few hours behind on the situation
Sharpe: yeah, Vondrack sure used the whips on us for that Pyramids - said something about his burial tomb
alva: again congrats btw
DeepO: I agree
DeepO: quite a feast that must have given
DeepO: however, I don't know if it was good for your international situation
redstar1: yeah, though i looked after the virgins
DeepO:
DeepO: let's start with RP
vondrack: ok
DeepO: I'm not sure how much communication you have gotten the past weeks from them
vondrack: not that much
redstar1: no, RP have been fairly quiet
DeepO: however, the few things we got we're quite troubling
vondrack: actually, you indicated you'd expect us getting "those" messages from RP, too
vondrack: but we do not really get them... ???
DeepO: yeah
DeepO: well, they'll come
vondrack: perhaps
DeepO: most of the times, it's not a good sign when they send those msgs
DeepO: let me explain our situation a little
vondrack: ok, fine
DeepO: before going on with yours
DeepO: Vox: they have been looking for a way to use their immortals
DeepO: and we're pretty sure it was mosly RP that made them come from us
DeepO: then, we got such an unofficial message
DeepO: explaining that there was no incursion of Bob
DeepO: (which we were expecting)
DeepO: later on, we learn that Vox gets paid by RP to enter this war
DeepO: (well, maybe as payment for a tech, but that's just the excuse)
DeepO: and still, RP is very friendly, and asks us about how we are going to take care of Lego
DeepO: which we have no interest in, of course
DeepO: the point is: RP knows that the two isolationists are the biggesst risk to them
DeepO: and are trying everything they can to make us isolated
DeepO: us by getting us in a war
DeepO: which, as we explained to them, is not really a problem
DeepO: we're not going to lose becuase of this war, on the contrary
DeepO: so the moment they figured that out, they have been trying to set GoW, and most likely ND against us
DeepO: they demanded (yes demanded, not asked)
DeepO: that GoW was going to research Feud themselves
DeepO: so no more gold would go to us
DeepO: meanwhile, they're trying to isolate you too
DeepO: so I can only imagine that in the near future, you will find eg GoW not willing to trade with you on a certain tech
DeepO: you then could imagine what it means
DeepO: The problem is, that we will grow through Vox, but with your Pyaramids, you will grow too
DeepO: so I can expect the pressure building the coming weeks
DeepO: watch out...
DeepO: also for the UUs
DeepO: well, that's basically it
redstar1: you are planning to conquer vox?
DeepO: right now?
DeepO: yes
DeepO: we were not a few turns ago
DeepO: but this is an opportunity we can't miss
DeepO: and we were provoked, even attacked into this war
DeepO: so to not lose face, this war will likely continue till either one of us is dead
redstar1: fair enough
DeepO: yeah, but we didn't want it
vondrack: after all that trash talking, that's is very likely )
redstar1: any idea of relative military strength?
DeepO: we were happily sailing beneath the score radar
Sharpe: loved the avatar war
DeepO: me too
DeepO: mil strength: yes, we know the maximum strength of Vox
DeepO: and we're smaller for the moment
DeepO: buut Vox is going to need to have 3 more turns at least before they can attack one of our cities
vondrack: yeah, it's a bit worrying you appear to be the weakest team ATM
DeepO: and at that moment, we'll have more then enough troops
DeepO: maybe.
DeepO: but our empire is the easiest to defend
vondrack: I mean - that's what the Mil Adv says (F3)
DeepO: and upgrades are coming... Vox has nothing left to upgrade
DeepO: I know
vondrack: RPers first, then everybody else, then GS last
DeepO: but its no problem to us
DeepO: yeah... a good thing RP doesn't have boats yet (or at least not many)
DeepO: or they would sail here to get us
alva: One of the reasons we didn' as many units, is that we would always have ample warning
vondrack: yeah, we are also quite sure RPers were neglecting seas
DeepO: Grog was our warning
DeepO: and he did his job splendidly
DeepO: poor Grog
alva:
vondrack:
DeepO: RP and Sea: do you have maps of them?
Sharpe: well now you will have to get a MaGrog
vondrack: yes, we do (map)
DeepO: ah, ok
alva: We will get all his family now
DeepO: I guess Vox has been shopping around
vondrack: ?
DeepO: so you also see they only have one coastal city for now
DeepO: and its on our side
vondrack: yeah, that we know
DeepO: well, what did you think about RP
DeepO: I mean before my msg
vondrack: well, RPers have always been very friendly
vondrack: talked about deals
vondrack: talked about cooperation
DeepO: specific talk about us?
vondrack: nothing at all
DeepO: strange
vondrack: actually, only Bobians were ever involved in their comms, I think
DeepO: I would suspect that they tried to get us against you, and to get you against us too
DeepO: ?
DeepO: I don't understand
vondrack: no, not really...
redstar1: no RP rarely if ever mention 3rd parties in their communications
DeepO: well... it seems to me, that we both have to watch out for them
DeepO: ok
DeepO: well, they don't mention GoW to us
DeepO: but GoW is rather lose when it comes to their diplo contacts
DeepO: so the moment they got something from RP, we knew
DeepO: (I mean last time, because we were chatting with them atm)
DeepO: which was quite handy
vondrack: lose? like sharing info on RPers?
DeepO: as it instantly made them look bad for 2 teams
DeepO: sure
vondrack: aha
DeepO: like quoting messages
DeepO: which we will never do
DeepO: and most other teams don't do either
redstar1: bit of a no no without permission
DeepO: so far simply talking about RP
DeepO: well, it seems to us that RP is really into getting their position safe for the upcoming UU wars
DeepO: after that, they will turn to both of us
DeepO: and we would like to keep them from doing that
DeepO: certainly now that there is a big chance that both us and Lego will grow a lot harder than they can
DeepO: ... which was, in a sense, the initial idea in getting into a tech trade deal for us
DeepO: because we can't be isolated from everyone
vondrack: that's correct
DeepO: we can handle Bob, though, just not Lego too
DeepO: it seems to me, that you are very much in the same situation
DeepO: which makes things possible
redstar1: ahh you percieve us as a threat?
redstar1: hehe
DeepO: no, not military
DeepO: but for winning this game? sure
DeepO: but that's no problem whatsoever
redstar1: well thats nothing new, everyone is in it to win it
Sharpe: winning is a long way off...
DeepO: sure, but not everyone is going to be big enough to do it
alva: all but vox
redstar1: well there is a long long way to go
redstar1: and we would take a long term view on things
DeepO: and RP is right, that these turns are decisive when it comes to growth
DeepO: exactly, as do we
DeepO: which is why we were happily building along, before the war
DeepO: as were you
Sharpe: what is your impression of the Bob map now that you see it?
DeepO: a lot of land
DeepO: and poorly improved
DeepO: plus, there are some serious problems there, between the geographical relation of the threee teams
DeepO: ND is, as they say in Dutch, the sigar
alva: true, I dont think I have ever had a start like GoW
Sharpe: out of curiousity do you see us now too?
DeepO: no exactly
DeepO: we know a bit of your coast
Sharpe: well it is better than their one tile tundra start
DeepO: but did you trade your map, in exchange for the other WM?
vondrack: well, one thing to keep in mind is that all Bobians shared their maps... so GoW & ND know very well that RPers got the best start - that should be likely to make them less inclined to ally with them
Sharpe: no we do not trade maps
vondrack: never
DeepO: ok, good
vondrack: team policy
vondrack: same as yourself, right?
DeepO: we neither, but there is not much to protect, once coastal exploration will have completed
vondrack: oh, that's right
DeepO: our land is small, compared to both you, and Bob
nbarclay: Let's just say it would take a lot more reason than we've had thus far for us to trade it.
DeepO:
DeepO: for us the same
DeepO: but we're not losing wars yet
vondrack: it seems to drive some teams mad when we refuse to trade for our WM...
DeepO: RP complained, yes
vondrack: I guess you met the same reactions...
alva: I don't why btw
DeepO: and they somehow took it as an offense
alva: what's wrong with keeping some FOW??
DeepO: the strange thing is, I can't remember them asking it of us
alva: GoW did
DeepO: yeah
DeepO: so that may have been a RP request
DeepO: more of the things we get from GoW first are 'cleared' with RP, it seems
DeepO: which really is a problem
vondrack: you think they are feeding you with "crafted" info?
alva: not as long long as we it
DeepO: well, anymore someone wants to add to the RP thing?
DeepO: maybe
vondrack: just that we VERY well know
vondrack: how you feel
DeepO: it certainly is a possibility
DeepO: you mean vs RP?
nbarclay: I wonder whether RP has thought of the possibility that if they tug on puppet strings too much, the puppets might start tugging back?
vondrack: I do not think so (re: nathan)
redstar1: they never see childs play?
vondrack: and that is what's scaring me in the ISDG
vondrack: since Togas conducts the diplomacy there in the same way
DeepO: but are the puppets tugging back?
DeepO: I mean, they sometimes have a point
DeepO: and are not afraid to state it
DeepO: like when they asked GoW to don't trade Feud to us
DeepO: or from us
DeepO: they are right of course, it would set us back a lot, if we can't trade it to Bob
DeepO: we already lose money on the deal
Sharpe: wonder how RP is going to be like if they get hold of all those luxuries
DeepO: doesn't matter
DeepO: they shouldn't be allowed to get so far
vondrack: talk about lost money on tech deals... our sour experience with C+C was enough to get the taste
DeepO: that was RP, I'm quite sure
DeepO: but of course, they still kept a friendly face to you
vondrack: yes, they did
DeepO: can you imagine that, even if we understand your concerns, it scares us that you are willing to get Feud elsewhere
DeepO: ?
DeepO: because that too can easily be a RP 'request' for all we care
vondrack: well, for the moment, we are not going to get it anywhere
DeepO: fine
vondrack: since we have no use for it
DeepO: I understand your situation, really.
vondrack: you will not see us having Feu for at least 15 turns
vondrack: probably more
DeepO: well, chivalry will be sooner then 15 turns
vondrack: we hope to make some bundle tech deals later on
vondrack: since we are pushing our way through the Edu branch
DeepO: so watch out, Bob is not going to attack us, if they have any brains left. But Lego, without chivalry...
DeepO: okay, that's fine too
nbarclay: Is there anything we could start working toward with you?
nbarclay: In terms of setting things up for a deal later?
vondrack: right now... well, do you happen to know if anyone researches Engineering?
vondrack: just checking
vondrack: I assume you will go for Chivalry
DeepO: we don't know for sure, no
vondrack: because of the war
DeepO: do you?
DeepO: well... chivalry is not needed to get Vox down
vondrack: yes, it would seem logical?
DeepO: so we're still deciding what to do...
nbarclay: This is strictly confidential, but we may be arranging to get Chivalry from someone else.
vondrack: oh, well... it seems we do not have a clear idea on Voxes' military
DeepO: well, what do you assume on Vox's strength?
alva: How big do you think Vox is?
vondrack: since if I was you, I'd probably play it safe and go for Chiv
nbarclay: In which case there's a good chance Engineering would be a priority for us, especially if we expect to be able to trade it on reasonable terms.
vondrack: re: Vox strength
vondrack: all we know they appear to be stronger than us
DeepO: Chivalry: it's the same thing others have thought about us getting Feud fast
DeepO: but that was not really the reason
DeepO: we can withhold Vox with spears, swords, and WCs
Sharpe: I would say you might get some civs suspicious if you don't get Chivalry in the midst of a war
DeepO: pikes and medinf is simply a plus
DeepO: ?
DeepO: but why?
nbarclay: WC = 2 attack, 20 shields.
DeepO: we are facing a slowmover army, with biggest defense of 2
nbarclay: Knight = 4 attack, 70 shields.
vondrack: hmm... admittedly, Knights are expensive
nbarclay: As long as we don't go up against anything with a defense over 2, it's debatable how much value per shield knights would add.
DeepO: WCs are much more effective in the open ground, while med inf, or swords, cover all slow terrain
Sharpe: that's true re expensive
DeepO: which is all there is to it, really
DeepO: we are planning on swarming them
DeepO: with loads of units we can easily build, and keep building in our GA
DeepO: which they cannot, as they have very few cities left, with no production
alva: and no population
Sharpe: how many cities do Vox have ?
DeepO: let's whip them some more, thinks Vox
vondrack: well, I trust you have the best idea of what you need to make this war go your way... just that when someone says "immortals", it sounds scary...
DeepO: don't you see this on your maps?
DeepO: immortals are no good, if they don't get to attack, and simply need to defend
nbarclay: When you can produce medieval infantry faster than they can produce immortals, it's not nearly so scary.
alva: Vox should have come earlier..
nbarclay: Especially when you can also produce pikes faster than they can produce spears.
DeepO: true
nbarclay: (Not yet, but soon.) |
to be continued...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
|
|
Part II
quote:
vondrack: well, you are perhaps right
vondrack: we are just used to building NMs before granaries, you know
vondrack: the builders, what do you think...
DeepO: do you have maps of Vox, or other ways to watch what is going on?
alva: especially with how our continent is drawn
vondrack: DeepO, we can see only a small part of Voxes' territory
DeepO: ok
DeepO: well, I was right the first time
DeepO: they had, at that moment, 5 cities
DeepO: currently, they have 6
DeepO: and 3 of them are size 1, poprushed
vondrack: hmmm... that must be less than half of what you have
DeepO: 1 is size 3, 2 are size 4
DeepO: yeah, about
DeepO: but only in numbers of cities, we did not whip our population once
vondrack: I wonder... how come they started this war?
vondrack: it seems so uneven
DeepO: RP
DeepO: easy answer
DeepO: and lack of insight in the mil advisor
nbarclay: Also, we showed up as weak on Vox's military advisor.
nbarclay: Of course the advisor doesn't tell you what the enemy can get ready to meet you with by the time you get there.
DeepO: true, but that was not their only problem
alva: no spy satellites yet
DeepO: and frankly, because of Grog, they had very few options
DeepO: they needed to start this war well before a surprise attack could have worked
vondrack: that's right... but still... one would expect a more thoughtful approach to a war that may lead to their extinction
* vondrack shakes his head
DeepO: it was a life or die thing
DeepO: either they can gain from it
alva: the macarthur decoy was nicely setup though
DeepO: or they die, in a blaze of glory, as one of our members called it
DeepO: yeah, they started on this 15 turns ago
DeepO:
vondrack: was the first landing faked, too???
vondrack: I thought it was the second one only...?
DeepO: no, but the turn after, they said to us that they were going to return to Bob
alva: no, that was real
nbarclay: There's a city that almost has to be left over from the first landing.
DeepO: which was never their idea
DeepO: they should have attacked us then, at that moment, the mil adv wasn't lying
vondrack: but they appeared weak at that time, too
vondrack: I am checking the F3 screen quite frequently
DeepO: which gave us a good idea of their strength
vondrack: I am quite sure they did not have the military either
DeepO: we knew, because we were more or less even, how many warriors they had
DeepO: before connecting iron
DeepO: afterwards, only a few could have been build
DeepO: but of course, with a 4 attack value, an immortal is worth more then a swords
DeepO: while the effect can be the same
alva: unless someone supplied them whith lots of workers
DeepO: well, who?
alva: J/K
DeepO: I know
alva:
DeepO: how are your relations with GoW, BTW?
vondrack: quite fine, I'd say
vondrack: good trades
DeepO: they seem to be the most friendly people on Bob
vondrack: they actually helped us to catch up techwise
DeepO: and at least their friendliness is real
DeepO: well, yes, but we offered that too
vondrack: profitable to both sides, but a very fine deal
DeepO: and at fewer expense to you
vondrack: yes, with friendliness, you never know...
vondrack: yes, we'd have difficult times catching up w/o the deal we made with them
vondrack: we'd bleed gold-wise
vondrack: perhaps have to trade our map
vondrack: etc.
DeepO: maybe
vondrack: GoW was great to deal with
DeepO: we offered it for a very limited amount of gold
DeepO: and I'm sure we would have settled to get one tech in return
DeepO: but that's all hindsight
vondrack: the problem was that you were quite far away
DeepO: true
DeepO: the thing is, we know that many times, we don't need an immediate advantage to gain in the long term
vondrack: and we did not want to risk harming our relations with GoW by sailing throug "their" waters
vondrack: so we took the deal
vondrack: yes, that's our approach as well
nbarclay: "A bird in the hand," right?
DeepO: which was good, I think
DeepO: yeah
vondrack: yep, exactly
vondrack: actually, GoW is our closest neighbour
vondrack: so we are trying to maintain good relations
DeepO: we the same, once we take Vox, GoW is only 1 tile away
DeepO: for us, and this has not changed, it's important that Lego grows to be stronger then anyone on Bob
alva: How far is Vox from your west side btw?
vondrack: VERY far
vondrack: like
vondrack: let me check
vondrack: like 1/3-1/4 of the minimap width, I think
vondrack: much farther than Bob
alva: auch
DeepO: Bob is only a few tiles away...
DeepO: has GoW explored even more to your North, in search for iron islands?
alva: looks like we're never gonna invade you then, or vice-versa
DeepO:
DeepO: which was my point: we would gain most if Lego is strong
vondrack: not until Transports
DeepO: as there is no risk military, both could help each other building
vondrack: re: GoW... they seem to be mapping our coast, probably
alva: and serve as a deterent
vondrack: well, we keep an eye out on them
vondrack: so far, they haven't tried to land anywhere
vondrack: but on the Mystery Island
vondrack: that is what they call Baby Bob
DeepO: they are starting on 'our' (as in Vox-GS) coast too
alva: any team attacking one of us, will be weak'ened on the other side
DeepO: Baby Bob is strange
DeepO: what good would it do to them
vondrack: no idea
DeepO: if not strategical?
vondrack: what I especially don't get is why they plopped TWO cities there
DeepO: in that they could use it as a base of support to get to Legoland
DeepO: one hut?
DeepO: was there a hut when you saw it first?
vondrack: yep, there was
DeepO: might explain it...
vondrack: but GoW beat us to it
DeepO: ah, you watched?
DeepO: settler?
vondrack: not really - we explored the coast of Baby Bob before they came there
vondrack: so we can see what's going on there
DeepO: hmmm
vondrack: cities and such
vondrack: and btw, we can still see there hut there, I think
DeepO: one sec
DeepO: I'll check
vondrack: since we were not in the area for quite some time
vondrack: but it's been popped
vondrack: long time ago
vondrack: I am sure
nbarclay: I wonder if maybe GoW forgot about not being able to irrigate without a water source until the industrial age.
DeepO: yeah, the hut is gone
vondrack: I believe they got a tech out of it
DeepO: that would be stupid, I can't believe that
DeepO: (iirr, I mean)
vondrack: Polytheism it was? I think so
Sharpe: That might explain how GoW suddenly offered us Polytheism Vondrack
DeepO: aha, that would explain how that tech got distrubted so fast
DeepO: maybe they are running from ND
vondrack: yes, it coincided with the distribution of Polytheism, as far as I can recall
DeepO: I don't those two teams like each other much
vondrack: ND is a mystery to us
vondrack: we offered them a fine deal
vondrack: yet they turned it down
DeepO: Yeah, they don't talk a lot
Sharpe: wrapped up in an enigma
nbarclay: I think they're a mystery to everyone.
vondrack: hehe
vondrack: yes
vondrack: but they are doing quite well
vondrack: considering how little diplomacy they conduct
alva: Still, settling on Bob counts double from a GOW POV, (gain and denial)
Sharpe: ND's city pattern is quite spherical
DeepO: they're good
DeepO: their cities are using a max of resources, without wasting travel time for their troops
vondrack: I wonder... could it be there is some kind of a border treaty between GoW & ND, forbidding more GoW settlements on Bob?
DeepO: no there isn't
vondrack: this might explain their cities on Baby Bob
vondrack: hmmm... then I truly don't know
redstar1: they didn't want us to get it most likely
redstar1: or anyone else
DeepO: the way I understand it, they warn each other when a settler leaves for a spot, and the other directs its settlers elsewhere
vondrack: perhaps
redstar1: its the lentini factor
DeepO: further, they try to not upset each other
DeepO: by settling too close
vondrack: what language are you speaking now, redstar?
DeepO: which also explains why the former Lux lands aren't settled yet
vondrack: they both probably wait for their UUs
DeepO: yes
DeepO: but where is RP in all of this?
Sharpe: that should be interesting
DeepO: are they going to join one side, to the other?
alva: I wonder what they all are going to do with their UU and GA's
vondrack: hmmm... RPers... you certainly noticed they are not building an empire, but a wall, right?
DeepO: certainly
alva: Expand on BoB, or beyond..
DeepO: but it wouldn't surpise me if they would join with GoW, and divide ND between them
vondrack: I guess they are scared of those UUs...
redstar1: RP have ample land to settle in their south
vondrack: that is quite likely, yes
DeepO: which is also why they fear the both of us: we could easily land beneath their wall
Sharpe: oh are you that close to RP there?
redstar1: would be a great shame if they had pyramids
DeepO: ampple land, certainly. But not if we decide to take up camp there
DeepO: not really, we can't reach it directly
vondrack: along the Vox coast only?
DeepO: yep
DeepO: but still, this would be enough
vondrack: hmmm.. do you happen to have an idea of Vox navy?
DeepO: yeah, well, we know they have at least 2 galleys
DeepO: but not how many they have over that
alva: yep, it sinks very fast
DeepO: and we know they have no harbor, so only regs
DeepO: do you have any more info?
vondrack: ok, that's fine... we are going to be very suspicious towards anyone having more than 5 of them
DeepO:
DeepO: well, doesn't have GoW at least 4 galleys?
vondrack: I can't recall now... have you asked if we are suspicious toward GoW?
vondrack:
vondrack: j/k
redstar1: lol
DeepO: well, I would be, if they settled so close to me
DeepO: but GoW isn't sneaky
DeepO: they are quite brute
DeepO: which is fine, really, you know what you can expect when talking to them
redstar1: well we made no official claim on mystery island, and it is closer to them than us....
vondrack: yes... they made it clear they were determined to get it
vondrack: it did not seem like a reason good enough to go to war with them
DeepO: which is fine, I think GoW needs room to expand more then any other Bob team
vondrack: especially because - as you correctly noted - it is not the best piece of land on this map
DeepO:
DeepO: well, some of our territory would be worse then that
DeepO: but has access to water
vondrack: oops...
DeepO:
nbarclay: And from what little we've seen of it, Lego isn't exactly hurting for land elsewhere.
Sharpe: good land is at a premium
vondrack: with the Pyramids finished now, you can imagine we were not really keen on going to war at that time
DeepO: of course
vondrack: on of our core cities was too busy
DeepO: buut be careful, as other know this too
vondrack: it was sort of a risk
DeepO: it still is
vondrack: you know what is funny?
DeepO: ?
vondrack: it was initially not a Pyramid build
vondrack: but Great Library
DeepO:
DeepO: didn't I ask you that in our first chat? It made a lot of sense
Sharpe: lol, it changed several times actually
vondrack: to make sure we'd be able to catch up
vondrack: but after we did catch up w/o GLib
vondrack: we were looking for something else, preventing a shield waste
DeepO: but as I can tell you from one of our internal PBEM games, the GL is many times too much
vondrack: Pyramids made sense
DeepO: in that it really is a bullseye for other civs
Sharpe: besides we didn't want anyone on Bob to get the Pyramids there
DeepO: or us
vondrack: well, yes... but what other chance we'd have if not crossing the sea so soon?
Sharpe: Bob was much more of a worry with all that land
vondrack: just imagine contacting the rest of the world with a lag of 8 techs... :scary:
DeepO: of course... actually, in the same situation, I would have build the GL, but not build a galley
vondrack: heh... that was our plan
DeepO: and let me be discovered
DeepO:
Sharpe: until we saw Baby Bob...
vondrack: but then Baby Bob appeared
vondrack: until GoW saw it actually
vondrack: we missed it
vondrack: even though we did have a chance to see it
DeepO: hmm... things tend to change quickly in this game, no?
Sharpe: actually Zargon saw it
vondrack: slipped our attention at that time
DeepO: ah, that's unfortunate
vondrack: it was about 15 turns into the game
vondrack: our first warrior got to the Northernmost tip of Legos Major
vondrack: and was actually able to see a tiny bit of coastal waters
DeepO: Do you have any kind of deal with GoW, where they don't settle your lands?
vondrack: no, we do not
DeepO: maybe good to ask them
DeepO: and see their reaction
redstar1: its taken as read i think that we would not appreciate it
vondrack: but we made it very clear we are going to attack anything landing on "our" soil
DeepO: well, that's the same, of course
vondrack: yes
vondrack: and they seem to understand
vondrack: happily sail around us
vondrack: doing nothing bad
vondrack: let's hope it will last
DeepO: I hope it for you
Sharpe: if you have the map of our coast , clearly they are selling their map around
DeepO: well, not necessarily
vondrack: how come?
DeepO: we got our map from Vox, as said with the last payment acknowledged the moment war started
nbarclay: If GoW is the only one sailing around, that's who our information on Lego has to have originated from.
Sharpe: ah interesting
DeepO: we suspect it came from RP
DeepO: which means that the Bobians are exchanging maps
nbarclay: Is anyone besides GoW nosing around your lands?
Sharpe: what do you see of our map? out of curiousity?
vondrack: well, there is one more thing
vondrack: ND established an embassy with us
vondrack: we did not understand why they did it
DeepO: maps: we see as much as GoW had explored, we think up to 7-9 turns ago
Sharpe: any of our cities?
DeepO: so one trail going North
DeepO: you mean your capital
DeepO: ?
Sharpe: oh you see that?
vondrack: btw - can you see our capital on the map?
DeepO: yeah
vondrack: that means ND trade their map around!
vondrack: noone else can see it
DeepO: we could, it would be rather easy
vondrack: noone else established an embassy
DeepO: but you would notice, of course
nbarclay: We see Legopolis and something that at least starts Panama.
vondrack: yes, of course
DeepO: ND: still, we think it came from RP
vondrack: dunno...
DeepO: add to that the GoW map
DeepO: or at least their exploration of your coasts
vondrack: it's a bit too complicated for someone who had a bottle of red wine two hours ago...
DeepO: and you have 3 trading teams
DeepO:
DeepO: I can imagine, I had wine with dinner as well
vondrack:
DeepO: hence the title of this chatroom
vondrack: oh!
DeepO:
vondrack: it is even the same as in Czech!
vondrack: víno
DeepO: well, this was Latin
DeepO: not Dutch |
to be continued...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
|
|
Part III
quote:
DeepO: would it be too much to ask who you got your map from, and when?
vondrack: hehe
vondrack: I think we can tell you
DeepO: great
vondrack: it was actually very funny
Sharpe: hilarious more like
vondrack: few turns after we made contact with GoW
vondrack: ND approached us and offered a contact to you & their world map
vondrack: sent a PM, asked for some gold (50?) and our map
vondrack: we PMed them back, explaining we were not trading our map under any circumstances
vondrack: but we agreed to pay 50 gold for your contact
vondrack: seemed the right thing to do
DeepO:
vondrack: anyway - what I did was I threw in 50 gold and "accepted"
vondrack: sent back
vondrack: sent a PM explaining what it meant
vondrack: expected them to take the map out
vondrack: accept and... you get the idea
DeepO: I hear you coming
DeepO:
vondrack: well, the next turn, we got the save and had their map
vondrack: and a PM
vondrack: explaining their leader made a mistake
vondrack: misunderstanding what it all was about
DeepO: so your is rather outdated when it comes to improvement
vondrack: yes, it is
Sharpe: but we do see the new cities as they pop up
vondrack: we can see cities, but the improvements must be quite outdated
vondrack: on with the story
DeepO: maybe there is some merit in exchanging screenshots of the map of Bob, ours is 2 turns old
vondrack: by chance
DeepO: sure (story going on)
vondrack: we got your contact for free
vondrack: or, rather
vondrack: YOU got it from GoW on that very turn
DeepO: (whiich was also kind of unexpected)
nbarclay: Part of the deal to let them trade you Code of Laws, as I recall.
vondrack: so it all actually ended up that we let them keep the money (for "nothing") and they were ok with us having the map
DeepO:
vondrack: we effectively got the map of Bob for 50 gold
DeepO: 50 gold for a WM is no bad deal at all!
vondrack: now, that was cheap, wasn't it?
vondrack: yes )
nbarclay: Ours cost 95 gold.
nbarclay: And Vox attacked us the moment the sale was completed.
DeepO: which we thought to also be a bargain
DeepO: yeah, those cheats... but they will feel our wrath
vondrack: hm... they must have been desperate for cash, right?
vondrack: I mean... giving their map to you?
vondrack: right before they start a war??
DeepO: the strange thing is, not really
DeepO: we think it was simply to get as much out of our coffers as possible
vondrack: ah, yes, that's the other side of the coin
DeepO: well, we think Vox is still sitting on a kind of large reserve of cash
nbarclay: They probably figured that if the fighting got far enough north for the map to do us much good, they were doomed anyhow.
DeepO: and they can't use it for upgrading, nor for rushin
DeepO: we are rather terrified it would all flow to RP, if they would get down to 1 or 2 cities
vondrack: yes, that makes sense (re: doomed)
DeepO: Ah, Vox...
DeepO: we really liked them, you know
vondrack: hmmm... to RPers... what could be done against it?
DeepO: one thing can be done: trade embargo against them
DeepO: instead of them against us
DeepO: they would feel it very fast
Sharpe: those luxuries will be a problem though if they get them
vondrack: no, I meant something different
DeepO: but we need Bobians in the deal
DeepO: ?
vondrack: I meant - what could be done against RPers getting Vox gold?
DeepO: nothing at all
vondrack: what about saving Voxes? letting them live?
DeepO: We can't run fast enough to get it ourselves
DeepO: No deal
DeepO: they have offended us
vondrack: not an option for you, I understand
vondrack: yes
DeepO: we have screamed from the beginning that we are going to play this game honorably
DeepO: so we can't allow anyone to abuse us
DeepO: so that we lose face
vondrack: I was thinking about something like... letting them save their life... only because of someone's mercy
DeepO: if they find refuge some where else, it's fine
vondrack: much like what they did to Luxes
DeepO: but they will be driven off our continent
nbarclay: If it were me, I don't think I'd want to stay in the game if I had no chance of being even halfway competitive.
DeepO: very true
DeepO: which was one of the reasons why they attacked
nbarclay: I'd rather be conquered and be done with it.
vondrack: hmmm.... that is something I will have to think about
DeepO: are you planning to lose ground soon?
vondrack: nah...
vondrack: I was...
vondrack: it's such a wild idea
vondrack: gimme a sec, please
DeepO: wild ideas are most of the times the best
DeepO: sure
vondrack: see... if the gold flowing to RPers (or anyone else, for that matter) should become a problem
vondrack: it might be possible to jump them to our landmass, much like what they did with Luxes
DeepO: be very cautious with that one
vondrack: we are staying fairly neutral in this war
DeepO: sure, the gold is fine
DeepO: but don't burn your fingers
vondrack: so they might agree
vondrack: we have a peninsula here... Legos Minor - mostly mountains
DeepO: well... we wouldn't mind at all
vondrack: but room enough for about 4 cities
DeepO: (make that 2 if Vox is planning)
vondrack: hehe
vondrack: ok, I will keep that in mind
Sharpe: no irrigation possible there don't forget...
vondrack: and if the need emerges
vondrack: we can discuss that again
DeepO: well, really, we don't mind, but watch out how it will be looked upon by Bob
vondrack: yep, no fresh water
DeepO: and, Vox has a reputation to breaking deals
vondrack: hmmm... that's right
vondrack: as I said - just a wild idea
Sharpe: they wouldn't stand a chance against our mercs...
DeepO: I can only imagine others are wanting to do it too
DeepO: not afraid of immortals, are you
vondrack: saving them?
vondrack: getting the gold?
DeepO: yeah, both
DeepO: but the latter most
nbarclay: Just make sure they don't get iron, or your mercs might not be quite so invulnerable.
vondrack: nah... immos are less than impressive against mercs
vondrack: plus, immos can't swim THAT far
vondrack:
DeepO:
vondrack: swimmortals swim short distance only 
DeepO: well, if they really have a large amount of cash (lets say 500 gold), a lot is possible
DeepO: but you have to be able to take them out, the first moment of trouble
vondrack: sure
DeepO: like Vox did with Lux, only uncalled for
vondrack: yep, I understand
DeepO: Don't put a stigma on yourselves, as Vox has done
DeepO: we were attacked for defending them on more then one occasion
DeepO: and see what has come from that
vondrack: yes...
DeepO: oh well
DeepO: we'll live
DeepO: maybe, in the mean time, just a little deal we could be working on
DeepO: (kind of home work for the coming week)
vondrack: ok, back
DeepO: you shouldn't be able to get theo before next Sunday, right?
DeepO: so, if we can decide what we go for, we should be able to make a deal with you
DeepO: do you have any special requests?
vondrack: no, not that fast
vondrack: unless you stop sitting on the save all the time
DeepO: no chance, we like sitting on it
DeepO:
vondrack: oh, I would never dare to "request" anything
vondrack: I mean
vondrack: ATM, we have no deals signed
DeepO: why not? we would want to hear where you want to go to.
DeepO: we're not RP... we make requests from time to time
vondrack: hehe
DeepO: you told you were going for edu
vondrack: yes, we are
vondrack: actually, the goal is Astronomy
Sharpe: any tech we trade for is one less we have to research of course
nbarclay: The "sitting on a save" phenomenon is what happens when you try to run a war by committee.
DeepO: which would make it logical for us to take the Southern branch
vondrack: to allow trading over sea tiles
vondrack: yes, that sounds logical
DeepO: okay, that's logical too
DeepO:
vondrack:
DeepO: the thing is, we really can't say when, and how we're going to resume research
vondrack: I fully understand
DeepO: but we would hope that around the time you finish Theo, we get to another tech ourselves
DeepO: so that we can trade...
vondrack: that's quite likely, yes
DeepO: (if by that time, you're not bound by an embargo against us)
DeepO:
vondrack: I do not think we are going to participate in any embargoes...
vondrack:
nbarclay: Do we want to sign a treaty that neither of us will agree to any kind of embargo against the other?
DeepO: maybe
DeepO: good idea
redstar1: or if we do it will be like the russian participation in the arms embargo to iraq
nbarclay: LOL
vondrack: I think it would not be a problem
vondrack: or what redstar says, LoL
redstar1: i don't think we would want to go down the road of embargos etc
DeepO: maybe you will need to
redstar1: i don't see how
DeepO: Bob reuniting would be enough
Sharpe: Bob uniting would be a worry for all I would imagine...
redstar1: i don't see how that would force us into an embargo though
DeepO: well, not if there are only 2 teams left
DeepO: we can, together, outresearch Bob
DeepO: and they could, if they want, embargo just one of us, and research him to death
vondrack: yes, 2 vs 3 should work
redstar1: well thats not so much an embargo as a policy statement
DeepO: true
DeepO: but the way things are going, this might turn to that
redstar1: perhaps, but its a long way away
DeepO: it will be very interesting how the UUs do on Bob
DeepO: we should have a good feeling once they have settled
Sharpe: yeah, when they have settled will be a crucial moment
nbarclay: There are really two potential dangers from Bob:
nbarclay: 1) They might unite against the outside world.
nbarclay: 2) One of them might essentially take out the other two, creating an enormous monster.
DeepO: Sharpe, this comes rather soon... only 20-25 turns from now
Sharpe: well for ND and GoW sooner, for RP later than that
DeepO: and Nathan, I agree. 1) would be a problem as they can join forces with the remainder of Vox
vondrack: Nathan, such a monster would be something to attack immediately from both sides
DeepO: and invade either us, or Lego very early
DeepO: monster: true
DeepO: but this is exactly our problem
DeepO: Vox forced us into becoming a monster
DeepO: and your pyramids will grow you into one for free
DeepO: At least, this is how Bob will see us
nbarclay: The funny thing is, even after we conquer Vox, we aren't really huge by Bobian standards. And our land isn't exactly the ideal shape.
vondrack: fortunately, even if Bobians perceive us or you as threat, it will take them some time to get into a position to invade overseas
DeepO: True... but we will be biggest. If Lego doesn't pass us in size
vondrack: size does not really matter... shields and gold do
Sharpe: Right now - are any of the Bob civs bigger than your area? (without Vox)
vondrack: the less territory one needs to protect, the better
DeepO: ah, but both of those are related to amount of pop, and quality of land
vondrack: if it gives gold and shields enough
vondrack: yes, of course
DeepO: Sharpe, in area? yes, I think
DeepO: we have very few land, but we use it well
vondrack: well, guys, do we have any more agenda today?
vondrack: or a summary perhaps?
DeepO: I was thinking the same
DeepO: (agenda, not summary)
vondrack: I guess we talked about everything important
DeepO: true... anything else: never be afraid to ask
vondrack: I do not think so... you are quite a typist, DeepO!
Sharpe: What your iron situation like?
DeepO: I am?
vondrack: you always give out so much info
DeepO: you should have seen me before my accident
DeepO: well... these are my views...
vondrack: typing faster than anyone else
nbarclay: Our iron situation is adequate, but not overflowing.
vondrack: btw, may I ask one question?
DeepO: maybe. I suspect Nathan is faster thought
DeepO: shoot
vondrack: it may sound stupid, but...
nbarclay: Of course it will get a little better when we have Vox's iron.
vondrack: you know, we have two iron sources connected
vondrack: but only one of them shows in the resource summary???
DeepO: ?
DeepO: You mean one used only?
vondrack: and they ARE both connected to the capital
Sharpe: Oh, Vox's iron is that close?
DeepO: not very far
vondrack: well, under the iron icon in the resource box, there is
vondrack: "1"
DeepO: it's outside their borders
vondrack: instead of "2"
DeepO: and in your trade advisor?
Sharpe: hmm, a colony!?
DeepO: yep
DeepO: nice target, no?
nbarclay: Unfortunately, it has jungle protecting it from our WCs.
Sharpe: Indeed, especially with their immos - but probably heavily guarded I would imagine
DeepO: maybe... doesn't matter
DeepO: we only need to raze the closest city, or a road leading to it
nbarclay: Every unit they have guarding their iron is one they can't use on the front lines.
nbarclay: And if we cut their road.
DeepO: and still they think their superiour in strategic position, because they attacked us first...
nbarclay: Well, it's a better strategic position than they'd be in if we knew they were about to attack us.
DeepO: mystery iron
vondrack: sorry... was checking the save for that iron weirdness
DeepO: maybe you don't see it, because you can't trade it?
DeepO: do you have the same problem with dyes, if more then one is connected?
vondrack: nope, I am checking the city screens
nbarclay: Normally, Iron, 1 extra would be ghosted if you can't trade it.
Sharpe: or maybe we were using it for that turn?
vondrack: we do not have iron in the trading screen at all
DeepO: well, but not in a city view
DeepO: that's weird
vondrack: city screen show 1 iron, trade adv. none
DeepO: you're sure you have 2 sources, right?
vondrack: yep, absolutely
vondrack: just that one got connected in two "stages"
nbarclay: What happens when you open the trade screen to another civ?
DeepO: very strange, I have never seen that
vondrack: first to our road network below the jungle
DeepO: vondrack explain?
vondrack: and then when we finally built the road through the jungle
vondrack: to our capital
DeepO: that shouldn't matter
vondrack: I would think so
DeepO: I've done that with rubber on islands lots of times
DeepO: never noticed that problem
vondrack: I thought you might know if there is bug like this?
DeepO: and I was able to trade my last resource to someone else
DeepO: well, never heared of it
DeepO: but we'll ask in GS
vondrack: nevermind... just thought I'd ask
DeepO: maybe Aeson knows, he's most up to date with this kind of thing
DeepO: I'll check, and get back to you
vondrack: ok, thanks
DeepO: anything else?
vondrack: do not put too much effort into this
vondrack: you need to focus elsewhere
DeepO: np, these kind of things are fun too dig through
DeepO: true...
vondrack: I guess it is time to get some sleep now
DeepO: yeah, that's what ai was thinking too
vondrack:
Sharpe: yeah, what is it 1:20 am there?
vondrack: 0:20
DeepO: no, 0:20 for me
Sharpe: hmm only 4 hours ahead now then
DeepO: but still, heavy weekend to recuperate from
Sharpe: oops , nuts 6 hours
vondrack: ok, then, I wish everybody sweet dreams!
DeepO: bye everyone
Sharpe: Night, nice chat!
vondrack: g'night!
DeepO: I'm logging off to
DeepO: too
DeepO: see you
nbarclay: Bye everyone. It's been great chatting.
vondrack: yep, the pleasure was ours
vondrack: bye
Session Close: Mon Apr 14 00:23:06 2003 |
THE END.
Is there any need to comment?
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
vondrack
|
|
Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:26
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
If there's time, you might want to include a bit about the world's second wonder, the Great Lighthouse just completed in the Gathering Storm city of Hurricane. (If the base of the Lighthouse looks oddly similar to the lower portion of the Pyramids, it's not a coincidence.) Lord Nathan, long-time manager of Gathering Storm's economy, was heard saying, "This Great Lighthouse will light our way to victory!" |
Copied this from the public forum.
I assume the announcement is true.
A couple of thougths:
1) We beat GS to the Pyramids! (beats himself in the chest )
2) We beat them approximately by 100 shields, as their build appeared on the wonder screen only on the very last turn (they must have used the 300-shield Palace as a prebuild). They have decided to scrap their wonder build after crossing the 300 shield level, as the build was displayed as The Great Library build on our last turn. They must have changed it to a cheaper wonder (for whatever reason) this turn, wasting some shields...
3) We shall expect being pushed into a dilemma once Voxes take out GS iron, being pressured to provide our iron to GS.
4) GS may be less self-confident than they appear to pose.
I will explain my last two points:
a) GS must have been slightly below 300 accumulated shields when our Pyramids were finished (their build never appeared on the F7-wonder screen before).
b) with the war coming, they decided they were in no position to keep (one of) their most productive city(ies) building a wonder -> thus the switch, making Hurricane available for military production.
c) the following wonders were readily available:
ca) Colossus, 200S - probably seemed to be too much of a shield waste to GS, even though the wonder would be paying back the investment in the form of increased commerce
cb) Great Wall, 200S - same problem, just that this wonder would make their walled cities better protected from the Voxian attacks (I do not expect GS to have too many walled cities, however)
cc) Great Library, 400S - would keep their high-shield city busy for few more turns, would put a bullseye on them, would gain them a little, as we are planning to receive Education in about 20-30 turns - most they could hope for would be getting Engineering, maybe Chivalry & Invention. Shield waste + too much risk.
cd) Oracle, 300S - total waste of shields, as GS has no temples -> zero effect.
ce) Hanging Gardens, 300S - not available, as RPers haven't traded Monarchy to anyone yet.
cf) Great Lighthouse, 300S - increases vessel movement by 1, allows trade over sea tiles (at least IIRC).
Now, the question is: why did GS favor the Great Lighthouse over the Great Wall (building walls would need very little time and bring extra defense against Voxes) or Colossus (extra commerce)? The waste of shields was quite likely not the most important reason, as the shields were more or less wasted anyway, the primary and only goal being Pyramids... There are two reasons I can think of:
I) they want to be the only ones capable of trading with us NOW (or until Astronomy). In case they lose "their" iron (which they apparantly consider likely), they want to be able to get iron from us. This is why I would expect them to start pressuring us for building at least one harbour soon.
II) they plan a surprise seaborne counterattack against Voxes, making good use of their newly acquired ability to sail safely through sea tiles.
Just thought I would point this out and ask if someone can think of another reason...
Either way, we have now one more reason to celebrate - our successful effort with Pyramids and the war with Voxes forced GS to basically waste 300+ shields on a pretty much useless wonder, which I am sure effectively more than balances any advantages GS might have gained over us by using their resources in the most effective way from the very beginning.
Plus, our little wonder switching trick (Palace-wonder-Palace-wonder) worked 1000% better than I would have ever expected!
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:26.
Apolyton Time is 00:26. |
top of page
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
12-04-2003 04:14
|