12-03-2003 04:35									#121
	Re: Clinton and his gang did far more Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 In fact, both Denmark and Finland prasied George Bush in the UN today.

Got a cite on that?

'Cuz there's a big shitstorm in Finnish politics ATM over the implied message of approval sent to the US by the Finnish administration. In fact our prime minister had to backpedal like crazy tonight when questioned by the press, and the foreign minister was spinning like a tornado.

	12-03-2003 04:46									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman dude, that is reason one on a 10 page list. Too many people say one resaon or another isnt a good enough reason for war. Most people fail to grasp the whole picture. This is a very complex situation, with many reasons and all must be considered.

True, it is a complex situation. That's why somehow, I fear the way Bush is handling it, to be honest. Not the war itself, but the projects for post-war Iraq. I doubt it won't induce any trouble in the region.

quote: Originally posted by Kramerman You're talking to a wall, Assman

Well, i could answer you don't seem to change your opinion too...a wall you said ?

	12-03-2003 04:52									#123
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Menlas, It seems to me that there has been quite a lot of discussion on how a post war Iraq would look and what it would need.

It may be that this is not being revealed due to the anticipated "scorched Earth" policy of Saddam's. They would not want to give him a clue ast to what installations or institutions that they would be relying on

Got to admit though, I am curious to see the plan

	12-03-2003 04:56									#124
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What I find so ironic, and I don't mean this at you solely,Menlas; why is this always a Bush thing?
Because he has big enough gonads to step up?
It's a pity that all the U.N. isn't more than just talk.

	12-03-2003 04:59									#125
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things are quite clear in texas arnt they.

	12-03-2003 05:28									#126
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand What I find so ironic, and I don't mean this at you solely,Menlas; why is this always a Bush thing? Because he has big enough gonads to step up? It's a pity that all the U.N. isn't more than just talk.

Indeed it is a pity. As most International bodies go...so goes the UN. So torn by its internal power plays that it sinks into insignificance.

Lawrence: I have been to Texas. Thing are clearer there. (weird...)

	12-03-2003 05:42									#127
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clear like everything else texan huh?

texas justice - string up the nearest minority. thats pretty clear
texas rangers - beat up the nearest minority. thats pretty clear

hmmm im too dumb to see the difference between secular and non secular governments, or the difference between islamic fundamentalists and non fundie muslims. hell, i cant even find them on the map, but someone told me about where they are. well they all look alike and live in the same area, so they are all the same. lets go get em. round up the posse, and ride into town with our six shooter and a fanbelt around you chest.
still like the old west eh? 'the only good indian is a dead indian' looks like its now evolved into 'the only good arab is a dead arab' the more things change the more they stay the same.

meanwhile, i'll just wallow in my own ignorance and stupidity.

yep, things are a lot clearer in texas . . . especially if you're a stupid, racist dumbass.

	12-03-2003 05:42									#128
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Looking out for the One, rather than looking out for the ALL.
Holding people responsible and accountable for their commitments
It's not that difficult. Something is, or it isn't.

Crystal clear.

	12-03-2003 05:54									#129
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quote: I think you understand, but hear me out. Above all, the administration thinks that the status quo in the ME is toxic. You have a lot of unemployed and disenfranchised young men who turn to militant fundamentalism and end up in places like Afghanistan and Chechnya. That's who the 9/11 hijackers were, if you remember reading the personal stories in the Washington Post. The US and UK have had Hussein under their thumbs for 12 years, which reinforces this toxic atmosphere. A huge generation of Iraqis is growing up in poverty due to this fact. Almost anything is better than this status quo.

I know it's a little late, but great post DanS.

	12-03-2003 06:00									#130
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the majority of 9/11 terrorists were Saudi not Iraqi. Good one.

	12-03-2003 06:12									#131
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"Wherever terrorists are found".

Key on that.
I daresay my feelings on the Iraqi population at large, is nothing like your expressed bigotry about Texas at large.
But it's Texans that are rude, bigoted, idiot, dumbasses.

	12-03-2003 06:25									#132
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quote: But it's Texans that are rude, bigoted, idiot, dumbasses.

you got that right

quote: "Wherever terrorists are found".

and guess what? none have been found in Iraq.

quote: I daresay my feelings on the Iraqi population at large, is nothing like your expressed bigotry about Texas at large.

nah, its the same thing. if you cared about them you wouldnt have grouped them all under the same umbrella. by saying that saddam is a radical fundamentalist, you proved that you dont have a clue.

quote: "and Iraqis are not radical muslim. " But Hussein is. He's also a dead man walking.

nope, he's not a radical muslim. but i guess, they are all the same arnt they. in 1991, OBL asked Saudi Arabia if he could go in there with his boys and take out Saddam. Saudi said no.

quote: Semantics. Call him a dead secular dictator walking, then.

riight. semantics. thats like saying the black guy the sheriff caught isnt guilty, but thats semantics

	12-03-2003 06:31									#133
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Hey LOA... why don't you chill with your generalizations of Texans. You can find bigoted people everywhere, that doesn't mean everybody from the same places as the bigots are bigots as well...

	12-03-2003 06:31									#134
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I would argue with you, but I believe you make my argument better than I could.

Thanks.

	12-03-2003 06:36									#135
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No problem

you would argue with me, but since you have nothing to support your argument, you arn't gonna.

	12-03-2003 06:39									#136
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You two better start chilling... or I will chill the both of you...

YOU GOT THAT!

	12-03-2003 06:40									#137
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Ok, Larry.

	12-03-2003 06:41									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia clear like everything else texan huh? texas justice - string up the nearest minority. thats pretty clear texas rangers - beat up the nearest minority. thats pretty clear hmmm im too dumb to see the difference between secular and non secular governments, or the difference between islamic fundamentalists and non fundie muslims. hell, i cant even find them on the map, but someone told me about where they are. well they all look alike and live in the same area, so they are all the same. lets go get em. round up the posse, and ride into town with our six shooter and a fanbelt around you chest. still like the old west eh? 'the only good indian is a dead indian' looks like its now evolved into 'the only good arab is a dead arab' the more things change the more they stay the same. meanwhile, i'll just wallow in my own ignorance and stupidity. yep, things are a lot clearer in texas . . . especially if you're a stupid, racist dumbass.

thats all i have to say about that

	12-03-2003 06:45									#139
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Sorry, Ming.
The last were true cross-posts.
And they were just attempts to fend off attacks.
Should have let it pass entirely.

	12-03-2003 06:47									#140
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i'll wait till you leave ming . . .

	12-03-2003 06:47									#141
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NP...

	12-03-2003 07:53									#142
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Two points here - arab resentment of western-imposed "reform" will be extremely high among the many "have nots" that won't be the beneficiaries of that reform, and arab "gratitude" will be non-existent among many of the groups empowered and legitimized by reforms. Do you honestly think that organized fundamentalist political parties will be grateful to us for setting up a system that allows them to act politically?

MTG, I am trying to understand your point 1. Who are the people who do not benefit from democracy, from a free press, from liberty from politically inspired torture and death?

The only people I can think of are those who want to impose arbitrary government on the people, which may include socialists, communists, and fundamentalists.

As to point 2, I think one of the things we will have to do is model any constitution on the Turkey's - where not only is there separation of church and state, but also, where religious parties are outlawed. There is a fundamental incompatibility between democracy and ultimate control by mullahs.

However, Bush is not talking about detailed post war plans. I suspect these actually will be highly negotiated with the Iraqi's themselves who will be eager to form their own government ASAP.

As to anti-Americanism in Iraq, the only people who will be anti-american are those who are put on trial for abuses of power. Actually, there may be a bloodbath in the immediate days after Saddam's fall as Saddam's victims take revenge. I can still recall the fate of SS troopers who fell into the wrong hand in the closing days of WWII. Saddam's henchmen must fear the same fate.

	12-03-2003 07:56									#143
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Duncan -

quote: Reagan cut taxes under the assumption that that budget would be balanced in the future without tax increases.

Taxes were increased, repeatedly. The payroll tax went from ~1 1/2% to ~6 or 7% (if not more) by the time Reagan left office, and the trend of eliminating write-offs, "loopholes" being closed continued under Reagan. Btw, revenues to the fed rougly doubled under Reagan, it's just that Congress and Reagan ~tripled spending. Getting a pay raise won't balance your checking account if you spend even more money.

quote: So Bush Sr. adn Clinton had to raise taxes otherwise the economy would have been swallowed up by the deficits.

They didn't have to raise taxes, they did because the cowardly 2 parties wouldn't restrain spending and the S&L scam cost us ~1/2 trillion dollars. And contrary to what some liberal pundits claim, it takes more courage to cut spending than raise taxes. The pols just find ways to increase taxes without most of us finding out.

quote: Reagans stupidity pales in comparison to Bush's however. Not only will the tax cuts not cause economic growth, but tax revenues are sure to decrease and and spending on health care and social security will surely increase significantly.

And Congress has no say in expenditures? Even Jack Kennedy significanly reduced taxes because he knew there was a point at which high taxes cause less economic activity and reducing those taxes creates more economic activity.

quote: I would give you at least 20 to 1 odds that any tax cut will one, not balance the budget, and two, taxes are going to be raised so high in the next ten years that it will make a democrat out of you.

Not if spending isn't restrained, you focus on your desire to tax without thinking about spending. Here's a rule about Wash DC, increase taxes and spending will increase because if there's one thing most politicians and bureaucrats can't stand is a surplus of money they haven't spent buying votes.

	12-03-2003 11:01									#144
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Berzerker,

My point is that the tax cuts didn't help the economy the way Republicans claim that it did. You support tax cuts because you believe that it keeps a lid on spending. That's a different issue I believe. I think Chris was saying that the tax cuts were successfull and that neither tax increases or spending cuts were necessary after the tax cuts. Do you support that view? Do you think that the Bush tax cut will balance the budget without any changes in future spending, or are you just figuring that spending will be cut because of the tax cuts?

	12-03-2003 11:10									#145
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Like Berz said Duncan, revenues increased two-fold in the 80s, but spending increased much, much more.

	12-03-2003 11:20									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Like Berz said Duncan, revenues increased two-fold in the 80s, but spending increased much, much more.

And how much of the revenue increase was due to the spending increases?

	12-03-2003 11:22									#147
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btw, i would like to see the source for those figures. i jsut took them as an exaggeration

	12-03-2003 11:37									#148
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Here is one source:

http://www.mackinac.org/article.asp?ID=48

quote: The Reagan tax cuts of 1981 were followed by further reductions in 1986. The top income tax rate was slashed from 70 percent when Reagan took office all the way down to 28 percent in 1986. Yet during the 1980s, tax revenues almost doubled from about $500 billion in 1980 to over $1 trillion in 1990.

... and from a more biased site:

http://www.nationalreview.com/balan...nce081701.shtml

quote: Between 1980 and 1990 the federal tax collections doubled from $500 billion to $1 trillion

And this is some interesting reading as well:

http://www.ncpa.org/studies/s159/s159.html

	12-03-2003 11:48									#149
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I don't know what the abosolute numbers were, but as a precent of GDP it didn't increase too much at all. I don't see how spending could have tripled unless the GDP tripled.

quote: CBO produces estimates of revenues and outlays that adjust for the state of the business cycle. These figures indicate that, adjusted for the state of the business cycle, revenue fell from 19.4 percent of GDP in 1981 to 16.9 percent of GDP in 1986 and 17.3 percent in 1987. Outlays rose from 19.9 percent of GDP in 1981 to 21.7 percent in 1986 and 20.6 percent in 1987. Between 1981 and 1987, revenues fell three times as much as a percentage of GDP as spending increased. (Revenues declines by 2.1 percent of GDP while outlays increased by 0.7 percent of GDP.) These data indicate that the Reagan tax cuts contributed to the budget deficits of the 1980s and early 1990s.

http://www.cbpp.org/2-6-01tax2.htm

	12-03-2003 11:50									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Here is one source: http://www.mackinac.org/article.asp?ID=48 quote: The Reagan tax cuts of 1981 were followed by further reductions in 1986. The top income tax rate was slashed from 70 percent when Reagan took office all the way down to 28 percent in 1986. Yet during the 1980s, tax revenues almost doubled from about $500 billion in 1980 to over $1 trillion in 1990. ... and from a more biased site: http://www.nationalreview.com/balan...nce081701.shtml quote: Between 1980 and 1990 the federal tax collections doubled from $500 billion to $1 trillion And this is some interesting reading as well: http://www.ncpa.org/studies/s159/s159.html

I was speaking more of the spending increases. I acknowledge the tax revenues increased, because taxes were raised.