14-03-2003 09:29									#121
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Boris, he pays $25000 to families of the homicide bombers.

That is claimed by Israel, but it has never been proven, IIRC.

	14-03-2003 09:29									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Sorry, I am not a three year old kid who hasn't gone around the block at least once. Lots of other countries have CBN weapons, GWB has made nothing about them. No threatening noises, no condemnation, not even comments. So what makes Iraq having CBN weapons such a big deal?

17 UNSC resolutions. Two wars of agression. A cease fire agreement where he agreed to destroy them as a condition of ending hostilities.

Which of the other countries you are talking about fit this bill?

Also, I was not trying to insult you with my comment. It seemed that you were negating its importance simply due to the fact that we continually have to remind some that the French are ignoring the realities for the sake of their own power.

	14-03-2003 09:30									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov That is claimed by Israel, but it has never been proven, IIRC.

Has not Sadam made this offer publically?

	14-03-2003 09:33									#124
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north korea is insane. its not like any other place really. they don't neccesarily obey normal rules of diplomacy.

they are ruled completely unilaterally by what amounts to someone w/ the mentality of a child. he will actually not tell diplomats(anecdote from a US source) whether he will meet them or not. as he prefers to make a grand and dramatic entrance w/ music.

	14-03-2003 09:34									#125
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Boris, just checked on no fly zones. You are correct. My apologies.

	14-03-2003 09:35									#126
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Has not Sadam made this offer publically?

I stand corrected, he has. Which is not entirely surprising, given his caliber. While less relevant, the dispute in intelligence seems to be over whether or not Iraq has actually paid anyone, or if it was an empty boast.

In any event, that is not adequate grounds for the U.S. to be marching to war against Iraq. We are not, after all, marching into Palestine to take out Hamas, nor into Saudi Arabia to take out the Sauds.

	14-03-2003 09:36									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Isn't this bit all worn out and torn?

The truth is never worn out UR even if you try hard to hide it...

	14-03-2003 09:37									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I stand corrected, he has. Which is not entirely surprising, given his caliber. While less relevant, the dispute in intelligence seems to be over whether or not Iraq has actually paid anyone, or if it was an empty boast. In any event, that is not adequate grounds for the U.S. to be marching to war against Iraq. We are not, after all, marching into Palestine to take out Hamas, nor into Saudi Arabia to take out the Sauds.

Once again I'll agree that this single reason is not enough. It is this and all the other reasons that make it necessary.

	14-03-2003 09:39									#129
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its totally unjust to bring up the argument that "because we can't simultaneously solve all the worlds problems that we should not solve any."

if u honestly consider this a problem and then follow the logic that cuz we can't apply this over a universal arena therefore we shouldn't bother to apply it ever.

thats really an idea born of civic laws. not of international policy.

not only is it a poor use of logic, but it also observationally untrue w/ a literal ton of events in history.

btw this post was to boris' post.

	14-03-2003 09:48									#130
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon its totally unjust to bring up the argument that "because we can't simultaneously solve all the worlds problems that we should not solve any." if u honestly consider this a problem and then follow the logic that cuz we can't apply this over a universal arena therefore we shouldn't bother to apply it ever. thats really an idea born of civic laws. not of international policy. not only is it a poor use of logic, but it also observationally untrue w/ a literal ton of events in history. btw this post was to boris' post.

You're misinterpreting why such things are brought up. The reason I mentioned the connections of Saudi Arabia to some of the things that have been cited by people as casi belli is because not only are we not doing anything about it, but we're de facto encouraging it by being their allies and friends, because it is convenient for us to do so while we rattle our sabre against Iraq. That is blatant hypocrisy, and it nullifies the moral righteousness of a our cause.

If we want to be taken seriously in finding a regime morally repugnant, we can't hop into bed with regimes that are equally or even more morally repugnant than the one we want to fight.

You brought up the moral justification argument first, so don't whine when it is shown to be a lot of smoke and mirrors.

	14-03-2003 09:49									#131
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Once again I'll agree that this single reason is not enough. It is this and all the other reasons that make it necessary.

Without the crucial one of necessary defense, the others don't matter to me one bit. And I believe the ultimate ramifications of the war will be far more detrimental than maintaining the status quo and applying dimplomatic pressure.

After all, our warmongering has already driven North Korea and Iran to seriously intensify their nuclear efforts out of a sense of self-preservation. When a stupid American president who controls the largest army in the world lumps you in with Iraq in an "Axis of Evil," and then proceeds to make war on Iraq, then the other members of the axis would be foolish not to do whatever they think they could to defend themselves from future U.S. attack.

	14-03-2003 09:53									#132
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Boris: Claiming Israelis are the only ones who know about Saddam giving $25k to terrorist "martyrs is just plain wrong. You are totally misinformed. That was announced on Iraqi State radio and is a clear support of terrorist activities. That said the Saudi government also supports terror by giving government pensions to the families of terrorists who kill Jews.

Also the Iraqi attempt to assassinate Bush Sr. is very well documented. You are the first person I have ever seen attempt to refute it and I believe you are a good man who has failed to understand the difference between the .net history and real world history. The internet is filled with loons spouting off about how the holocaust never happened, how Joe Stalin really didn't kill 25 million people ( :roleeyes: ), and how Saddam never tried to assassinate any one.

Real academic history books and real journalism from reputable publications (not fringe garbage) is what we all should be reading.

Last edited by Oerdin on 14-03-2003 at 11:25

	14-03-2003 09:55									#133
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I dont think we are finding it morally repugnant. nemore than neone in the world can find anything morally repugnant.(considering what the world puts up with).

in the end its true we have both. interests and morals. but almost as importantly so do other ppl, which is why in politics u have to fight for what u get and the end result may look inconsistent. but its only inconsistent by compromise.

are we gna invade a iraq out of some spontaneous outrage of their morality? no. but like I mentioned earlier, we as a country and hopefully a world have been awakened by the abillity of places who harbor this hatred and their ability to inflict damage on us.

	14-03-2003 09:58									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Boris: Claiming Israelis are the only ones who know about Saddam giving $25k to terrorist "martyrs is just plain wrong. You are totally misinformed. That was announced on Iraqi State radio and is a clear support of terrorist activities. That said the Saudi government also supports terror by giving government pensions to the families of terrorists who kill Jews.

I conceded I was wrong on the Iraq point, so you can save the indignation.

quote: Also the Iraqi attempt to assassinate Bush Sr. is very well documented. You are the first person I have ever seen attempt to refute it and I believe you are a good man who has failed to understand the difference between the .net history and real world history. The internet is filled with loons spouting off about how the holocaust never happened, how Joe Stalin really didn't kill 25 million people ( :roleeyes: ), and how Saddam never tried to assassinate any one.

So you prove it. Here is a good source to start:

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/co...930fr_archive02

quote: academic history books and real journalism from reputable publications (not fringe garbage) is what we all should be reading.

So, does the above count as fringe garbage?

	14-03-2003 10:15									#135
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara While I'd love to see Blair go down in flames, perhaps keeping him off-balance is a better strategy for now. As long as the French veto can cause Blair's government to fall, the US can't unilaterally invade Iraq, unless they're willing to toss their allies to the dogs, which will really hurt America's foreign relations.

Well, since there likely won't ever be a vote... Check. Your move.

	14-03-2003 10:20									#136
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Supporting the status quo = extermism
Invading a soverign nation without casus belli = normal

rrrrright...

	14-03-2003 10:21									#137
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erm, that was a response to ned...didn't realize there was a page 7 or I would have quoted it.

	14-03-2003 10:22									#138
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btw: I personally don't consider it terrorism to provide for the families of a suicide bomber after the act. It's not right, but it's not terrorism.

	14-03-2003 10:28									#139
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This isn't about Iraq, this is about stopping the war!

OK, then using this criteria (stopping the war), nothing has really been done. It might be delayed a couple of days.

	14-03-2003 10:29									#140
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quote: Originally posted by orange Drake - good. Go cry. You make no arguments, you regurgitate a few spoon fed propoganada snippits, and tell others that they are wrong with airtight logic like "France is a dumb nation" Just piss off already. Jesus Christ...

He told me that he'd lost respect for me over the last few weeks.

Yes, you have that the right way around.

	14-03-2003 10:33									#141
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quote: Originally posted by orange btw: I personally don't consider it terrorism to provide for the families of a suicide bomber after the act. It's not right, but it's not terrorism.

Yes it is. But it's not even close to sufficient cause to go to war.

	14-03-2003 11:28									#142
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quote: Originally posted by orange Supporting the status quo = extermism Invading a soverign nation without casus belli = normal rrrrright...

I'm sorry, orange, but the extremism is the refusal to consider any proposal at all - even before hearing what it is. France is not bending an inch. This is unreasonable - extreme.

However, I have heard that they are willing to consider a resolution that does not contain an ultimatum and which may be effective in getting Saddam disarmed. This is why Bush and Blair need more time to see what can be worked out.

	14-03-2003 11:36									#143
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Chirac has been most clear. Any resolution which will be effective in forcing Saddam to disarm will be vetoed. This is true because Saddam has proven, over the last twelve years, that he won't comply unless a gun is to his head and the French have obesed with insuring Saddam doesn't have the gun to his head which will force him to pay the penality for his crimes.

	14-03-2003 11:45									#144
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Also, Oerdin, Bush, Blair and Aznar may be manuevering to force France to be the lone no vote. The Russians and Chinese are looking favorably on several alternatives. If those two join the coalition and France stands alone against the resolution, France may abstain. Regardless, there will be implicit endorsement for action as France will be diplomatically isolated.

	14-03-2003 11:56									#145
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There won't ever be a vote. The press clippings to date serve enough to justify ignoring the SC at this point.

	14-03-2003 12:10									#146
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara We'd all like to see Hussein go. It's just that some of us don't think the price should be paid in thousands of Iraqi lives.

Yep. Never mind the tens of thousands of Iraqis who have already died under his rule, it'd be absolutely horrible if thousands more were to die in a U.S.-led invasion that would oust Saddam and his blood, the source of all their damnable suffering for the last 25 years or so. It's better to find a peaceful way to remove Saddam — after all, he's a reasonable man and can be negotiated with. I mean, just disregard all that talk about "fighting to the last baby." He really doesn't mean it. It's for show, nothing more.

Let's give the sanctions another 12 years, except this time we can leave 300,000 troops permanently based near Iraq's border to keep old Saddam "in line," so to speak. I'm sure our esteemed allies in Europe and elsewhere will be more than happy to help chip in and defray the on-going costs to the American taxpayer. After all, it'd be saving the lives of thousands of Iraqis while keeping Saddam's feet to the fire.

Oh, wait. The sanctions are evil, American-inspired shackles on the poor, innocent people of Iraq and their mean-but-tolerable (to the outside world, anyway) leader. Let's lift *all* the sanctions, but keep the troops there. Yeah! The best of both worlds!

I got a quarter. Anyone else wanna chip in? France? Germany? Russia? China? Conservatives? Leftists? Anarchists? C'mon, boys and girls! Step up to the plate. It'll save Iraqi lives!

Gatekeeper

	14-03-2003 14:39									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper the source of all their damnable suffering for the last 25 years or so.

what is really getting under my skin is this "we-kill-you-for-your-own-sake" attitude.

I could deal with a honest "Saddam is a danger - let's get rid of him".

But this BS of "he is a tyrant" or "Iraq is not a democracy" really annoys me!!!!

	14-03-2003 15:11									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Also, Oerdin, Bush, Blair and Aznar may be manuevering to force France to be the lone no vote. The Russians and Chinese are looking favorably on several alternatives. If those two join the coalition and France stands alone against the resolution, France may abstain. Regardless, there will be implicit endorsement for action as France will be diplomatically isolated.

I agree Ned, if Balir can arrange for China and Russia to abstain that leaves france having to veto on their own. Even if they did this Blair could live with that. It really is very easy to have a policy in the UK soley based on the fact that the French are against it.

	14-03-2003 17:42									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Yep. Never mind the tens of thousands of Iraqis who have already died under his rule, ...

Add the hundred thousand civilians that were killed by the United States in Gulf war one and cynical labeled as "collateral damage". A war in Iraq would (and will) make Bush and his poodles tenfold bigger murderers than Saddam ever was. http://www.ippnw.org/CollateralDamage.html

	14-03-2003 18:26									#150
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From the article you linked, Oerdin,

quote: A senior White House official recently told me that one of the seemingly most persuasive elements of the report had been overstated and was essentially incorrect. And none of the Clinton Administration officials I interviewed over a ten-week period this summer claimed that there was any empirical evidence—a "smoking gun"—directly linking Saddam or any of his senior advisers to the alleged assassination attempt. The case against Iraq was, and remains, circumstantial.

So Borris appears to be correct. The alleged assassination attempt against Bush Sr. remains unverified.