13-06-2003 23:58									#451
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Also, I am of the opinion that now would be a very good time to grant that border to CDG. With the way they are throwing settlers around, we really do not want them going further than the 5 tile line, 6 maximum.

hi ,

seconded , they are asking for it , .......

have a nice day

	14-06-2003 04:14									#452
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Also, I am of the opinion that now would be a very good time to grant that border to CDG. With the way they are throwing settlers around, we really do not want them going further than the 5 tile line, 6 maximum.

It would be suicide if they did, in terms of commerce, production, and diplomacy. CDG will not go that far. Giving them the 6 tile border does not hurt us, however.

The reason I don't want to give them the border is that they will try to tie it in with a NAP that requires us to move our screen back. If we can give them the border without them asking for the removal of our screen, then I'm all for it.

	14-06-2003 05:14									#453
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Euclidia want to adjust the border so that they get the Dyes.

We are in chat now, please /join #ApolytonISDG underlord, if you want to participate.

It would appear that GhengisFarb has been driving this move.

E_T

	14-06-2003 07:40									#454
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Euclidia want to adjust the border so that they get the Dyes. We are in chat now, please /join #ApolytonISDG underlord, if you want to participate. It would appear that GhengisFarb has been driving this move. E_T

hi ,

we should get them dyes asap secured , them hills are a great defensive line , ....

have a nice day

	14-06-2003 10:03									#455
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Ok, here's what we got from CDG:

Here's a pic of our famous 7/5 Border agreement with CDG. The blue line represents the border. The Red X marks where we agreed to let CDG build a city that is beyond the border. The city is to be considered "grandfathered" in terms of the agreement.

We agreed to move all of our units to our side of the border, they will do likewise.

We agreed to not settle a city near the Iron to our West (like we could settle a city on a Mountain!) We give the rights of that Iron to CDG.

I suggest that we race to settle the city near the dyes on the coast, as they will likely do so as well, that way we win the battle of cultural border's when they settle that city on the red X. I would like to settle on the dyes or just NW of them, still on the coast.

I need the FAM to submit a proposal for this agreement ASAP. Do we want to attach a NAP with it? Or make it a seperate agreement? Or just go with out one? I think with a border,we need to define what is and what isn't ok concerning the border and unit movements. I also want to leave out any mention of cultural border's in the border agreement. I don't want them to be able to say that it isn't right for us to build a city that ends up pushing back their cultural borders. We can talk about those in a NAP.

EDIT: Per ET's request, I added in blue X's that represent our planned border cities.

Last edited by BigFree on 15-06-2003 at 01:25

	14-06-2003 17:45									#456
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I wouldn't bother negotiating a NAP if they don't bring it up. If we do make sure it has the same loop holes with regards to being voidable if either side engages in acts of agression as before (against any other civ, but they dont need to realize we mean that). Which maybe a good idea if we want them to feel comfortable enough to attack GCA and make it easier for us to take them out. Timing is important though, if we make them that comfortable now, then they may double their city count before we get to republic.

	14-06-2003 22:13									#457
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I don't see why we should allow CDG to build a city over there. Screw them. I'm sending a PM to Louis XXIV to see if we can get them in a chat soon. I want to assess what are their feelings towards CFC and GCA before we actually commit to treaties.

	15-06-2003 00:10									#458
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Ok, here's what we got from CDG: Here's a pic of our famous 7/5 Border agreement with CDG. The blue line represents the border. The Red X marks where we agreed to let CDG build a city that is beyond the border. The city is to be considered "grandfathered" in terms of the agreement. We agreed to move all of our units to our side of the border, they will do likewise. We agreed to not settle a city near the Iron to our West (like we could settle a city on a Mountain!) We give the rights of that Iron to CDG. I suggest that we race to settle the city near the dyes on the coast, as they will likely do so as well, that way we win the battle of cultural border's when they settle that city on the red X. I would like to settle on the dyes or just NW of them, still on the coast. I need the FAM to submit a proposal for this agreement ASAP. Do we want to attach a NAP with it? Or make it a seperate agreement? Or just go with out one? I think with a border,we need to define what is and what isn't ok concerning the border and unit movements. I also want to leave out any mention of cultural border's in the border agreement. I don't want them to be able to say that it isn't right for us to build a city that ends up pushing back their cultural borders. We can talk about those in a NAP.

hi ,

the area of the little red x , should we not put a city there , but closer to them , over the blue line , ......

and there is a great spot near that whale on the land tongue with the dyes , .....

have a nice day

	15-06-2003 00:25									#459
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I don't see why we should allow CDG to build a city over there. Screw them. I'm sending a PM to Louis XXIV to see if we can get them in a chat soon. I want to assess what are their feelings towards CFC and GCA before we actually commit to treaties.

I totally agree. All we have done this whole game diplomacy-wise is bend over backwards to accomodate them. When are we going to stop and make a stand for ourselves? Sure, taking a tough stance might not improve our diplomatic relations, but at least we'll have our pride, as well as knowing we can take them.

Surely when they eventually demand our cities, we aren't going to just hand them over are we?

	15-06-2003 01:00									#460
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We are letting them because it does not interfere with any of our plans. Don't we at least want them to feel a little comfortable with us before we launch our strike against them?

There were many people in this forum who were willing to give them the 6/6 border; guess hwat, that city would then be allowed. We pushed hard for the 7/5 border, with really no huge benefit to us, so to 'give in' on this one city spot is not a big deal at all.

MZ, do not contact CDG about this matter. It is now turn 68, we will have Republic in ~35 turns from now, out attack will follow soon after. We have the situation in our favor, so chill at let them think that things are cool between us. We went them to settle lots of cities in the jungle in the mean time.

	15-06-2003 01:24									#461
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree We are letting them because it does not interfere with any of our plans. Don't we at least want them to feel a little comfortable with us before we launch our strike against them? There were many people in this forum who were willing to give them the 6/6 border; guess hwat, that city would then be allowed. We pushed hard for the 7/5 border, with really no huge benefit to us, so to 'give in' on this one city spot is not a big deal at all. MZ, do not contact CDG about this matter. It is now turn 68, we will have Republic in ~35 turns from now, out attack will follow soon after. We have the situation in our favor, so chill at let them think that things are cool between us. We went them to settle lots of cities in the jungle in the mean time.

hi ,

they must be thinking that we are a bunch of soft boiled eggs , ..... anything they want we let them , .....

they dont care about us but we let them , .....

tell them to take a hike , it shall not yet lead to war , there is plenty of room for them in the other direction to build , .... or do they like us so much they shall build cities next to our capital , ....

have a nice day

	15-06-2003 01:28									#462
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hi ,

the top left planned city ( new blue cross ) is great , the middle one , ... , not sure , ....

that one should be build asap

the next one should go in the line of the red X , at least one below the blue line , ....

have a nice day

	15-06-2003 05:15									#463
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ok, I haven't received anything from Louis XXIV anyway...

GhengisFarb seems to have suddenly become more active in CDG affairs as of late. Perhaps I'll get something "informal" from him during a GoW chat...

	15-06-2003 05:27									#464
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Going into this negotiation our intention was to ask for 7 tiles and settle on 6 if necessary.

I hate being accomodating as much as any of you, but the needs of our long term strategy dictate that we remain friendly and give them very few reasons to be suspicious about us. We need them to believe that we are trying to hold onto enough land to safely and carefully grow our happy empire, and we also need them to believe that we are somewhat fearful/in awe of them due to their "brilliant" and agressive tactics. This will reinforce in them that they are doing something right, and encourage them to keep behaving in this fashion.

Fighting with them too much breeds hostiliy and distrust. Giving in too easily breeds concept and possible suspicion. We have been trying to find the perfect balance and I believe we have with this deal.

We fought hard and gave them a single tile as a concession. And with the cultural issue -- if your culture takes land, it's yours -- they have an incentive to REX like mad to steal more land from us ... this will cause them NOT to focus on production or improvement, and not to build a lot of Immortals

I will draft the agreement and send it out today. We will include the border WITH the previous NAP that was already agreed upon. We will, of course, include the loophole and just pray that they don't trigger it soon by attacking GC.

--Togas

	15-06-2003 05:31									#465
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I think BigFree, Togas, and the FAM gang have done very well for us in this.

	15-06-2003 06:03									#466
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draft of NAP with CDG:

APOLYTONIA AND ELUCIDIA HEREBY AGREE:

That there shall be peace between our nations and sign this agreement with the intention of maintaining friendly and beneficial relations. We hereby promise:

That neither party shall commit any hostile acts for the duration of this agreement.

Hostile acts include, but are not limited to: Attacking any unit, capturing a worker, entering cultural borders without permission, remaining inside cultural borders without permission, pillaging a road or improvements.

Both parties agree to respect the cultural borders and the agreed upon border between us. Neither party will enter or cross into the borders of the other without permission.

We agree that the border between us shall be a line that runs along the NE edge of Cuido de Alcohol, going NW and SE until it hits the water, with the exception of the tile that is SE, SE, E of the city, on the coast (It is also NE, NE of the Elucidian coastal dye). That tile shall also initially belong to Elucidia.

However, given the natural of the shifting of Cultural Borders, should the cultural borders of either party include land on the other side of this border, that land shall be "taken over by culture" and shall lawfully belong to the nation who's culture has captured it. Cultural Borders supercede the agreed upon border.

Upon the ratification of this treaty, all units within the borders of the other nation shall immediately be moved to their side using a direct route.

Any violation of this treaty by one party allows the other party to void the treaty and report the offending party to the UN.

This treaty shall last 30 turns after it is ratified by both parties.

--Togas

	15-06-2003 12:20									#467
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quote: Originally posted by Togas draft of NAP with CDG: APOLYTONIA AND ELUCIDIA HEREBY AGREE: That there shall be peace between our nations and sign this agreement with the intention of maintaining friendly and beneficial relations. We hereby promise: That neither party shall commit any hostile acts for the duration of this agreement. Hostile acts include, but are not limited to: Attacking any unit, capturing a worker, entering cultural borders without permission, remaining inside cultural borders without permission, pillaging a road or improvements. Both parties agree to respect the cultural borders and the agreed upon border between us. Neither party will enter or cross into the borders of the other without permission. We agree that the border between us shall be a line that runs along the NE edge of Cuido de Alcohol, going NW and SE until it hits the water, with the exception of the tile that is SE, SE, E of the city, on the coast (It is also NE, NE of the Elucidian coastal dye). That tile shall also initially belong to Elucidia. However, given the natural of the shifting of Cultural Borders, should the cultural borders of either party include land on the other side of this border, that land shall be "taken over by culture" and shall lawfully belong to the nation who's culture has captured it. Cultural Borders supercede the agreed upon border. Upon the ratification of this treaty, all units within the borders of the other nation shall immediately be moved and allowed to be moved by the other team, to their side of the border using the most direct route. If the only route inludes traversing through another teams cultural borders, it shall be allowed by the other team. If a team wants another team to follow a specific route, then they may request it, but it must be as close to a direct route as reasonably possible. Any violation of this treaty by one party allows the other party to void the treaty and report the offending party to the UN. This treaty shall last 30 turns after it is ratified by both parties. --Togas

I would just change this one part so that it is clear that they have to let our units get back to our side of the border. And that if outr units have to travel through their cultural borders, because that is the only way, then it shall allowed by their team.

	15-06-2003 22:44									#468
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hi ,

, only 30 turns , could this be made for at least 50 , .....

have a nice day

	16-06-2003 00:07									#469
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Given that war is going to break out sooner rather than later between CFC and GCA.... I think we should just give them the settlement agreement and hold the NAP back for now. An NAP is likely to make them feel secure enough to attack GCA with CFC and honestly I'm not sure if we want that this early or not.

Instead I think we should stall on the NAP until we get some idea on who is winning in the south, and if GCA is winning (we can tell from the city list in diplomacy), then we will likely want to give CDG the green light to jump in (preferably about 10-15 turns before we are ready to move on them)

In any case, I think NAP with CDG is one card we should wait and play for when it has the most impact.

With regards the war otherwise, I think we should expressely state our intentions of remaining neutral. It will hurt our relations with CFC somewhat, but GCA is a more important trading partner at this time anyways. We can simply tell CFC that we don't have the ability to help them at this time due to distance and the state of our own army as a defensive force.

	16-06-2003 03:21									#470
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Adding to what wervdon said:
Using the loophole clause could get us in trouble. As soon as CDG might attack GCA, we can void the entire treaty. I think it would be a good idea to void the NAP, but we might want to keep the border and thus make it a separate treaty to keep them calm.

	16-06-2003 03:32									#471
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If we void the NAP and attack them, we're definately voiding the border too.

What we have to understand is that the border itself is a condition that CDG asked for before signing the NAP. We were happy to give them a NAP with our loophole in it, and they were happy with it, so long as we agreed on a border.

What is surprising is the horrible timing of this agreement with GC's breakdown with CFC. This agreement could give CDG additional confidence to strike GC.

I have not sent it out. I'll send it out Monday most likely. Doesn't hurt us to sit on it for a turn to see what CDG does about the brewing southern war. If anyone from CDG asks about it, tell them that we're debating redrafting the agreement and that it has to first get team approval before it can be sent out.

--Togas

	16-06-2003 07:09									#472
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I have agreed to the NAP as modified by BigFree with CDG. The length was increased to 40 turns at CDG's insistence, and after discussion in our chat room. MasterZen took the lead in our discussions with CDG with myself present.

This was a time critical issue. I took it upon myself to finalise the treaty negotiated by BigFree and Togas so that CDG could give CFC the assurances they need. To delay any longer would have cast us in a suspicious light from CDG's POV.

	16-06-2003 07:10									#473
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ok, unexpected turn of events.

We had a chat with both CFC and CDG regarding the situation with GCA. You should see the chat log shortly posted. Basically we tried convincing CFC to give in a little to avoid the war, Octavian seemed to be receptive and understanding, hopefully he will try and calm the hawks and try and get this through a peaceful solution (like we really care...).

Anyway, because of this meeting and CDG's likely joining an alliance with CFC, they insisted on the NAP. They pushed for a 40 turn NAP to watch their back. Basically, neither nye nor myself felt this to be necessarily against our interests so after debating the issue for a while, agreed to it.

We put the draft agreement of Togas on the table as is, with the 30 turns turning into 40 turns. However, I purposely ommited the "extra tile" they were supposed to get from the treaty, they officially agreed to the following proposal.

quote: APOLYTONIA AND ELUCIDIA HEREBY AGREE: That there shall be peace between our nations and sign this agreement with the intention of maintaining friendly and beneficial relations. We hereby promise: That neither party shall commit any hostile acts for the duration of this agreement. Hostile acts include, but are not limited to: Attacking any unit, capturing a worker, entering cultural borders without permission, remaining inside cultural borders without permission, pillaging a road or improvements. Both parties agree to respect the cultural borders and the agreed upon border between us. Neither party will enter or cross into the borders of the other without permission. We agree that the border between us shall be a line that runs along the NE edge of Cuido de Alcohol, going NW and SE until it hits the water. However, given the natural of the shifting of Cultural Borders, should the cultural borders of either party include land on the other side of this border, that land shall be "taken over by culture" and shall lawfully belong to the nation who's culture has captured it. Cultural Borders supercede the agreed upon border. Upon the ratification of this treaty, all units within the borders of the other nation shall immediately be moved and allowed to be moved by the other team, to their side of the border using the most direct route. If the only route inludes traversing through another teams cultural borders, it shall be allowed by the other team. If a team wants another team to follow a specific route, then they may request it, but it must be as close to a direct route as reasonably possible. Any violation of this treaty by one party allows the other party to void the treaty and report the offending party to the UN. This treaty shall last 40 turns after it is ratified by both parties.

regarding the extra tile, as I said, it was done purposely to see if they would let it slip. They did fall for it. If they bring up the issue again, we will of course simply say that the text was copied from an earlier draft before those negotiations take place. Just me messing with their heads to see their reaction... no harm will be done. In the meantime however, this deal is agreed upon by CDG.

-MZ

	16-06-2003 07:13									#474
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I have agreed to the NAP as modified by BigFree with CDG. The length was increased to 40 turns at CDG's insistence, and after discussion in our chat room. MasterZen took the lead in our discussions with CDG with myself present. This was a time critical issue. I took it upon myself to finalise the treaty negotiated by BigFree and Togas so that CDG could give CFC the assurances they need. To delay any longer would have cast us in a suspicious light from CDG's POV.

yes, for the record, the deal was signed only after nye and myself agreed to it and after receiving input from all other team members present which were E_T, werdvon, and OPD.

Another reasoning we had over the 40 turns was that since we are getting Republic in less than that, we would might have probably been under pressure to re-negotiate a NAP after it expired. It is much easier to delay, say 5-6 turns as the NAP stands (compared to the war turn) than delay 15-16 if the NAP were at 30.

	16-06-2003 09:50									#475
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Awesome, we now have our loophole!!

As soon as CDG settles a City accoss the border, they are violating the agreement and the deal is void at that time. Only we don't tell them that it is void until they see our units crossing the already voided border!

If they agreed to this, officially, then we do not ever have to give in to their demands that we add that one tile back in. If they wish to break the agreement, we simply tell them that the agreement would be on file with the UN and they would take a rep hit because of it!

	17-06-2003 04:19									#476
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Awesome, we now have our loophole!! As soon as CDG settles a City accoss the border, they are violating the agreement and the deal is void at that time. Only we don't tell them that it is void until they see our units crossing the already voided border! If they agreed to this, officially, then we do not ever have to give in to their demands that we add that one tile back in. If they wish to break the agreement, we simply tell them that the agreement would be on file with the UN and they would take a rep hit because of it!

hi ,

, they shall try to do so , they shall want to find out just how far they can push us , ......

but , be carefull , they are not that stupid , they shall probably look at our actions and for the firts number of turns see what we shall do , we should at time act as our nose is bleeding , ..... a couple turns later , .....

have a nice day

	27-06-2003 08:45									#477
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Kentonio resigned as leader of CDG, we still don't know why. If anyone has any inside information or sources, please do what you can to find out who's running the show over there. It took them nearly 2 days to play the save but finally it was sent to us.

Also note, we're currently working on a new tech deal with CDG as they offered us Math + Philo on this turn and we sent them MM as agreed.

Some ideas we're floating around include CoL + HBR for Currency.

--Togas

	27-06-2003 08:52									#478
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I PMed CDG two different trade options:

1) CoL + HBR for Currency
2) CoL for Literature

I will post their reply (which knowing CDG will probably take awhile...)

	27-06-2003 12:14									#479
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I think it was a partial cover for a war on GCA or an impending one. There is some news about it here though:

http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/c...opic.php?t=3429

http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/c...opic.php?t=3452

	27-06-2003 12:40									#480
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Agreed, it does sound like a cover-up of some sort... otherwise, why would it be in a public forum?