16-05-2003 04:28									#361
	"nice" Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by panag hi , fine let them , .... we name our prize , they dont like it , fine , they go somewhere else , ...... we should not be asking the ones who need the tech "what are you willing to pay for it" , ... they wont do the same with us , .... we are way to good have a nice day

But the thing is, if we don't be nice, then we lose ALL possible hope of trades.

Would you rather lose all possible hope of a trade and get nothing for a tech, or at least get something for it, even if it's a "measly" 20 gold?

	16-05-2003 04:32									#362
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Dealing is not easy, its actually an art. You have to offer a high enough price for it to be acceptable to you but low enough not to offend them. It has to be higher though because it is natural to expect them to possibly reject the initial deal, not because they don't find it fair but because they see it as a chance to get a lower price. Thus, despite economic theory which says that bartering will lead to an equilibrium point, this is not true since you assume people are perfect negotiators, which they are not. So, honestly 65 is an absurdly high price. Anything over 30 is ridiculous. I would to 25 and drop it in 5 turn increments. (hooray, I'm back! thank you BH!)

hi ,

look a no we have , a yes we can get , ......

they still dont have it , .... so why not try and see what happens , .....

example > we ask 50 if they say no we say we have to talk to our people , we try at 40 , some sirop around it , bang they buy it , ..... nothing below 35 (!)


we should be asking what they want to pay for it , .... we should be telling them what we want for it , .....

or they can have it for 25 , but with lets say a non agression pact for 40 turns ( yes 40 )

just 25 gold is way to low , .... think of those temples (!)

have a nice day

	16-05-2003 04:36									#363
	Re: "nice" Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit But the thing is, if we don't be nice, then we lose ALL possible hope of trades. Would you rather lose all possible hope of a trade and get nothing for a tech, or at least get something for it, even if it's a "measly" 20 gold?

hi ,

( the first thing that comes to mind ) > are we then that desperate , ......

they are having a field day with this , .....

what if we sell or trade now and a bit later down the road the say no , the we are still alone , ..... and they got away with a couple cheap deals , ......

we should under no circumstances whatsoever portray our selfs as " weak " , .....

have a nice day or night

	16-05-2003 05:00									#364
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Well, as for the CB price... Would WE buy it for 25g or even more? With the nominal research cost of 48 beakers (=gold), now even cheaper? When we talked to GCA about buying CB, we were looking for like 20g. So I would either start on 25g (max), happily going down to 20, even 15 or 10... OR - and that would actually be my preference - offer it and ask them what they'd be willing to pay or trade for it. Remember the situation with Alphabet and CFC? They said they had only 20g to spend on Alphabet. We said it was too little for such a valuable tech and did not go for it. Within 2 turns, CFC acquired Alphabet somewhere else (quite likely using our offer to press the seller a bit). If we sold it for 20g they sort of offered, we would be 20g richer now and they'd think they made a great, fast deal with Apolyton... instead, we let them get it from another source. With "obsolete" techs available from multiple sources, I guess getting at least something, even if it is just few gold pieces and an improvement in mutual relations, is better than "helping the world keep the right prices", getting nothing.

Reminds me of what happened wit Lux and ND (mansonry). To this day I dont know if they popped a hut like they said they did,, or they traded with GoW. I always suspected it was Legoland instead (I suspected they traded w/ industrious nation but there was 4 industrious including lux in ptw).


Theres always the "Hey I'll accept this great offer for ya, just remember our kindness next time" approach. It didnt work with Vox (we had disputes over whether the deal was fair or not later but with that exception, it may ease us into making a deal when CDG is at our position (with us offering little to trade).

	16-05-2003 15:30									#365
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

NAT questions answered and Tech Trade Proposal sent to CDG. Read them here.

	16-05-2003 16:24									#366
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , look a no we have , a yes we can get , ...... they still dont have it , .... so why not try and see what happens , ..... example > we ask 50 if they say no we say we have to talk to our people , we try at 40 , some sirop around it , bang they buy it , ..... nothing below 35 (!) we should be asking what they want to pay for it , .... we should be telling them what we want for it , ..... or they can have it for 25 , but with lets say a non agression pact for 40 turns ( yes 40 ) just 25 gold is way to low , .... think of those temples (!) have a nice day

Something about this post reminds me of an anti-drug message that circulated on TV in the 80's....

1) If we say no, they WILL get it elsewhere. It's a first-tier tech for crying out loud. They're probably one of two Civs left that don't have it yet. Saying "Fine, let them get it elsewhere" is a lot like a hotdog vendor saying "NO, I won't lower my price from 4 dollars even though there's six hot dog vendors on this street, 5 of which price lower than me. If you don't like it, go see them!" That guy will be poor, have a lot of hot dogs, and be out of business shortly. The other guy isn't desperate, he's a savvy businessman who will make a buck-fifty while the 4-dollar-dog guy is picking lint out of his bellybutton.

2) How in the world do you percieve an offer of Ceremonial Burial for 25 as "weak?" "Hey look, that guy's offering hot dogs for a buck-fifty. I'm going to go kick his ass." There's just no logic there; none at all. We're not desperate- they can look at our score or military might relative to them and see we're just fine.

3) If we play price games with them and play "We'll get back to you" games, they'll get back to us with "We got it elsewhere." Their immediate neighbor to the south STARTED with this tech. (It may in fact be a hint of the relations between the two that CDG doesn't have it yet.... ) We KNOW that several other Civs have this tech, as well. Someone IS going to sell it to them, and the longer time goes by, the more CDG will be able to seek a lower bidder as more options open up.

4) Why in the WORLD do you think Ceremonial Burial is worth so much? What mod on Temples are you running at home? In case you missed it: 1 unhappy person is made content, 1 maintenance per turn, 2 culture. Are you afraid of them unleashing an awesome culture-flip assault on GCA? Of having their huge cities work all the tiles around them? Reality check, please. That's India to their south, and even if the tiles around CDG's cities weren't trash, they're all still too small to work the tiles. More land area? Weeeee. At the risk of bringing on the Apocalypse, I'll use this to strengthen my own argument: This isn't an internet MP game where points matter.

5) So what if they get away with a cheap deal here? On Ceremonial Burial? EGODS, they can build nukes now, flee, flee! If we get a reputation for being overly generous - which we won't, since Ceremonial Burial is a first tier tech that most folks have already then people are more likely to leave us alone. That's not a bad thing either.

6) The time we waste with this ridiculous debate is very possibly going to be the time we lose out on our chance to make 20-30 gold (or whatever they want to offer, which is also a reasonable way to play it) to someone else.

Here's a recap of the simple facts:

CDG WILL get that tech from someone, and probably very soon.
Someone WILL be willing to sell them that tech cheaply.
We DO have the opportunity now.
If someone's going to get CDG's money, it should be us. It might even direct that Immortal SOD that will come eventually.... the other way!

Let's end this really silly debate and just send the friggin offer over, before GCA comes to their senses and GIVES it to them, as incentive to attack north?!

	16-05-2003 17:39									#367
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

F-P, your efforts are ultimately futile, but very fun to read...

We have already sent CDG a proposal few hours ago. Since the tech deal we're talking about now (MM=12 for Math+Philosophy=8+6=14) is weighted by 2 points in our favour... while CDG sort of "owes" us 1 point from the former IW/WC+Wheel deal, we mentioned we were aware of that and willing to incorporate Ceremonial Burial somehow in, if they're interested.

As including CB in the deal would make the total balance 1 point in our favour again, I hope CDG will offer some "token" gold sum to acknowledge the fact - like 10g, maybe (1/4 of the nominal CB price, 1/2 of the nominal price "owed"). As 10g may be pretty much the market value of CB now, it would be nice to get that much gold (even if it's just 5g...) while balancing the MM for Math+Philo deal so that they go for it.

I fully agree we shall sell or otherwise trade CB to CDG ASAP; we can't lose anything at all, even if we give it for free... using it to balance another, much more important tech trade or getting few gold pieces would be nice. And F-P's point about easy trading partners being the last ones one targets with his military is also to be kept in mind - especially as the "difficult" trading partner in this case might be GCA.

	16-05-2003 18:36									#368
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I dont expect CDG to not act according to whats more efficient, but if we are lenient on this deal, they may even develop some loyalty for the favor we did them, Maybe when we have polytheism to offer, they will likely trade with us, even though another team is selling it for tad cheaper.

Good relations can be priceless (or worth jack, but...)

	16-05-2003 19:14									#369
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hi ,

you know whats so funny MZ , the neighbor that started with it , ..... and they still dont have it , ....

why us , .... an other Q , ...

CB , well its not the fact that a temple is good for your people , its the culture , ....

maybe they wanted it from them for one gold , ....

anyway , if we make a deal about it we should get something more out of it , if it aint 1 gold a turn and 25 on delivery then at least some type of other agreement , .....

since other teams seems to have made deals with each other , could we engage in them for a long term relation ship , .....

could this be the start of a mutual agreement , ...

or would they show us a back when we are in need , .....

could have , should have , ..... we ought to cut it and make a deal , one way or the other , the future shall only tell us , ......

have a nice day

	17-05-2003 05:03									#370
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Response from CDG to latest proposals:

quote: Ambassador, In your last message, you spoke of the desire for continued cooperation between our two nations. We would like to take the first step. We agree to the Trade Deal that you proposed. We will even wave the extra point difference as a sign of good will. However, the need for a perminant border is very much a priority for our national security and interests. There are certain places, which, do to the proximity to our border, we already consider to be part of our territory. No doubt there are some locations that you feel the same about, near Apolytonia. We need to guarantee that these areas remain under our control. This border must cross completely from one side to the other, and not simply surround our cultural border. It should also corespond with the "settler line", similar to what previously existed (whether this border be 5 squares from the capital or 6 is trivial, but a definant border must be agreed to). All units will remain on their own side of the border, and not cross into the other side. I hope the Apolytonian Government will take into account these considerations of ours in our continued friendship and mutual prosperity. Sicerely, Ambassador Louis XXIV Elucidian Foreign Ministry

	17-05-2003 05:18									#371
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Ask them to submit their border proposal by jpg map.

It does not hurt to say we will look at it and get back to them.

	17-05-2003 06:10									#372
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Agree with Enamel. Some thoughts just came together in my head...


We know CDG and GCA have been right next to each other all game long. Now GCA has jammed a city right up in CDG's face. We know that CDG is getting Ceremonial Burial from us- AND GCA STARTED WITH IT. Do we know for sure that GCA even got Iron Working from CDG? They haven't bothered to acquire that iron right outside their territory, that we can see.

Now CDG is making overtures of long peace to us and even taking a small, but nontheless noted by them, first step. It's not unreasonable that they want some sort of claim to the land north of them, since they have NOTHING available in any other direction. Further, they're asking for a no-unit-tresspass agreement, too. That means they REALLY want to consider that border safe and un-endangered.

I think CDG is preparing for war alright..... but I think they're going south.

I would reccomend we be equally magnanimous and friendly back to CDG right now, and who knows, maybe we could even let them know we're rooting for them somehow.

After all, the more territory they get from GCA, the more we can take away later.

Let's return this friendly gesture by them with equal warmth. This might be the diplomatic turning point that makes them go where we want them to go....

	17-05-2003 07:16									#373
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Umm.... no map interchanges until MM

More than a peaceful intention, I take CDG as perhaps trying to secure their backs in case they decide to strike south. See, teams don't change attitudes without a reason, so there's a reason for this re-approachment. Problem is to identify it as a ruse, or a genuine intention of long-term friendship.

Honestly I think both are equally possible so I suggest we reciprocate with friendship, but we prepare for the unexpected.

As for border deal, I think that perhaps we must still insist (chat?) on something that is not a fixed border but perhaps settling in the end for a 6 or 7 tile border. Honestly I'm not too much a fan of fixed borders, it is an excuse for them to not get us to out-REX them and that is unacceptable to us, so why should we accede to it so easily at least?

	17-05-2003 07:55									#374
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The border can be one of two things.

A point of mutual friendship, where we try to work with each other to get the agreement done.

A point which will greatly antagonize relations ("no, we won't put the border behind this line" back and forth on both sides).

At this point, I believe the only chance at good relations with them is to negotiate a "fair" border.

That does not mean I don't see a double-cross coming, or that I agree with a border, but that's just how I view the situation.

If we want to remain on good terms with CDG then we will eventually have to negotiate a border. If not, then we give them a powerful reason to turn their Immortals north.

	17-05-2003 08:04									#375
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A five tile border preserves most of the usefulness of the screen. I see no problem with it.

	17-05-2003 08:06									#376
	Inflate your Upload Space

If we agree to any sort of border I suggest that they allow our Warrior to pass to the other continent where CFC resides.

	17-05-2003 12:44									#377
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither A five tile border preserves most of the usefulness of the screen. I see no problem with it.

They agreed to go with the 6 tile Settling line, and is ok with place the "permanent" border there as well. We could just write into the proposal: "APO and CDG shall have a clear and defined border agreement with line that runs from the NorthWest to the SouthEast on a diagonal 6 tiles North East of CDG's Capitol which is also 6 tiles SouthWest of APO's Capitol; with no units crossing this border without permission from the other team."

We specifiacally don't mention about this being permanent; instaed we leave it as is and when the agreemnt runs out; poof..the border is gone. They may not fall for this, but it's worth a shot.

BTW, I'm against agreeing to a Border with them at all. it has been our stated goal to tyr and out REX them from the begining. Giving them a permanent border agreement takes away from some of that advanteage we are to try and maintain. This advantage won't be lost right now or in the next 50 turns, but would be felt later in the game. Unless we are ok with either breaking this agreement and taking the rep hit OR we know that CDG will attack us, thus negating the agreement, then I'm against giving in to them on this one.

I'm with F-P on this one when he says that CDG is just looking to have it's back covered when they attack GCA. They will have to vacate their position on the Iron regardless when we settle "IronCity" if they agree to any NAT with us that says that they cannot be inside of our cultural borders.

Let's wait and see what they do. I'm confident that GCA is their target, hence a NAT will be what they want from us. I do not feel that they will drop the whole NAT over this issue; rather they are using "Morris guarding our Iron" as a barganing chip to get some relief for them on both the impemnding attack on GCA and their perception that we will be able to out REX them.

quote: Originally posted by Trip If we agree to any sort of border I suggest that they allow our Warrior to pass to the other continent where CFC resides.

If everyone decides against what I'm proposing, then this is the minimum I'd expect from them.


We need to explain to them that we feel that we can out REX them. Let's be plain and honest about this to them, so that they will see our point and have to discuss it in the open even if they already know it. It forces them to offer concessions to us regarding the fact that since we can out REX them it isn't in out best interest to limit ourselves with border's at this time.

Also, we should ask something about us getting their WM for our TM, since we are giving up more to them than they are giving up to us.

	17-05-2003 12:59									#378
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by BigFree They agreed to go with the 6 tile Settling line, and is ok with place the "permanent" border there as well. We could just write into the proposal: "APO and CDG shall have a clear and defined border agreement with line that runs from the NorthWest to the SouthEast on a diagonal 6 tiles North East of CDG's Capitol which is also 6 tiles SouthWest of APO's Capitol; with no units crossing this border without permission from the other team."

6 tiles is one more tile lost to the screen. We should offer 5. Why offer 6?

	17-05-2003 13:25									#379
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither 6 tiles is one more tile lost to the screen. We should offer 5. Why offer 6?

Becuase if is to be permanent, then the border should go right in between us; otherwise there would be two lines of unsettleable tiles between both Civs.

If we HAVE to have a border, we can race to that line and place cities in the best spots and also prevent them from placing cities to close to us.

I admit to losing a tile for the screen, but I'm looking at the long term picture here.

	17-05-2003 13:29									#380
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I'm not thinking this border will last any longer than necessary. Knights at the latest, or we're done for in the game overall.

	17-05-2003 13:34									#381
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Maybe, maybe not....who knows at this point. Plus I don't think CDG would go for the 5 tile permanent border either. In their message they made it sound like like common sense (theirs) would dictate that the line be at 6 tiles instead of 5.

	17-05-2003 22:04									#382
	Inflate your Upload Space

As it is is, was, and will be Foreign Affairs Ministry modus operandi, hell give it to them, but find a LOOPHOLE!!!

I do not want this treaty to be permanent. If we can out-Rex them then why would we allow our hands to be tied? It's like signing some agreement which would limit our military potential just because we could in theory wipe them out. This is unacceptable. If we are superior in some respects we must not let an agreement take away or hamper that superiorty. If we concede, let it be so, but make it temporary.

	17-05-2003 23:13									#383
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Having the ability to out REX requites that we work to out REX them. But if we work to have a major military build up, then we can't REX as effectively.

E_T

	18-05-2003 00:24									#384
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No decision on this issue will be made this weekend.

Please continue to discuss it.

I have some very grave reservations about how things have been handled without my consent, mostly regarding the tech deal they just agreed to that we were absolutely stupid to offer in the first place without doublechecking to see if they were researching again.

Everyone in our government that I have spoken with has told me that we do not want a border agreement, and now it appears that we will agree to one because CDG asked for it.

Are we ever going to draw a line? Are we ever going to hold firm on any issue or is it more important to do everything they ask of us in an attempt to not be the victim of their immortal rush?

I believe that if we are going to continue our appeasement policy and if we're going to rope ourselves into tech deals with teams that are spending 0% of their taxes on research, that Apolyton needs a new Foreign Minister because these are not decisions I endorse or will take any responsibility for.

--Togas

	18-05-2003 00:46									#385
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quote: Originally posted by Togas No decision on this issue will be made this weekend. Please continue to discuss it. I have some very grave reservations about how things have been handled without my consent, mostly regarding the tech deal they just agreed to that we were absolutely stupid to offer in the first place without doublechecking to see if they were researching again. Everyone in our government that I have spoken with has told me that we do not want a border agreement, and now it appears that we will agree to one because CDG asked for it. Are we ever going to draw a line? Are we ever going to hold firm on any issue or is it more important to do everything they ask of us in an attempt to not be the victim of their immortal rush? I believe that if we are going to continue our appeasement policy and if we're going to rope ourselves into tech deals with teams that are spending 0% of their taxes on research, that Apolyton needs a new Foreign Minister because these are not decisions I endorse or will take any responsibility for. --Togas

This is also likely one of the reasons that Dominae is quiting as MoI. But this will likely be fixed with exersizing a bit more control of things (atleast from an FAM point of veiw).

I think that one of the reasons that things might be getting out of control, is the nature of how this game is being played. Some of us assume a faster pace, others a slower pace of events. Some people lurk and don't post on things (time issues, lack of interest, feeling that things are going well, not sure how to precede, take your pick). One thing that we haven't had is (maybe) more polls as to the direction(s) that we need to take. THen again, we can't let ourselves get too bogged down with that, either.

It's a problem that doesn't lend itself to an easy solution, the only thing we can really do is try to fix them. But giving up is also not a real solution.

We are the best (or so we claim), so let's act like it...

E_T

	18-05-2003 01:03									#386
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by E_T This is also likely one of the reasons that Dominae is quiting as MoI. But this will likely be fixed with exersizing a bit more control of things (atleast from an FAM point of veiw). I think that one of the reasons that things might be getting out of control, is the nature of how this game is being played. Some of us assume a faster pace, others a slower pace of events. Some people lurk and don't post on things (time issues, lack of interest, feeling that things are going well, not sure how to precede, take your pick). One thing that we haven't had is (maybe) more polls as to the direction(s) that we need to take. THen again, we can't let ourselves get too bogged down with that, either. It's a problem that doesn't lend itself to an easy solution, the only thing we can really do is try to fix them. But giving up is also not a real solution. We are the best (or so we claim), so let's act like it... E_T

hi ,

if we are the best and want to act , well the we dont have to think in terms like "should have , could have" , no we should do somethink , make a desission , wheter its wrong or right does not matter , cutting the knot does , .....

Together Everyone Achieves More

there should be more polls and involvement in general terms of the people , .....

have a nice day

	18-05-2003 03:55									#387
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , if we are the best and want to act , well the we dont have to think in terms like "should have , could have" , no we should do somethink , make a desission , wheter its wrong or right does not matter , cutting the knot does , ..... Together Everyone Achieves More there should be more polls and involvement in general terms of the people , ..... have a nice day

I find myself in complete agreement with panag here. (What is the world comming too, oh dear!)

I think it's time for a new/amended Constitution that allows for more Team ply and more interation from the general populace through polls and such.

Everyone can state their arguments for and against different things; and if the Consuls pick out one of those arguments as being the one we should follow then the people that were against that argumnet may feel like their opinion doesn't matter to the team. But, if we were to hold Polls and the end of the debating sessions, to decide what we should do, then hardly anyone would feel like what they said didn't count; rather they'd see that more people feel the other way and thus would actually see Democracy working in, guess what, a DEMOCRACY GAME!

The polls should be a sort of quick affair, perhaps running 36-48 hours as a maximum, so that we do not get bogged down. If people cannot make it in time to vote, oh well. In most Democracies you get only 18 hours to vote anyways.

	18-05-2003 06:47									#388
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by BigFree I find myself in complete agreement with panag here. (What is the world comming too, oh dear!) I think it's time for a new/amended Constitution that allows for more Team ply and more interation from the general populace through polls and such. Everyone can state their arguments for and against different things; and if the Consuls pick out one of those arguments as being the one we should follow then the people that were against that argumnet may feel like their opinion doesn't matter to the team. But, if we were to hold Polls and the end of the debating sessions, to decide what we should do, then hardly anyone would feel like what they said didn't count; rather they'd see that more people feel the other way and thus would actually see Democracy working in, guess what, a DEMOCRACY GAME! The polls should be a sort of quick affair, perhaps running 36-48 hours as a maximum, so that we do not get bogged down. If people cannot make it in time to vote, oh well. In most Democracies you get only 18 hours to vote anyways.

hi ,

just take a look at the con of CFC , ..... dont jump yet guys , just take a look at it , its simple , they seem to be able to find solutions at ones to any problem and they can devide the workload with great easy between one and another , .....

have a nice day

ps , we got 72 hours to vote

	18-05-2003 13:49									#389
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I was not at all pleased that we offered CDG a draft agreement of MM + HBR for Math + Philo. They immediately accepted it, and now we really can't take it back without looking like jerks. It is still my belief that CDG is not researching, they are stocking up gold to upgrade warriors -> Immortals.

However, what's done is done. After a discussion with BigFree about our options the following solution was developed:

We will offer them a formal deal for the tech trade, with the standard format including a no-trade clause, but we will add to it the following "escape clause" to ensure that they actually do some legit research:

If either team does not complete their research 25 turns after this agreement is signed, this agreement is null and void.

If they refuse to agree to this, we could ask them to propose a more "realistic" # of turns. If they still don't agree to it, then we toss the entire tech trade and explain to them why we cannot agree to trade with them ... our intelligence informs us that they are at max taxes, and not actually researching.

--Togas

	18-05-2003 13:50									#390
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Man, that is good. I'm glad Togas is on our side!