19-05-2003 02:44									#391
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What are we going to respond to their request for a price re CB?

25 gold?

	19-05-2003 02:55									#392
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Discussed it in chat. Ended up settling on a price of 20g. It was the amount we received from CFC to compensate for the difference between Wheel and CB.

--Togas

	19-05-2003 10:12									#393
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Revised tech proposal to CDG:

quote: Apolyton will give Elucidia Map Making while Elucidia gives Apolyton Mathematics and Philosophy. Upon completion of the technology that each team is responsible for, the team will offer the said technology to the other team on the turn it is made available to them. This offer will be remade each and every turn thereafter until the other team aquires their required technology for the trade and offer's it in return. Each team will make progress reports to the other team as to when the technologies will be researched and at what turn number they will be completed on. If either team does not complete their research 25 turns after this agreement is signed, this agreement is null and void. Signed by Apolyton on turn 57-1600 BC

If signed by CDG on this turn and CDG doesn't offer Math and Philo to APO by turn 82 (975 BC); then this deal is void. If APO doesn't offer MapMaking by turn 82(975 BC); then this deal is void.

	19-05-2003 10:30									#394
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Agreement approved by Togas at this time. Agreement sent to CDG.

	20-05-2003 02:08									#395
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Ok, CDG wants it to be 35 turns instead of 25 turns due to high maintenence costs. Whatever, the have a Barracks, whoopee! :-/

I say we counter with 30 and if they don't accept we might say we ran some simulations based upon what we saw in their city screen when we opened the Embassy and we know that they can do it sooner; unless they are planning on upgrading plenty of Warrior's.

quote: Maintanence costs are making things a bit more expensive Could we raise it to a 35 turn deadline? If that's OK, then I'll sign it as soon as you send confirmation Thanks, Louis XXIV

	20-05-2003 02:09									#396
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I just read in the Correspondence thread that CDG want 35 turns to complete their research. Either:

a) They really do intend to complete the research by that point OR

b) They have no intention to complete it, and in 35 turns the state of the world will be dramatically different.

Incidentally, they say that they have increased 'maintainence' costs. What costs? Is this realistic?

	20-05-2003 02:30									#397
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Possibility number 1: Multiple barracks for troops or multiple temples to block a potential culture-attack by GCA.

Possibility number 2: They only have 3 cities; that means they can support 12 units. They may have more than that in warriors. ::Cringe:: That would also support the "we need 35 turns" theory- since they would no doubt have enough Immortals to wipe out GCA in 35 turns.

Possibility number 3: They're lying. :P

	20-05-2003 03:01									#398
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We should let it drop, letting them know that we are open to the trade in 35 turns, but we want to keep the door open to getting one or both of 'their' techs sooner by other means. Yes?

PS. Well done, Togas!

	20-05-2003 03:31									#399
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As long as everyone is researching something different, we have no need to make an agreement with them now. From what I know, we basically have an open hand at whatever we want to research, and no one else will be researching the same thing. This allows us the flexibility to deal with who we want (CDG, GCA and CFC are all researching somewhat similar paths, correct?).

Not that I'm saying that we should throw away the possibility of negotiating a treaty with them, I just want everyone to keep this fact in mind...

	20-05-2003 03:36									#400
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IIRC, the clause is there to ensure we will be able to go researching The Republic with little or even better no delay. We seem to have the following research goals ahead of us, prior to starting on The Republic:

MapMaking - 177 beakers to go
Horseback Riding - 120 beakers
Code of Laws - 240 beakers
======================
TOTAL - 537 beakers

537 beakers / 35 turns = 15 beakers/turn on average
537 beakers / 30 turns = 18 beakers/turn on average
537 beakers / 25 turns = 22 beakers/turn on average

Our current commerce output is 14 gpt, thus 14 beakers per turn (bpt) at 100% science. I believe it's reasonable to expect our commerce output to approximately double in 25-35 turns. With our research at 100% that would equal to an average of something like 20-23 bpt during the said period of time...

Just throwing in some numbers, so that we know that telling CDG (without all this math behind, of course) that 35 turns is too late for us is no trickery... and so that we know that 25 turns is probably the earliest we'd actually be able to make use of Philosophy... with plans to knock the research slider down a bit, 30 turns would most probably be not a problem for us...

	20-05-2003 04:26									#401
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Given this information and the comments I've seen so far in this thread and the tech planning thread, I believe we have our answer.

Bigfree -- Draft a letter to CDG in response to their request for 35 turns. The letter should be something like this:

It is critical that we receive the technology from you within 25 turns. We we will begin researching Republic within 25-30 turns from now, and we need to have Philosophy before we begin.

We need to keep the door open to trade with other civs for Philosophy just in case you guys don't have it when we need it. But if your team does finish it and Mathematics before we begin Republic we will definately get it from you before going to any other civ for it.

Maybe it's best not to sign any formal trade treaties right now. Instead, let's just promise to keep each other informed about when we're done with techs and try to make a trade as soon as practical for both of us.

Sound good?

--Togas

	20-05-2003 08:17									#402
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Is there a chance that they are researching at 10% (or 1 scientist) and have done so for the past 5 turns??

	20-05-2003 12:20									#403
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quote: Originally posted by BRC Is there a chance that they are researching at 10% (or 1 scientist) and have done so for the past 5 turns??

Even though always a possibility, I don't believe it's likely - they'd need 40 turns for just one of the two techs we expect them to deliver, having to get the other one through trade together with resale rights.

I believe that Togas' proposal is fine - let's make it clear that in case they are able to deliver "their" techs before we need them, we will trade, but if they lag behind, we wish to keep the freedom to acquire the techs from another source (should there be any, of course).

	20-05-2003 12:25									#404
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double post

Last edited by vondrack on 20-05-2003 at 12:31

	20-05-2003 12:37									#405
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How does this proposal sound?

quote: Hi Louis XXIV In reference to our tech trade proposal we feel that it is critical that we receive the technology from you within 25 turns. We will begin researching The Republic within 25-30 turns from now, and we need to have Philosophy before we begin. We need to keep the door open to trade with other civs for Philosophy just in case you guys don't have it when we need it. But if your team does finish it and Mathematics before we begin The Republic we will definately get it from you before going to any other civ for it. Another possibility is that you guys can do Philosophy first so that it would not hold up our plans. We could do a partial trade at that point, with you giving us Philosophy so we can go directly to Republic. We could then give you Map Making for Mathematics to finish the deal. Of cousrse all of this will be logged with the UN. Or, maybe it's best not to sign any formal trade treaties right now. Instead, let's just promise to keep each other informed about when we're done with techs and try to make a trade as soon as practical for both of us. Let me know what you'd prefer. I hope you can understand our position on this. We certainly hope to be able to trade fairly and efficiently with Elucidia.

	20-05-2003 12:51									#406
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Double Post

Last edited by BigFree on 20-05-2003 at 13:55

	20-05-2003 14:42									#407
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From the looks of things on Turn 57, I wonder if GCA are considering founding a city to the northwest of their current borders - perhaps they're aiming to physically cut us off from CFC?

	20-05-2003 16:12									#408
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If so, once again they are proving how not-swift they are....

Unless they don't know that we already have conctact, putting that city there accomplishes nothing but drawing the ire of both CFC and APO. It's not as though they could defend it worth a hoot when/if we ever decided we WERE going through.

	20-05-2003 23:02									#409
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You can go through a city just like you can go through a unit... just put enough units to the job and it's done. The only advantage of a city there is that no one else can build a city there, and you can move naval units. However, we had no intentions of building a city there any time soon, and if they're planning on building a navy, then, well...

	20-05-2003 23:30									#410
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BigFree -- Your draft letter looks good. Send it off.

--Togas

	21-05-2003 02:05									#411
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Please add to this list if I've forgotten something:

Apolyton FAM To Do List for CDG:

Get BigFree back home
Get them to allow BFM to move past chokepoint.
Get Morris to move off Iron.

Get them to buy CB for 20g.
Resolve Math+Philo tech trade by backing out.

Finish NAP
Deal with their Border Issue

--Togas

	29-05-2003 04:08									#412
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Looking at the latest communique, I have to say first off I am stunned at how well both BF and Togas put our points forward. Ace work guys.

Now, to the content: we now have two options possibly open to us (depending on CDG reaction) - either we have a 6/7 tile border with CDG , or a 5 tile border and a path to the chokepoint. As Togas believes (from the chat), the extra few tiles will not amount to very much, especially as we are unlikely to use them before the CDG disciplinary action. However, what does the path to the choke get us? We have contact with all the civs there anyway, and we will hopefully have a Galley shunting around there eventually. Unless there's some vagary of MP where you can't contact anyone you don't have visible contact with or an FAM thing that requires us to be able to get there quickly, then what need do we have for the path?

Otherwise, the closer we can get to CDG before the war (only if we have the culture that takes the land for us), the better. Any other pros/cons for more land / less land + path to the chokepoint?

	29-05-2003 05:03									#413
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+1 more land. I don't see how the choke point will be of any real benefit to us in this game. I normally like to have them for defensive reasons, but I'm more concerned with CDG than anyone on the other side of that choke point. Besides I'd rather let CDG waste their resource settling the crappy land around the choke point than encourage them to develop the better land closer to home.

Only hesitation: We haven't seen the land immediately on the other side of the choke point. If CFC is further south next to GCA like we think (probally know) they are, then there could be some unoccupied fairly nice land north of CFC and across from that choke point. However, if CDG does get to settle some nice sites north of CFC then they will have to defend them from CFC which would stretch them too thin...something else to encourage if we can.

	29-05-2003 05:24									#414
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It is a simple negotiation point.

We don’t really need to get past the choke point.
But if they think we think it important, they may go easy on the border negotiations in return for not allowing our warrior through.

The only problem, is what happens if they know we want them to think that we think it important…But then… I think we will know when they know that we want them to think that we think….Ummmm … Bah ! … Forget it

	29-05-2003 05:31									#415
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wervdon is right. Let CDG have the chokepoint. Once they settle a City on the chokepoint, they will most likely settle a few future cities around the chokepoint. And that means their cities formation will be either a straight line from the East (GCA) to the West (CFC) or 2 clusters of Cities (one near GCA and the other near CFC).

That obviously will stretch their defence forces. We can therefore go for their cities one at a time when the time comes.

	29-05-2003 05:55									#416
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Definitely more land.

But push the point on them. Make it seem as though we want access, and we're sacrificing to allow them to have it. Try to get more than our "fair" share for that reason.

	29-05-2003 08:59									#417
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H_E and Trip are onto us.

Seriously, BF and I are using standard negotiation tactics whereby we ask for more than we expect, and then "settle" for more than we deserve.

We know that they won't give us access to the chokepoint but we can make a good argument about the value of that position and the lands beyond it, thereby forcing them to give us a little more land than the 6 tiles from their capital that they've offered. More land gives us an extra turn or two of warning should they attack, and gives them less warning when we go after them.

--Togas

	29-05-2003 14:22									#418
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The obvious push for us is the 7 tile from us/5 tile from them border. We may get this we may not. We'll see...

What I'm thinking though is that do we need to give them a border at all?

1. WBigFree is already on the way home through CDG territory.

2. We have a Tech deal in place that is not tied to a NAP or a border deal.

3. Morris has left our border's.

4. Since they are settling a city at the choke point, there's no reason we need to explore beyond it. We have contact with all Civs on the other side of it (CFC.) We'll likely trade WM's with CFC and then we'll have all the info we need on their territory.

5. We can still offer a NAP but with no border.

CDG's stalling in getting into a chat with us has hurt themselves. They no longer have the leverage to get the border that they once had. (Morris has left quietly. )

The question is if we don't give them a border/settling line, will they try to plant a city over the proposed 6 tile border before we can get at least two cities set up to act as "border's"? I'm prety sure we can get those cities in place before they get theirs. Even if they do, that city will produce squat for them and would be our first conquest once we reach The Republic. If they settle any cities close to that proposed 6 tile border before they have any other productive cities besides their Capitol, they will be sealing their fate even more to a certain doom; It will be easy pickings at that time.

	29-05-2003 14:46									#419
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The main idea behind the border was to cause CDG to feel more confident that we were hoping for long term cooperation with them, and that we were not planning to attack them anytime soon (because we would break the border agreement). It is up to the Foreign Office to help out here - have we gained their trust enough? And would stopping any chance of a border with them cause them to suspect us again? I think there is no question that we don't need to worry about any cities they may or may not settle without a border. If they approach us then any such cities will just be the first to fall, as BF says.

	29-05-2003 15:12									#420
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I do feel that they trust us. I'll have to see how they react to what we have already proposed. If they back off the 7 tile border and say they want the 6, then I will counter that our team doesn't think that is very fair and might not want to give them any border at all. I'll let them stew with that a bit, then if they come back and 'insist' on having a border, then we will likely give in to them because, like you said, we want them to feel a certain comfort level with us. We'll have to see how the talks go though...

I definatley won't be trying to upset them or get them thinking we are going to attack them. I'll keep doing the "your team is really together; you are doing well." thing. Basically, just blowing smoke up their ass. But they are so 'young' they won't catch onto that I don't think.