21-03-2003 03:12									#151
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It sounds like everyone in the FA is convinced war is inevitable. So I guess there's no solution.

Did we try our best? Maybe. Are we going to quit? Yes, because our ego will not allow us to live next to a bully.

I would like to point out again that, unless CDG lands are worse than ours (unlikely), an Immortal attack, if it comes, will probably ruin us no matter how hard we try to defend (poprushes and all). This is definitely scary. The goal is therefore to work to avoid this war at all costs, or delay it as long as possible. Screaming for "adequate defense" is hardly a solution.


Dominae

	21-03-2003 03:28									#152
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How many turns to get an "adequate defense"(Mercs)?

	21-03-2003 03:40									#153
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With 3 NMs and future plans to build more, you can do wonders. Walls rushed when we see the stack, piling 3 NMs in one city and working on a Barracks in that city after that will give you an impregnable base. From there we can counter-attack, or whatever we want to. The difference between 3 NMs and no NMs but 6 Warriors, is a huge one.

	21-03-2003 04:22									#154
	Full PM-box? Change here!

3 NMs versus 6 Warriors is of course an unfair comparison; 3 NMs = 90 Shields = 9 Warriors, which would soon upgrade to Sworsdmen.


Dominae

	21-03-2003 04:26									#155
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Yes, but that's also a ton of gold.

	21-03-2003 04:27									#156
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quote: Did we try our best? Maybe. Are we going to quit? Yes, because our ego will not allow us to live next to a bully. I would like to point out again that, unless CDG lands are worse than ours (unlikely), an Immortal attack, if it comes, will probably ruin us no matter how hard we try to defend (poprushes and all). This is definitely scary. The goal is therefore to work to avoid this war at all costs, or delay it as long as possible. Screaming for "adequate defense" is hardly a solution.

but we can't trust them- I think they'll attack with a rush- we should do either a preemptive strike or really buff up our defenses and make certain that Gamecatcher allies with us!

-
BTW what is a NM?

	21-03-2003 04:30									#157
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud BTW what is a NM?

NM is Numidian Mercenary - our unique unit. 2/3/1 30 shields, comes with Bronze Working. The mainstay of our defense.

	21-03-2003 04:36									#158
	Increase Your PM Length

I see, well in that case, I am all for a sooner war- in say 20-30 turns; if Gamecatcher agrees to ally against the evil CDG! By then we should have 1-2 Numidians! and they will probably only have one immortal at best by that time... now of course the swordsman defense is bad... but we will have 3 or 4 warriors to take them out- I bet that if we could draw their units away from their city (at least one) somehow... then perhaps we coudl destroy them.

But their "no go south" has got me thinking- could there perhaps be another civ down there? Or could there be some resources... we should ask, in a treaty with Gamecatcher to explore down there as we believe there might be another civ that might be hostile to CDG... And if there is; we might have a three way alliance and can crush teh backstabbers!

	21-03-2003 05:23									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae It sounds like everyone in the FA is convinced war is inevitable. So I guess there's no solution.

What gave you that impression? We're doing our utmost to NOT have to fight a war until we're ready. If that means appeasing CDG, well we're swallowing our pride

quote: Did we try our best? Maybe. Are we going to quit? Yes, because our ego will not allow us to live next to a bully.

Did we try our best? Maybe. I agree. Have we proven to be liars and cheats like CDG? no. Is our foreign policy based on paranoia and agression? no. We appease the bully until we've worked out enough to kick his @ss.

quote: I would like to point out again that, unless CDG lands are worse than ours (unlikely), an Immortal attack, if it comes, will probably ruin us no matter how hard we try to defend (poprushes and all). This is definitely scary. The goal is therefore to work to avoid this war at all costs, or delay it as long as possible. Screaming for "adequate defense" is hardly a solution.

We'll have Mercs before they get Immorals. Part of their paranoia is probably due to terrible land, and I see the possibility that they will not get iron any time soon.

	21-03-2003 23:44									#160
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We know nothing about "their" land. All we can see is the jungle between us. It's best not to speculate with so little information.

GhengisFarb maintains his stance that no one shares the chat times with him, and there's hardly any posting, so he doesn't know what's going on. He also has said that he's not very motivated to be involved, and finds the game "boring." That should make discussions interesting.

	21-03-2003 23:53									#161
	Inflate your Upload Space

Most Civ3 players find a particular game "boring" when their start location is not that great. Just a guess.


Dominae

	22-03-2003 01:53									#162
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Real men play even if they start on a 1-tile tundra island!!!!!!





If GF finds it boring, it only serves to confirm our suspicions of bad geopolitical situation.

	22-03-2003 04:51									#163
	Remove this text

I agree, he might decide that his team wants out and try to torpedo another in the process. (IE us)

Or start a war just to make the game more interesting

when we meet Gamecatcher we should tell them our suspicions and how he considers the game... "exchange intelligence" as it were.

	26-03-2003 08:28									#164
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Ok folks, we have a new deal to discuss. As per my PM's with GF of CDG:

We offer: Warrior Code and The Wheel
They offer: Iron Working

Opinions? Comments?

	26-03-2003 08:30									#165
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Just make it binding so that hut results or no hut results, we still get IW as soon as they complete it.

If they don't want that, then we should go for IW ourselves.

	26-03-2003 08:54									#166
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Warrior Code: 3
The Wheel: 4

Iron Working: 6

Again, we lose out in Beakers. This is just as though we were to gift them 20-30 Gold right now. There is no tech devaluation to consider here, so any way you look at it we're losing Commerce on this deal.


Dominae

	26-03-2003 08:58									#167
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We're behind here Dominae.

Counting beakers has not been so good, so far.

Besides, the way they are building, I am content that we will outreseach them. Evens it up a bit, I think.

	26-03-2003 09:09									#168
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I believe Vondrack said that WC would take 11 turns to research, 14 turns for Wheel and 28 turns for IW with our current economy. I may not be the smartest guy, but I'm pretty sure that 11 + 14 is less than 28. So at least on our side, we're saving gold.

	26-03-2003 09:13									#169
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21 for IW.

	26-03-2003 09:17									#170
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither 21 for IW.

I guess my information is inaccurate then.

	26-03-2003 09:54									#171
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Togas, MasterZen, and BigFree.

Do you think that CDG has a clue re GCA contacting CFC?

Is it possible that GCA could get CFC people to cooperate in a ruse to get CDG and us to go to war?

	26-03-2003 10:02									#172
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Togas, MasterZen, and BigFree. Do you think that CDG has a clue re GCA contacting CFC?

Yes, they know about each other (all three) either by legal means or otherwise.

quote: Is it possible that GCA could get CFC people to cooperate in a ruse to get CDG and us to go to war?

I don't think so. The reason is that CDG and GCA has repeatedly stated their hatred of CFC. For either one of them to be working with CFC is highly unlikely.

What's more likely is that CDG and GCA are planning on teaming up against CFC; likely asking us if we want in on 'the action.'

That's the way I see things now, based on official chat information and Trip's 'informal' chats with all three parties.

	26-03-2003 10:30									#173
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Do not rule anything out. While GCA and CDG are naturally inclined to be opposed to CFC, that does not mean they would team up with CFC to put itself ahead. We can't eliminate the possibility that CFC and either CDG or GCA (or even both) could end up on very good "game terms" with each other.

	26-03-2003 10:31									#174
	Draft Proposal Got spare money?

Here's a draft of the proposal to CDG
------------------------------------------------------------------------


We propose the following:

Immediately upon both parties agreeing to this proposal:


Apolyton agrees to give CDG Warrior Code and The Wheel.
CDG agrees to give Apolyton Iron Working. This trade is to happen on the first turn in which both parties have acquired the Technologies required for this trade.

No Trade Clause
Neither Apolyton nor CDG may trade any technology acquired from the other party by this agreement to any other nation for the duration of this agreement.

The Goodie Hut Clause
Because of the likelihood that one of our nations will uncover one of the listed trade technologies before this agreement expires, this clause has been added as insurance to help the unlucky party.

Should either party discover any technology in a "Goodie Hut" during the duration of this agreement that party shall give the technology to the other party.

Should the Goodie Hut technology be Iron Working, CDG shall additionally research Horseback Riding and/or give it to Apolyton on the turn it is acquired or the turn in which this clause is activated.

Should the Goodie Hut technology be either Warrior Code or The Wheel, Apolyton shall additionally research Horseback Riding and/or give it to CDG on the turn it is acquired or the turn in which this clause is activated.

Should the Goodie Hut technology be anything else than what is proposed in the trades above; then the Civ that receives it must give that Tech to the other Civ, but is free to trade it with whomever they chose as long as the give it to the other Civ first, and no further research requirements shall be made.

Furthermore, should any additional Goodie Hut reveal, after one party has been required to research Horseback Riding, technology that is included in this agreement, the party who acquired it shall immediately give it to the other party, and however no further research requirements shall be made.

Expiration
This agreement expires immediately after the trade is completed, including the Goodie Hut provisions and neither party has any remaining obligation.

This is the agreement in whole.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Respectfully
bigfree1
Apolytonian Ambassador

	26-03-2003 10:36									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Do not rule anything out. While GCA and CDG are naturally inclined to be opposed to CFC, that does not mean they would team up with CFC to put itself ahead. We can't eliminate the possibility that CFC and either CDG or GCA (or even both) could end up on very good "game terms" with each other.

I agree that nothing is 100%; so I just said 'highly unlikely.'

The GCA team seems pretty 'young' according to Togas and WB. And we know how CDG is. So while it's a guess as to what to expect; I put my best guess foward.

It would be nice to be able to hedge every bet in this game.

	26-03-2003 10:40									#176
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Well, I saw a lot of chatting between GCA and CFC, and they were pretty friendly with each other. I think the out-of-game dislike won't matter much at all for the DG, and we shouldn't really worry about it too much. All we know is that GCA has talked a lot more with CDG and CFC than we have and is probably on better terms with them than we are by default.

	26-03-2003 11:14									#177
	Re: Draft Proposal Inflate your Upload Space

I have edited the Tech Trade agreement. This is the 2nd draft:

quote: Originally posted by BigFree Here's a draft of the proposal to CDG ------------------------------------------------------------------------ We propose the following: Apolyton agrees to give CDG Warrior Code and The Wheel. CDG agrees to give Apolyton Iron Working. This trade is to happen on the first turn in which both parties have acquired the Technologies required for this trade. No Trade Clause Neither Apolyton nor CDG may trade any technology acquired from the other party by this agreement to any other nation for 10 turns after receiving the technology. Non-Voidable If Apolyton aquires Iron Working from another source, it does not void Apolyton's obligation to give CDG The Wheel and Warrior Code upon Apolyton's completion of the two technologies. If CDG aquires Wheel and/or Warrior Code from another source, it does not void CDG's obligation to give Apolyton Iron Working upon completion of the research. This is the agreement in whole. ------------------------------------------------------------------------

--Togas

	26-03-2003 11:38									#178
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Any other additions or deletions?

	26-03-2003 11:49									#179
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I'm liking it and think it is acceptable to send.

	27-03-2003 02:07									#180
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I was lurking, but Kentonio just came into the #Apolyton chat a few minutes ago:

quote: [13:03] * Kentonio (~Java_user@81.6.220.109) has joined #Apolyton [13:03] DBTS: I blame you-all-know-how-which-name-begins-with-a-S [13:04] ColdWizard: Stefu? [13:04] DBTS: [13:04] ColdWizard: [13:04] Kentonio: is there anyone from ISDG available plz? [13:05] DBTS: IS? inter site? [13:05] Kentonio: yes [13:05] DBTS: nope not me anyways [13:07] Kentonio: if anyone comes on from the team plz ask them to contact CDG with an explanation of why they are trying to cause a berach of relations if you would plz [13:07] DBTS: i dunno who plays [13:07] * Shiber (w00t@bzq-218-85-46.red.bezeqint.net) Quit (Quit: Good night ) [13:07] Kentonio: togas, trip, bigfree, nye [13:08] DBTS: trip is here [13:08] Kentonio: i know trip is here but he's not awake it seems [13:08] DBTS: [13:08] * ColdWizard slaps Trip around a bit with a large trout [13:08] Kentonio: [13:08] DBTS: i slap them when they wake up...if i am still around [13:08] Kentonio: thanks dude [13:08] Kentonio: laters [13:08] * Kentonio (~Java_user@81.6.220.109) Quit (Quit: Leaving)