18-03-2003 19:46									#31
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quote: Then why haven't the kurds in the north suffered to the same degree? Hmmm.. Maybe it's the leader that is the difference.

Not entirely true. Northern Iraq has a much more porous border to begin with . They've also been receiving currency assistance as well as commodity assistance. And even though the population comprises 15% of the country, they have almost 30% of the region's most arable land.

	18-03-2003 19:48									#32
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Don't get me wrong. I realize it's not a case of totally black and white. Both issues are to blame. But people that believe it's all sanctions and keep spouting it, are usually motivated by a bias.

	18-03-2003 19:48									#33
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Show me 2 links.

One, that shows the U.N. and/or USA has killed 500,000 Iraqi children.

Two, that shows "official U.N. estimate" that states 500,000 civilians will die.


One stipulation.
If it's a site/estimate endorsed by France, don't waste your time.

	18-03-2003 19:51									#34
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Well those countries that most vocally spoke out against sanctions are those that would benefit the most from removing them.

	18-03-2003 19:51									#35
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Biased are people who think it's all sadam.

Sloww. search and thou shalt find.

	18-03-2003 19:52									#36
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quote: Originally posted by rah Don't get me wrong. I realize it's not a case of totally black and white. Both issues are to blame. But people that believe it's all sanctions and keep spouting it, are usually motivated by a bias.

nothing is black and white so why should that be Rah?

	18-03-2003 19:53									#37
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No. Run your mouth, and show.

	18-03-2003 20:07									#38
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Well there is one thing said in this thread that I can agree with it...

That it will probably be toast shortly.

paiktis22... If you continue with you trolling with an intent to start a flame war, you will be toast as well.
You have been warned in the past, and you won't be warned again... just restricted.

	18-03-2003 20:13									#39
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 nothing is black and white so why should that be Rah?

You seem to think so. I know that some of the medicine decisions (whether allowed or not) caused some damage. I didn't agree with them. But was that responsible for all 500,000 that you claim? If the money had gone to help the people instead of building palaces and rearming the military would that many have died?

	18-03-2003 20:16									#40
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Here are some documented facts for comparison.


Hiroshima: about 138,890.
Nagasaki: about 48,857
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~rjg/deaths.shtml





Read about Hussein here.
It's as good as any, and at least I provide reference.

http://www.iraq.net/erica/news-e/archives/00001146.htm

	18-03-2003 20:17									#41
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...we can start to count the cost of the US' bungling ineptitude at diplomacy...

If not in civilian deaths, then certainly international relations...

It is the manner in which this whole desire for war has been prosecuted that has caused this whole mess in the first place - the US has finally got its wish (with the help of France) and dragged the UK in with it.

If the US had sincerely gone the UN route in the first place it might have got its wish for war legitimately - instead it has nakedly been in favour of war from the beginning, thus setting most neutral states against it also...

France isn't much better as threatening to veto the final benchmarks unconditionally would have been to let Saddam off the hook.

What I am most pissed about is that there was no 2nd resolution - I don't care if France were going to veto as it would have been an unreasonable attitude. What I do care about is that Blair pinned all his efforts on the backing of a 2nd resolution and by chickening out, he has lost the possibility of the vote of a moral majority...

Now, all of us have to get behind our troops and wish them the best! We must also hope that civilian casualties are kept to a minimum and that the rebuilding process does not become a puppet government clusterf*ck...

Once the dust has settled, the Bush administration really does have to get back to the drawing board when it comes to diplomacy skills because frankly they are a bunch of imbecilic clowns!

	18-03-2003 20:21									#43
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I say, let this thread be toast: it is amazing, the level of hatred and mistrust so many of the pro-war side have for the anti-war side (and vice versa) that two different posters would come out and say :"hey look they want iraqis to die so they can hate us more".

It is a disgracefull and deeply insulting comment, which in my view speaks volumes about the ones making it far more than those it is directed against.

I am deeply against this war because I think it is a mistake, an act of deep arrogance based on faulty notions about the world and the peope who live in it. I also hope that very few people die as a result of it and the aftermath.

	18-03-2003 21:00									#44
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Here are some documented facts for comparison. Hiroshima: about 138,890. Nagasaki: about 48,857 http://www.holocaust-history.org/~rjg/deaths.shtml

Way to go Sloww, back up the US's hunt for WMD with accounts of the US's own use of WMD...

What a 'smart' way to argue your corner...

quote: Read about Hussein here. It's as good as any, and at least I provide reference. http://www.iraq.net/erica/news-e/archives/00001146.htm

D'Oh!

Check it out Sloww, Saddam was a US friend until 1990 - they knew about the 100,000 plus Kurds that Saddam murdered, including the use of WMD. Did they lift a finger then???

NO - because the US does not care about the lives of Iraqi civilians, as is borne out by the hundreds of thousands that died during the sanctions...

So don't give me any moral BS about kicking Saddam out - because that is patently not on the US agenda!

As I have said time again - I am not against the ultimate use of force, just that a clear and due process needed to be followed such as allowing the weapons inspectors to finish their work...

	18-03-2003 21:04									#45
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS NO - because the US does not care about the lives of Iraqi civilians, as is borne out by the hundreds of thousands that died during the sanctions...

Hmmm... and those sanctions were put in place why?

Oh... that's right, because Sadam didn't live by the agreements he made when he surrendered...
Some people might think that he is the one responsible for his peoples problems and that maybe he doesn't care what happens to them...

	18-03-2003 21:09									#46
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Given the tone of the OP, I'm suprised that this thread has lasted this long.

	18-03-2003 21:12									#47
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Don't worry... it probably won't last much longer

	18-03-2003 21:13									#48
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Way to go Sloww, back up the US's hunt for WMD with accounts of the US's own use of WMD... What a 'smart' way to argue your corner...

If you would occasionally read, and not just talk, you'd see that some people insist that 500,000 Iraqi civilians will be killed.

The point to the numbers I posted, was that 2 atom bombs dropped on Japan killed less than that.

Keep talking though. You're mildly entertaining.

	18-03-2003 21:23									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Hmmm... and those sanctions were put in place why? Oh... that's right, because Sadam didn't live by the agreements he made when he surrendered... Some people might think that he is the one responsible for his peoples problems and that maybe he doesn't care what happens to them...

And two wrongs don't make a right. We know he doesn't care about his people, but the effect of these sanctions is also clear that those that put them into place don't either...

The problem about Saddam and Iraq is that there was insufficient follow up - he should have been kicked out in the beginning. Or he should have been hounded from the get go. Nobody, including the US gave enough of a sh*t about him to do the job properly until after 9/11...

When children at school are allowed to run riot at school, who do you blame - the child or the teacher?

	18-03-2003 21:29									#50
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS When children at school are allowed to run riot at school, who do you blame - the child or the teacher?

Yeah... the teacher, or in this case Sadam. It was completely up to him to live up to his agreements. And because he didn't, his people are suffering because of it.
He could have stayed in power, and taken care of his people. But instead, he decided that they should suffer because of him. And what little money he did get... he didn't use for his people... just built a few more palaces, rebuilt his army...

	18-03-2003 21:32									#51
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If the kids are out of control and the teacher is to blame do you take away the kids food?

	18-03-2003 21:32									#52
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He doesn't lack for palaces, does he ?

	18-03-2003 21:35									#53
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH If the kids are out of control and the teacher is to blame do you take away the kids food?

Sadam is the one taking away their food... He has a choice on what to do with the resources he has. He has decided that His palaces and army come first, and his people last. So place the blame where it belongs

	18-03-2003 21:39									#54
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quote: The problem about Saddam and Iraq is that there was insufficient follow up - he should have been kicked out in the beginning. Or he should have been hounded from the get go. Nobody, including the US gave enough of a sh*t about him to do the job properly until after 9/11...

Why are you trying to blame the US for this? Damned if you do, damned if you don't... I guess.

We are warmnongers, right? I really don't think it was our decision, or Bagdad would no be called Disney Sand.

I blame the UN.

	18-03-2003 21:40									#55
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You can't have it both ways, on one hand Saddam is an evil dictator who cares nothing for his own people so we're applying sanctions, on the other we're going to trust him to distrubute food and medicines to the people he cares nothing about.

Great policy. Someone was really thinking logically about that one.

	18-03-2003 21:44									#56
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Honestly Ming, why is this thread still open?

The discussion has become Iraq generic, and we have several, sevral threads out on that as is, while the OP and other commnets remain deeply insulting.

This thread has less use than any of those "US girl killed by bulldozer" thread getting axed.

	18-03-2003 21:44									#57
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH You can't have it both ways, on one hand Saddam is an evil dictator who cares nothing for his own people so we're applying sanctions, on the other we're going to trust him to distrubute food and medicines to the people he cares nothing about. Great policy. Someone was really thinking logically about that one.

Uhhh, no.
Hussein and Sons go.
We'll distribute the food. That's how that works.

	18-03-2003 21:44									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Yeah... the teacher, or in this case Sadam. It was completely up to him to live up to his agreements. And because he didn't, his people are suffering because of it. He could have stayed in power, and taken care of his people. But instead, he decided that they should suffer because of him. And what little money he did get... he didn't use for his people... just built a few more palaces, rebuilt his army...

Actually I was thinking of Saddam being the child and the sanction makers being the Teacher, but I also like MikeH's post...

The point is that the sanctions have completely backfired, allowing Saddam to become stronger in relation to any potential internal enemies - you would think that after a year or two of this that the powers that be would have done something about it...?

For that last aspect alone, I would lay the blame firmly at the feet of the sanction makers!

quote: Sadam is the one taking away their food... He has a choice on what to do with the resources he has. He has decided that His palaces and army come first, and his people last. So place the blame where it belongs

Thus proving that sanctions aren't working! Sanctions are to blame for the deaths, Saddam is still taking his cut - there's just less stuff to go around...

We know sanctions are working and people are dying - therefore those that put them into place are responsible for the deaths!

	18-03-2003 21:44									#59
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Oh... so the alternative was to allow him to have even more money... which by your own comments would have only meant that he had more money to spend on palaces and his army

As you admit, he doesn't care about his own people... so the sanctions have only really limited the number of new palaces and his army

	18-03-2003 21:47									#60
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Uhhh, no. Hussein and Sons go. We'll distribute the food. That's how that works.

Oh of course, the sanctions are only useful as a way to encourage the people of Iraq to rebel against Saddam. I appreciate that.

Sanctions are killing people in Iraq because Saddam is in power. It's the direct combination of Saddam and Sanctions. You can't say one or the other is to blame, it's the combination.