19-03-2003 22:11									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor A "clean-up operation" which will look like this :

To stop Saddam from doing this again with poison gas.

	19-03-2003 22:15									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor A "clean-up operation" which will look like this : Bravo

I agree with that. There will be pictures like this. But from airstrikes and missile attacks. It will not be a ground WAR. Even Iraq is asking the same question... why bother? Might as well give up.

But still... it's just a clean up operation.

	19-03-2003 23:20									#124
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Rah :
Do you believe your admin spent billions, risks American lives, and fostered opposition against the US worldwide for the altruistic sake of saving Iraqis ?

Monkspider :
I just wanted to show the mess that'll have to be cleaned up after the of-so nice "clean-up operation". And you can't clean up the death and suffering your bombs will bring.
I insist showing pictures of war's horrors, because most Americans here seem to forget concretely what war is about. Figures don't mean anything. Seeing a mother losing her son may do. Seeing a person jumping from the tallest building of the world just before its collapse certainly did.

	19-03-2003 23:22									#125
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quote: Originally posted by rah Even if we win, giving the power to the people that have been subjected to Sadam's hateful propaganda for over a decade since that last Gulf war is not likely to produce a country that will look at the US in a friendly light.

And it won't just be limited to Iraq. I was watching a segment about the situation in Jordan. At least 75% of the people are strongly opposed to the US invading. There's very real fears there about whether it will be possible to retain order if the death toll starts climbing in Iraq.

	19-03-2003 23:28									#126
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quote: Originally posted by rah I laugh at your assumption. Then why haven't the kurds in the north suffered to the same degree? Hmmm.. Maybe it's the leader that is the difference.

You can't use that as proof. The Kurds are favoured by the Americans, so the sanctions wouldn't have been as restricting in their territory as in the central part of Iraq.

	19-03-2003 23:31									#127
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United States government doesn't give a rats ass about crimes against humanity, such as what happened to the Kurds.

	19-03-2003 23:38									#128
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I heard a rumor that U.S. government employees eat babies for breakfast, lunch and supper! Therefore it must be true. Even worse, I heard that our soldiers eat not only babies, but the babies' mothers, too! Therefore it must be true.

Gatekeeper

	19-03-2003 23:39									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Rah : Do you believe your admin spent billions, risks American lives, and fostered opposition against the US worldwide for the altruistic sake of saving Iraqis ?

Not at all. I was just showing that it is quite easy to influence peoples feelings by showing "STOCK FOOTAGE" pictures as arguements. While it can be quite effective, I not sure how I feel about using them. Sometimes they get in the way of rational discussions.

Willem, yes that still concerns me, but I'm sure a lot of opinion afterwards could still be influenced about how the US handles the aftermath.

On a side note, a cartoon I saw this morning had a daughter asking her father where the word war came from. He answered

We
Are
Right

	19-03-2003 23:46									#130
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand WTF is Canada doing to help anyone, besides themselves?

Helping you clean up in Afghanistan for one. I can list several more situations, but I'm not going to bother. Seems you're just interested in lashing out and maintaining that the US is the only country that cares about other people.

	19-03-2003 23:47									#131
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What's even funnier is that the person he was responding to is British...

	20-03-2003 00:04									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Notice how it's always another country that has to pay the cost for your "mistakes"? I wonder how you'd feel if this war was going to cost the US tens of thousands of lives. If you wouldn't be willing to go in that case, then what right have you to tell others that they'll be sacrificing their lives for the greater good?

Yet even though it was their mistake to begin with, we'll no doubt face retribution at the trade tabel for not going along with them. If they want to screw up their foreign affairs, they should be prepared to clean up their own mess.

	20-03-2003 00:05									#133
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quote: Originally posted by rah Not at all. I was just showing that it is quite easy to influence peoples feelings by showing "STOCK FOOTAGE" pictures as arguements. While it can be quite effective, I not sure how I feel about using them. Sometimes they get in the way of rational discussions.

Agreed.
I used these pictures merely to debunk the myth this "clean-up operation" will be anything else than chaos. Fine, I'll just continue calling your splendid little war a "slaughter".

quote: On a side note, a cartoon I saw this morning had a daughter asking her father where the word war came from. He answered We Are Right

So true. Worst thing is : everybody will find what he wants in this cartoon : pro-war people will believe war is necessary because "We" [Americans] are right, while anti-war people will see how the American bigotry leads to this slaughter.

	20-03-2003 00:07									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident and I don't expect tens of thousands of civilians to die. I expect less than 200 to die.

Then you are extremely naive!

	20-03-2003 00:13									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident well not that many people cared when americans lost their lives.

Give us a break! You had the whole world on your side after Sept. 11. We all grieved right along with you. Don't you dare say no one cared!

quote: It is human nature to dismiss those people who you have never met who are no where near where you live.

It's also human nature to have a sense of morality and compassion.

	20-03-2003 00:19									#136
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It's kids time !

quote: The Wolf and the Lamb By Jean de la Fontaine (1621 - 1695) The strongest is always right. We will prove it shortly A Lamb was quenching it's thirst In a clear stream; A starving Wolf suddently appears, looking for a meal, Brought here by hunger. "How dare you foul my water hole? Said the Wolf full of righteous fury: -You will be chastised for you temerity. -Sire, replies the Lamb, Your Majesty Need not be angry; But rather consider That I am drinking More than twenty feet Downstream from him; Therefore in no way Could I spoil his water. -Oh, yes you do, growled the cruel beast; And I heard that you spoke ill of me last year. -How could I, if I were not yet born? The Lamb persisted, I am still nursing. If it were not you, then it must have been your brother. -I don't have any. -Then it was one of your lot; Because you are always pestering me, You, your shepherds and your dogs. So I have been told: I must avenge myself." With that, deep in the forest, The Wolf carried off the Lamb, and ate it, Without further ado.

I know Saddam is not the lamb. I just wanted to illustrate where comes the fact that
We
Are
Right

Power, and nothing else, makes the US "right"

	20-03-2003 00:20									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I think most of that was just PC nonsense. It is always politically correct to have moment of silences and such.

You ungrateful twit! How dare you downplay the emotions of other nations felt after what happened. We were all shocked and disgusted and appalled. Here in Canada the whole country almost ground to a halt as we collectively expressed our grief for those that died.

God, I'm getting sick of you "ugly Americans" spouting off such nonsense! Open your eyes, there's a whole world out there, not just your own little corner of it.

	20-03-2003 00:25									#138
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War is worse than a 9/11 in every major city, every day ,as long as the war goes on.

	20-03-2003 00:27									#139
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Willem,

I'm sure lots of people cared. Unfortunately, the "you had it coming" crowd didn't miss a beat, and did a lot to drown out the sympathy - which was and is appreciated.

-Arrian

	20-03-2003 00:43									#140
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quote: Originally posted by My Wife Hates CIV I'll go on the record right now before the war (if you want to call it that) starts. There will be more freindly fire deaths (US) than real combat deaths. US forces will suffer only small numbers. Much like the first Gulf War. And even the freindly fire might not be that many. Less than 500 US deaths. On the Iraq side... it all depends on what happens as far as will they fight. More people in Iraq will be killed by air raids/missiles than by our (US) ground troops. This because most if not all will give up - those outside of the capital. Inside the capital - those iraqi might fight, but not for long. But this will not be a war. This is a clean up operation. It's over before it really even starts. And I'm not saying it's not a big operation... just that iraq really really military wise sucks compared to the US. USA!!!

Last time you didn't have to do urban warfare. You probably will this time. That could very well be like Mogadishu, but on a much larger scale More like Berlin or Stalingrad

The American soldiers will have the advantage of night vision and heavy air support, but that will not save them from casualties in close range combat.

And BTW, friendly fire is not!

	21-03-2003 03:56									#141
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This thread is probably redundant now.

	21-03-2003 04:23									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Taz This thread is probably redundant now.

Geez, you woke me up for that?

	21-03-2003 16:01									#143
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Yep!