18-03-2003 21:49									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Why are you trying to blame the US for this? Damned if you do, damned if you don't... I guess. We are warmnongers, right? I really don't think it was our decision, or Bagdad would no be called Disney Sand. I blame the UN.

Where in your quote of me am I blaming the US?

Sorry, lost me on that...

Perhaps you are mistaking my points with the fact that the US was the major power in the Gulf War?

	18-03-2003 21:57									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Oh... so the alternative was to allow him to have even more money... which by your own comments would have only meant that he had more money to spend on palaces and his army

My alternative would be to have kicked him out when we had the chance!

Failing that, I would have kept him on the rack and not given him any leeway. Sanction such as an arms embargo would be fine, but sanctions on certain medicines because they could be used for WMD are not.

We let up the pressure, because we thought that sanctions would do their work for us - although it still hasn't worked on Cuba yet...

quote: As you admit, he doesn't care about his own people... so the sanctions have only really limited the number of new palaces and his army

That is BS as your smilie proves...

All sanctions have done, is strengthen Saddam's hand and to provide another weapon for Saddam's arsenal - why gas your enemies when you can starve them for free!?

	18-03-2003 21:59									#63
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Oh of course, the sanctions are only useful as a way to encourage the people of Iraq to rebel against Saddam. I appreciate that. Sanctions are killing people in Iraq because Saddam is in power. It's the direct combination of Saddam and Sanctions. You can't say one or the other is to blame, it's the combination.

To me, you're amazing. Simply amazing.

Why should the USA give anything to a Hussein-led Iraq, OR North Korea ?
It's not mandated that the U.S. give anything, to anybody. It's a choice we make, to try and help.
To give to Hussein would be a glaring case of dumbass.

WTF is Canada doing to help anyone, besides themselves?

	18-03-2003 22:01									#64
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To answer the initial question :

I've seen one poster here on 'Poly falling in the category decribed in the head post.
He' supposed to be a DL, but I'm horrified such people even exist

	18-03-2003 22:02									#65
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Sanctions prevent everyone from trading with Iraq... Slowwy, not just the US.

	18-03-2003 22:07									#66
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand To me, you're amazing. Simply amazing. Why should the USA give anything to a Hussein-led Iraq, OR North Korea ? It's not mandated that the U.S. give anything, to anybody. It's a choice we make, to try and help. To give to Hussein would be a glaring case of dumbass. WTF is Canada doing to help anyone, besides themselves?

I thought I was supporting the position that sanctions aren't working so we need to do something else about Iraq. Surely the logical conclusion from that is that the only way to make Iraq better for the Iraqis is to get Saddam out.

	18-03-2003 22:09									#67
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And what's Canada got to do with anything? I'm not Canadian.

	18-03-2003 22:09									#68
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What's your point, Sava ?

	18-03-2003 22:10									#69
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS My alternative would be to have kicked him out when we had the chance!

On that we can agree... Unfortunately, Bush was trying to stay within the guidelines dictated by the UN at the time. He didn't have a world mandate to throw him out of office. He did the best he could within those constraints... it failed.

quote: Failing that, I would have kept him on the rack and not given him any leeway. Sanction such as an arms embargo would be fine, but sanctions on certain medicines because they could be used for WMD are not.

I disagree... As people have pointed out, he doesn't care about his people... so who is to say that the medicines would ever have ended up in the hands of the people? Simple facts would imply that they never would have.

quote: We let up the pressure, because we thought that sanctions would do their work for us - although it still hasn't worked on Cuba yet...

Yeah... a mistake. But Bush really had no choice. It wasn't part of the UN mandate, so he tried to play within the rules.

quote: That is BS as your smilie proves...

Partially... but there is still a lot of truth in the comment.

quote: All sanctions have done, is strengthen Saddam's hand and to provide another weapon for Saddam's arsenal - why gas your enemies when you can starve them for free!?

I agree... but to totally blame the US for ALL the deaths is just a joke. If one is going to be so black and white about it, and just blame one party, Sadam deserves to be the bad guy here. He is the more responsible one here.

But since it isn't black and white, both sides deserve some blame. The US for sticking to a game plan that wasn't working (and after 12 years, have finally decided on a different course of action) And Sadam for intentionally letting his people die and starve when he could have done something about it

	18-03-2003 22:12									#70
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But Ming, before the sanctions, the Iraqi people weren't as bad off. 60 minutes did a great report on this about 4 months ago.

	18-03-2003 22:17									#71
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Before Sadam went to war, the people weren't as bad off either Many of the problems for the people caused by the sanctions are due to their leader, not the sanctions

	18-03-2003 22:19									#72
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As Mike put it... both are to blame. But the sanctions are because of the leader. I would hope that the UN would recognize that the sanctions aren't really doing anything to affect Saddam, it's the people that are suffering.

So Ming, if sanctions aren't working, why have them?

	18-03-2003 22:20									#73
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Sava... you should read my earlier posts...

	18-03-2003 23:28									#74
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why is this thread not closed, but lincoln's thread was?

	18-03-2003 23:36									#75
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I say, let this thread be toast: it is amazing, the level of hatred and mistrust so many of the pro-war side have for the anti-war side (and vice versa) that two different posters would come out and say :"hey look they want iraqis to die so they can hate us more".

The tone of this thread was set by the thread's author. Others just ran with it from there.

Gatekeeper

	18-03-2003 23:50									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident why is this thread not closed, but lincoln's thread was?

From my post earlier in this thread

quote: Originally posted by rah Keep it to a civil discussion, or it's toast. RAH I've already closed one similiar one this morning and won't need much of an excuse to do the same here.

Lincoln's tone started much harsher. I was still going to close this one also, but I thought I'd give it a chance and just issued a warning. With just a few exceptions, there has actually been some coherent discussions here so I'm glad I didn't toast it. In the coming week, I (and the other mods) anticipate having to make a considerable amount of similar judgement calls. I'm sure we won't be perfect, but we'll try our best. Everyone's cooperation will be appreciated. And lack of it will be appreciated differently.

	18-03-2003 23:55									#77
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand WTF is Canada doing to help anyone, besides themselves?

I always knew MikeH seemed like a nice guy. Thought he was from the other side of the Atlantic, though.

	18-03-2003 23:56									#78
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And I was betting on a thread closure at 8:20 a.m. EST.

WTF?

	19-03-2003 00:02									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Sava... you should read my earlier posts...

Forgive me, I'm generally retarded... I read your posts but my question still stands.

quote: So Ming, if sanctions aren't working, why have them?

Well? I agree the sanctions are in place because of Saddam. Their presence is his fault. Now why keep them when its obvious the people are the ones suffering?

Rah, Ming, MtG: you guys are doing great in your "judgement" calls so far... keep up the good work. And even though this thread started out bad, somewhat intelligent discussions have taken place.

	19-03-2003 00:16									#80
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Commons debate still going on here in the UK, 3 ministers resigned (1 moderately serious, 2 junior ministers probably sacrificing their political careers).

---

It is senseless to talk of 'fault' in war. Saddam Hussein is a very unpleasant man and a terrible leader for the Iraqis. He is motivated solely by the desire to preserve his own power base and that of his family. He has no respect for the international community, believing (as do all dictators) that so long as he has the military power to enforce his will, others will do as they're told. He and his administration absolutely believe that they are in the right, blinded by megalomania and ideology.

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George W. Bush is an affable man and a mixed leader for the United States. He is motivated principally by the desire to 'do a good job' and to preserve the United States position in the world, and his and his family's poistion at the top. He is frustrated that the International Community hasn't done what he wanted it to, and he and his administration believe that (a) overwhelming military force should mean that others listen to them and (b) that their ideology (free markets, agressive foreign policy, christianity and controlled democracy) .

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Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz are just plain scary

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For the first time, two modern western democracies are poised to invade another country so as to effect a coup d'etat. The damage WE have done to the U.N and to NATO may never be repaired, fatally weakening the west's position in the world, which is good news for China and Russia and bad news for us. I find it very offensive to our intelligence that the UK and US governments insist that it's all the French's fault - they might be bloody-minded, but there was a majority against war which is why we never went for a 2nd resolution.

In short, our governments have lied to us, repeatedly, again and again. They have drawn false parallels between now and 1930s Europe (Germany INVADED her neighbours and demanded territory, Saddam is in no position to do either). There is a time and a place for the use of force against tyrants, but don't claim that the U.N failed because of others. It was OUR demand for war that weakened the U.N.
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And it's on all our shoulders that responsibility for the deaths will fall; US/Iraqi/Kurd/British.....and all those that will result from instability in the region and terrorism at home.

	19-03-2003 00:48									#81
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quote: Originally posted by oberstein I find it very offensive to our intelligence that the UK and US governments insist that it's all the French's fault - they might be bloody-minded, but there was a majority against war which is why we never went for a 2nd resolution.

Perhaps it was because of France rejecting proposals before they'd even been made..

	19-03-2003 00:54									#82
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thank you oberstein... plus the will to go to war and to blind up the people is such that even obvious lies for whom governments would be resigning in different times are now just a part of the job to convince the people...

we the people are taken as nonexistant... ignoring and plain lying repeatedly to us without consequences for their chairs shows us that at the beginning of 21st century our democratic system is slowly failing us.

	19-03-2003 01:12									#83
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Oberstein :
You wouldn't imagine how many posters here, including very bright people, still believe the comparison with the 1930's. IMO, it comes from the Americans knowing the outside world mostly through WW2 (when we talk about history, Americans talk about WW2 more than anybody else), and it has affected their understanding. The peace proposals of France, whatever ill-motivated, have been dubbed "appeasement" by many people. Saddam has been compared to Hitler, and people seemed to really believe it.
The government's lies have worked very well.

	19-03-2003 01:15									#84
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The peace proposals of France have been motivated by self interest. Not some High minded moral code. If you believe otherwise, you're the one that's the victim of propaganda.

RAH
And yes, the same could be said about the US proposals too.

	19-03-2003 01:22									#85
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quote: Originally posted by rah The peace proposals of France have been motivated by self interest. Not some High minded moral code. If you believe otherwise, you're the one that's the victim of propaganda.

Who said the opposite ?

	19-03-2003 01:23									#86
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saying that France is not acting in self interest is totally true.. however this time by luck or whatever they are the right side of the fence... however the US and UK just breaking up what they predcessors have been building for the past 50 years backed up by consistent lying is certainly a sad state of affairs.

I guess we are just experiencing a bad spell in a democratic process

	19-03-2003 01:28									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Who said the opposite ?

Apon a quick review of this and a few other thread, you are correct, you never said the opposite. My apologies. You are not a victim of propaganda.

RAH

	19-03-2003 02:10									#88
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quote: Originally posted by rah The peace proposals of France have been motivated by self interest. Not some High minded moral code. If you believe otherwise, you're the one that's the victim of propaganda. RAH And yes, the same could be said about the US proposals too.

Two over-patriotic and arrogant nations on collission course. But this time, a majority of the world is supporting the French view.

	19-03-2003 02:10									#89
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What happened?

	19-03-2003 02:49									#90
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I am worried about United States' position in today's world.

On 9/11 we lost 3,000 lives from terrorist attacks. Yet, in the past decades, Latin American countries and SE Asian countries have losted hundreds of thousands of lives from terrorist attacks. Some of these terrorist groups were trained by the CIA and the School of America.

So we wonder why post-9/11 sympathy had long runned thin.

And we're doing a great job in antagonizing our allies with our drum-beatings over upcoming war against Iraq. Yes, France has its own selfish interests in trying to prevent war against Iraq, but United States is also guilty of providing chemical weapons to Saddam Hueissen. After all, this is one of the dictators who was allied with the United States. In the past, United States has propped up dictatorships all across the world.

No one can predict how the chain of events will unfold, but I am sincerely worried about my country and our position in today's world.

The United States needs to stop sponsoring dictatorships in this world, and the United States needs to abolish all programs that train terrorist groups in other countries. I think these are the two main reasons why so many other countries are alienated by our actions