19-03-2003 02:58									#91
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MrFun : there is also a skin-deep reason which is the terrible diplomacy by Bush and gang. It gave consistence with every prejudices people could have about arrogant American cowboys.
To quote Arrian : "[The US] basically gave the world the finger"
It might sound very small, but it helps explaining how the sympathy from Sept. 11 has already been botched.

	19-03-2003 02:59									#92
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So many people complain about how the U.S. set up dictatorships all over the globe. So, what happens when the U.S. prepares to remove one? They still complain.

	19-03-2003 03:48									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Verto So many people complain about how the U.S. set up dictatorships all over the globe. So, what happens when the U.S. prepares to remove one? They still complain.

What people complain about is that US is changing governments in other countries, good or bad.

	19-03-2003 03:52									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Verto So many people complain about how the U.S. set up dictatorships all over the globe. So, what happens when the U.S. prepares to remove one? They still complain.

Unfortunately, these regime changes are not a walk in the park. At least not for those on the wrong side of the gun. Pro-war people seem to forgive the very existence of this wrong side.

	19-03-2003 04:03									#95
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well how about this?:

we made a mistake supporting Saddam Hussein in the 80's.

Now it is time to correct that mistake.

	19-03-2003 04:07									#96
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Notice how it's always another country that has to pay the cost for your "mistakes"?

I wonder how you'd feel if this war was going to cost the US tens of thousands of lives.

If you wouldn't be willing to go in that case, then what right have you to tell others that they'll be sacrificing their lives for the greater good?

	19-03-2003 04:20									#97
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whatever

should we just leave the mistake in power then?

You people do not provide any sensibel alternatives.

I'm listening.

	19-03-2003 04:31									#98
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Sensible alternative:

Saddam has been contained for 12 years and has basically behaved himself. The knowledge that bad behaviour would be met with an invasion meant that he was willing to live inside his own borders. Out of nowhere you've decided that this is unacceptable? It's worked since I was in elementary school.

Why is it that he's become so dangerous that you have to sacrifice tens of thousands of Iraqis to get rid of him?

	19-03-2003 04:32									#99
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And I asked you a question: would you want a war if the casualties likely to be suffered by Iraqi civilians would be US civilians instead?

	19-03-2003 04:36									#100
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How do you know there won't be U.S. civilians killed?

and I don't expect tens of thousands of civilians to die. I expect less than 200 to die.

Most Iraqis will surrender. This war will not be bad at all. I hope.

	19-03-2003 04:37									#101
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I didn't say that there wouldn't be.

But I also know that they'll be a thousandth of what the Iraqis get.

10 000 dead. 3 WTCs

Are you willing to do it?

	19-03-2003 04:54									#102
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no I'm not wiling to do it.

but that won't be necessary.

The U.S. will not be directly responsible for the deaths of 10,000 Iraqis. Of this, I'm certain.

You could say we are indirectly responsible if Saddam gasses his own people or something.

	19-03-2003 04:59									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident no I'm not wiling to do it. but that won't be necessary. The U.S. will not be directly responsible for the deaths of 10,000 Iraqis. Of this, I'm certain. You could say we are indirectly responsible if Saddam gasses his own people or something.

I'm pretty sure the official estimate of "collateral damage" is 40,000+

	19-03-2003 04:59									#104
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10 000 is not very many in the scope of modern war.

That many will die almost certainly.

And it disturbs me when I see how glibly people dismiss their deaths.

	19-03-2003 05:01									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger And it disturbs me when I see how glibly people dismiss their deaths.

They are only towelheads, why should anyone care?

	19-03-2003 05:03									#106
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well not that many people cared when americans lost their lives.

It is human nature to dismiss those people who you have never met who are no where near where you live.

But I don't hold it against them. I have nothing against the people who cheered when the WTC was attacked. They have the right to do that. And I do not wish for their death.

	19-03-2003 05:09									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Do explain why you are clamouring for an attack on Iraq. If there wouldn't be a war, there wouldn't be bombs dropped. The root cause of civilian causalties is a trigger happy GWB administration. Please explain how this is related to the left you are trying so hard to demonise. Please explain which bit of the post is supposed to be funny.

The funny thing is that what I said is evidently true in your case. To the other more reasonable posters on the left I was not seriously suggesting that they would gloat in civilian casualities.

And I am not "clamouring for an attack" and I never stated that I was. If you have evidence otherwise then please post it here. The root cause of civilian casualities btw is Saddam's incessent desire to put them in harms way to protect himself and his immoral dictatorship over the innocent.

	19-03-2003 05:12									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident well not that many people cared when americans lost their lives.

WTC : international minute of silence. Europe-wide 3 minutes of silence. Many minutes of silence observed in private gatherings outside the US. All non-rogue governments expressing their "unconditional support" to the US war against error (such a support Bush botched very quickly, his lack of diplomatic skills are impressive )

I have yet to see an event where people worldwide cared more for the victims. You can bet no anti-war people will have minutes of silence for the Iraqi victims.

	19-03-2003 05:22									#109
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I think most of that was just PC nonsense. It is always politically correct to have moment of silences and such.

	19-03-2003 05:25									#110
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Everyone:

Please excuse my hasty first post on this thread. I thought it was a witty response to the thread starter who evidently wanted to start a flame war with the right. I do not seriously think that anyone here (including UR) would like to see innocent blood spilled anywhere. And I certainly take no delight in this war or any other war for any cause. I seriously weep for both the citizens of Iraq and the Americans who will lose their lives in this conflict and there is no stone that should be left unturned to prevent it before it begins.

	19-03-2003 05:39									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I think most of that was just PC nonsense. It is always politically correct to have moment of silences and such.

Agreed. However, these symbolical acts reflected how much people did care. I remember Sept. 11 very well in France : the towers collapsed at ca. 16:00, and the major channels + news networks (news networks are minor channels) only talked about this, with nearly no information coverage from the rest of the world. From 16:00 to the morning after. People talked almost only about it, I heard there was a peak in phone calls (I have been called 3 times about this, and I'm really not a phonephile).
I'm sure the commotion was the same in all the West, and was more significant than most things in other aprts of the world.

Saying people didn't care about American deaths in WTC is really false.
I agree people would care much less if they learned Gulf War 2 made 3000 American casualties. It hasn't the same symbolical force than a surprising and murderous attack on the very symbol of your power.

	19-03-2003 06:07									#112
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I'm sure all you folks going on about containment would be more than happy to chip in some money and contribute the requisite military personnel needed to keep the pressure on Saddam, hmm? You'd also help with the construction of facilities to house said personnel and material?

It took more than 200,000 troops sitting on Iraq's border to even get Saddam to budge a damn *inch* on *some* issues with the inspectors. You think that's cheap for the U.S. taxpayer? It sure as hell isn't, and if you like that sort of containment and its intermittent results, fork over the cold, hard cash to help pay for it. I don't mind containment — hell, the West did it for more than 40 years regarding communism — but it's time for the rest of the first world nations to shoulder, at the very least, some of the on-going financial costs of containment, if not troops.

I'm all for a Marshall Plan II as well for Afghanistan and Iraq. But I bet taxpayers — both U.S. domestic and those of our esteemed allies — won't put up with it. It would affect their retirement plans, after all.

Gatekeeper

	19-03-2003 06:08									#113
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quote: I'm sure all you folks going on about containment would be more than happy to chip in some money and contribute the requisite military personnel needed to keep the pressure on Saddam, hmm? You'd also help with the construction of facilities to house said personnel and material?

How many men were you keeping in Saudi Arabia again? 5 000?

You could have kept them there for a couple of centuries for the cost of going to war.

And the rest of the world already paid for Gulf I...

	19-03-2003 06:17									#114
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Oh, yes, and those 5,000 personnel were just so effective at convincing Saddam to let the inspectors back in after 1998.

	19-03-2003 08:13									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident well how about this?: we made a mistake supporting Saddam Hussein in the 80's. Now it is time to correct that mistake.

It could not have been a mistake -- the United States intelligence had to have known of Saddam's dictatorship rule, and his crimes against humanity during the 1980's, and yet United States was allied with Saddam.

There was no mistake about it -- United States willingly allied itself with a dictator.

	19-03-2003 19:58									#116
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Of course it did. Anything to hasten the downfall of the USSR.

However, now, they don't have that reason and so they find it morally repugnant and are about to do something about it.

And when you think about it. They are about the only ones that can do anything about their past decisions. They have both the military power and the responsibility to fix what they had to do in the past.

	19-03-2003 20:00									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Oh, yes, and those 5,000 personnel were just so effective at convincing Saddam to let the inspectors back in after 1998.

Who cares?

	19-03-2003 20:39									#118
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I'll go on the record right now before the war (if you want to call it that) starts.

There will be more freindly fire deaths (US) than real combat deaths. US forces will suffer only small numbers. Much like the first Gulf War. And even the freindly fire might not be that many. Less than 500 US deaths.

On the Iraq side... it all depends on what happens as far as will they fight. More people in Iraq will be killed by air raids/missiles than by our (US) ground troops. This because most if not all will give up - those outside of the capital. Inside the capital - those iraqi might fight, but not for long.

But this will not be a war. This is a clean up operation. It's over before it really even starts. And I'm not saying it's not a big operation... just that iraq really really military wise sucks compared to the US.

USA!!!

	19-03-2003 20:55									#119
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A "clean-up operation" which will look like this :





Bravo

Last edited by Spiffor on 19-03-2003 at 21:04

	19-03-2003 22:04									#120
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I can only speak about the UK but 9/11 was massive here. There was huge sympathy for the US, for weeks our firefighters were out collecting money for the families of US firefighters and the other victims and people were giving generously, I certainly did.

Everyone I know was very moved by the scale of it, the images and the stories of bravery from the rescue teams and the normal New York citizens.

Disagreeing with Bush and Blair over this war doesn't change that for me.