06-01-2004 05:39									#421
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quote: MZ's comment about 'tigers' was well put...as in paper tigers.

*ahem*



Anyways, I agree with vondrack's reading. We should prod mongoose, ASAP.

	06-01-2004 05:49									#422
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Couldn't resist that one since you're stepping down as consul nye. Though I suppose I should edit that last sentence to put it on a different line since it isn't really part of the main thought in my post.

	06-01-2004 06:04									#423
	Inflate your Upload Space

Next time someone sees eklektikos in chat, could you tell him that he needs to play is PBEM turns more often (especially the one with Dominae)?

Thanks.


Dominae

	06-01-2004 06:27									#424
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No real problem, Rhoth. I was looking for a place to use my spiffy new found smilie.

	06-01-2004 07:15									#425
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You know... I stared at that smiley for a good solid minute trying to figure out what it was... I was like "what the **** is this crazy little goblin nye has?"

	06-01-2004 07:19									#426
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I agree. If they'll sign a temp peace now, they can declare war on us whenever they want in the future.

Sounds like this thing may work out with less trouble than we thought.

We'll accept that "compromise" and continue happily on our way.

Also note, once we get rid of the WW issue with GCA, I really have no desire to further negotiate with them at all, about anything.

Big Kudos to MZ for not *****slapping Lucky during that chat.

--Togas

	06-01-2004 07:36									#427
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Also note, once we get rid of the WW issue with GCA, I really have no desire to further negotiate with them at all, about anything.

me neither. They can rot in the other side of the world for all I care.

quote: Big Kudos to MZ for not *****slapping Lucky during that chat. --Togas

It was hard.

I especially found it very bad taste Lucky's not-so-subtle insulting of our teammates as well as CFC, note that this was after the "official" part of the chat but nevertheless reflects very poorly on his treatment of others.

What I got out of this is that regardless of him "roleplaying", he is a very sore loser and has little tact when dealing with others. I am glad GCA is done for, and I am especially glad I am not in the C3C ISDG because he is not a person I would enjoy playing against anymore.

Also a word of advice to the C3C ISDGers. I took a look at the forums at CDG and saw some rather unpleasant remarks from our side towards Lucky. Now, I know we all have little doubt in that he likely cheated in this game, but bringing up these things out of the blue, for no purpose whatsoever since they were not part of the real debate, is just plain WRONG and makes our team look bad. Now, I know I am not on that team and I shouldn't give a damn, but at least for the sake of those who ARE on that team as well as the fact that we as apolytonians have certain sentimental attachment to any Apolyton team, I would strongly suggest that our folks maintain a certain standard of courtesy even when dealing with people we hate. Yes, it is tough, but being b*tches gets us nowhere, and might hurt us in the other game, god forbid that we get GCA as neighbors with iron and much better land.

-MZ

	06-01-2004 08:10									#428
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HAHA!!

It would only hurt us where GCA is concerned. Let me put it like this; CDG, CFC, APO all have tasted some of GCA's "reload tactics" therefore all of those teams and the members on them are already aligned against GCA to begin with.

I will not aplogize for both being a member of Apolyton AND telling Lucky how I see it. Diplomacy is for those that you can reason with....Try diplomacy with a 2 year old and tell me how far you get!

	06-01-2004 11:07									#429
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As usual there is no point in arguing this, I just hope that for the sake of the C3C ISDG team you guys don't screw up before the game even starts. But anyway, I share no allegiance with that team nor will I join it in the future so it is not of my concern but it is advice that I feel you would be better off to pay heed.

	06-01-2004 19:25									#430
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Just read the chat.

Wow, what an *******.

I agree with Vondrack's interpretation - let's press for "in game" peace with the express understanding that it's only a game mechanics thing and that "for real" we're still at war.

-Arrian

	06-01-2004 19:42									#431
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Kudos to MZ for this almost inhumane feat of self-control (while maintaining a fluent and witty barrage of replies)!

Or, does it happen to be that you like being abused (as our representative, that is)?


To the point- in game peace is great, any grudges GCA keeps against us could eventually hurt their new hosts (I just can't imagine GWT being able to create serious cooperative relations with them after reading this chatlog). GCA on the other side of the sea means more troubles for their two neighbors, and presents a unique opportunity to bring CGN closer to us, especially now that GWT has their GA, while we can use our upcoming tech edge to help maintain a stalemate...

So, MZ, start clearing up your schedule, we've plenty of work ahead of us.

	06-01-2004 23:02									#432
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to vondrack's interpretation all the agreements after that.

to MZ for having the patience of Jobe.

to the idea that Canadian tigers need boots.

to having these yahoos in the C3C ISDG.

But on this last point, there may be a self-correcting mechanism here. GCA will have p***** off so many other sites, that they may be public enemy#1 in every game they enter from here on. The others, including ourselves, may target them for immediate elimimination. Sort of like white blood cells dealing with an infection - if I have my medical analogy correct.

	06-01-2004 23:10									#433
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quote: Originally posted by Beta But on this last point, there may be a self-correcting mechanism here. GCA will have p***** off so many other sites, that they may be public enemy#1 in every game they enter from here on. The others, including ourselves, may target them for immediate elimimination. Sort of like white blood cells dealing with an infection - if I have my medical analogy correct.

I think this maybe the way its going. He has already pissed off the mods as well.

And we at the other IDG appreciate the advice MZ but BigFree and I have already discussed it in private, and I believe we actually reached a meeting of the minds on that issue.

Back on topic.

Take the peace in game and run like hell. Who cares if he has a grudge or not.

GCA is done for as a power in this game. After we get in game peace, then I say screw em.

	07-01-2004 00:08									#434
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Lets make sure we send them peace "accepted" this turn around. If they don't accept it themselves, then we go directly to mongoose with chat logs in hand.

	07-01-2004 05:41									#435
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Just read the log. Kudos to MZ for handling that, you have our thanks.

I agree with vondrack's interpretation and consider that acceptable.

As for the C3C ISDG, I'm not on that team either, but please pummel this guy out of existence as a public service.

	07-01-2004 19:19									#436
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos As for the C3C ISDG, I'm not on that team either, but please pummel this guy out of existence as a public service.

I can neither confirm nor deny this but this may already be happening diplomatically

	07-01-2004 19:56									#437
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Lets consider this to be an "Extended Cease Fire". Maybe if we send a Message to them, with that in Mind, then we can get the ingame peace

[proposed wording]
We, the people of Apolyton, in recognition of the fact that a full and lasting peace with the people of GameCatchers is not possible, hereby propose an Extended Cease Fire.

What this will entail, is that both parties Agree that Peace is not possible AND that actual Combat between us is also not possible. That both would agree to an In-game Peace (the extended cease fire) and that a state of war will still contunue. That the Actual fighting between us will likely resume, but not for some time to come, because of the distance between us.
[/proposal]

I think, from what they were saying in the chat, that they could work with this.

Also, I would like to point out this little thing that Lucky had clued in on

quote: [16:29] [Lucky] oh, I didnīt know we are dead and I didnīt know you destroyed even a majority of our forces

There was a few times, during the war, when the MoW was surprised as the the number of GCA units left to fight us. So, it IS entirely possible, that they had gotten a larger number of units over to their new Home than we had first thought. We need to get with CFC about this further, to see if GCA's streinght (compaired to them) has changed at all, after the end of the war.

E_T

	07-01-2004 20:08									#438
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Lets consider this to be an "Extended Cease Fire". Maybe if we send a Message to them, with that in Mind, then we can get the ingame peace [proposed wording] We, the people of Apolyton, in recognition of the fact that a full and lasting peace with the people of GameCatchers is not possible, hereby propose an Extended Cease Fire. What this will entail, is that both parties Agree that Peace is not possible AND that actual Combat between us is also not possible. That both would agree to an In-game Peace (the extended cease fire) and that a state of war will still contunue. That the Actual fighting between us will likely resume, but not for some time to come, because of the distance between us. [/proposal] I think, from what they were saying in the chat, that they could work with this. Also, I would like to point out this little thing that Lucky had clued in on There was a few times, during the war, when the MoW was surprised as the the number of GCA units left to fight us. So, it IS entirely possible, that they had gotten a larger number of units over to their new Home than we had first thought. We need to get with CFC about this further, to see if GCA's streinght (compaired to them) has changed at all, after the end of the war. E_T

E_T - good proposal.

And yes - I think he let slip the matter of the number of units they may or may not have. He may have done it deliberately to mislead us - but I doubt it.

We may also want to alert CGN that there may be another force on their continent to contend with.

	07-01-2004 22:04									#439
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Did we ever kill that army of theirs? A friendly 3x pikeman army placed at the right spot could really help GWT out if CGN is trying to launch a counterattack at some point. Some of that "you didn't kill us, we evacuated" talk is just wounded pride, though.

The support costs must be hurting them, unless they've gone into anarchy. Otherwise, GWT will have to subsidize, or give them more cities.

Here's a question: do in-game hostilities resume once one of us has navigation? If so, we've got a big problem looming in the future.

-Arrian

	08-01-2004 01:36									#440
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Well if that is the case, IF we get them to atleast declare peace, we get the Happiness bonus when they redeclare. At a -30 points, as long as there is no real fighting or such, then we will benifit.

BUT, we should try to be prepared to launch our own offencive when that time finally comes.

E_T

	18-02-2004 23:06									#441
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Here's a funny PM Lucky sent me via CDG's site.

quote: I am writing a PM since I do not want to disrupt the constructive discussion in the thread, unlike you do. I am very sorry if you do not understand the basics of the game and if you really think that only using battle calculators tells you the correct outcome of fighting in civ. You obviously do not have as much civ experience as you think then. #1. For the whole CDG war we showed very clearly that the results of the fighting was equal to or even worse than the calculated battle results. Same for when we attacked CFC, however interestingly though not when they attacked us. #2. We showed those complete calculations to mongoose, we explained the logic behind our moves and let him replay certain turns where he got the very same outcome as we did. #3. In ALL cases mongoose has seen nothing surprising while replaying a turn. He didnīt find a single issue that looked questionable. And he ruled that everything was fair in ALL cases. So, what else do you want? Maybe we should tell our opponents next time exactly how we attack and exactly what our strategies are? I do not care at all what you think. Your displayed behaviour in all UN forums has been that of a not even teenaged kid that likes to go around accusing people and disrupting discussions. And one that often doesnīt have the faintest idea what he is talking about. I have proven myself often enough. I know I can claim to understand most if not all Civ3 game mechanics, looking at my results in the many Civ3 GOTMs I played, as BETA tester for C3C mastering the higher difficulty levels for the Conquests, as well as in several MP and PBEM games as well of course. And not ONCE has anybody accused me of cheating. Not once before this ISDG started. And interestingly those that have similar public civ experience as I do did not accuse me of anything either, but those that never appeared in any of the public events do. Just an example to show you why a battle calculator is nice and all, but not the ultima ratio for civ fighting. Did you know that when attacking an unfortified Numidian Mercenary (or other 3def points unit) on plains, it does NOT matter whether you attack with a horsemen or a swordmen? Save for the fact that the horsemen can retreat. Well, it makes no difference, no matter what your battle calculator tells you. The RNG generator (with preserve random seed of course) creates the exact same sequence for a horsemen as it does for a swordmen. It only uses another sequence when the ATT/DEF difference is bigger, like attacking with a warrior, or with a Med Inf. Just one example why your calculations donīt mean much. So save your accusations for other kids your age and grow up (no matter how old your really are, itīs your behaviour that counts). Until you have solid golden proof that we cheated, and this is not possible since we didnīt, just shut up! Sincerely Lucky

	18-02-2004 23:09									#442
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quote: Did you know that when attacking an unfortified Numidian Mercenary (or other 3def points unit) on plains, it does NOT matter whether you attack with a horsemen or a swordmen? Save for the fact that the horsemen can retreat. Well, it makes no difference, no matter what your battle calculator tells you. The RNG generator (with preserve random seed of course) creates the exact same sequence for a horsemen as it does for a swordmen. It only uses another sequence when the ATT/DEF difference is bigger, like attacking with a warrior, or with a Med Inf.

I'm not really sure what he means by this. Whatever it is, it's news to me.


Dominae

	18-02-2004 23:23									#443
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BF, Did you send a reply saying to F. Off?



And whats this about the Swordsman and the horse on plains?

Isn't one 3 attack and the other 2?

That doesn't make a difference?

Kind of funny how he says no one ever accused him of cheating before. Ive heard rumor of that going back to CIV 2 games.

	18-02-2004 23:33									#444
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Did you know that when attacking an unfortified Numidian Mercenary (or other 3def points unit) on plains, it does NOT matter whether you attack with a horsemen or a swordmen? Save for the fact that the horsemen can retreat. Well, it makes no difference, no matter what your battle calculator tells you. The RNG generator (with preserve random seed of course) creates the exact same sequence for a horsemen as it does for a swordmen. It only uses another sequence when the ATT/DEF difference is bigger, like attacking with a warrior, or with a Med Inf.

What the **** is this? No difference between using a 3-attack unit and a 2-attack unit? If that is actually true, then the combat system actually is FUBARed.

-Arrian

	18-02-2004 23:33									#445
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man bigfree has been pwnd.

	19-02-2004 00:07									#446
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel man bigfree has been pwnd.

Just wait till you see the reply...



btw, what the heck is 'pwnd'?

	19-02-2004 00:12									#447
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I have sent a PM to Lucky and ulalume on CDG informing him that I am the one who ran the odds on GCA and that I believe, based upon those odds, that GCA cheated. I welcome Lucky to send me proof that GCA did not cheat, since I certainly do not wish to be responsible for saying that GCA cheated if they are in fact clean.

A number of other things attached to that.

I made it clear that I was PMing them not in my capacity as a Consul of Apolyton, but as a personal message since I was responsible (in part) for the accusation against their team. I felt this was only fair if GCA really thinks they can proove their innocense.

Frankly, I'd like to see what they did. If they're willing to admit HOW they did it... I want to see it.

	19-02-2004 00:14									#448
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree btw, what the heck is 'pwnd'?

I have no clue I saw cool kids type that and was trying (sigh and failing) to be cool. I'm not l33t I'm a poseur.

	19-02-2004 00:17									#449
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@ Sleepy.

I too have no idea what pwnd means.

Holy ****, Arnelos.

I really don't see how any of this (BF's post, his PM exchange with Lucky, and now your PM to Lucky) is going to do any good. Even if they did cheat, we cannot prove it, and Lucky would never admit it anyway.

-Arrian

	19-02-2004 00:20									#450
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I have sent a PM to Lucky and ulalume on CDG informing him that I am the one who ran the odds on GCA and that I believe, based upon those odds, that GCA cheated. I welcome Lucky to send me proof that GCA did not cheat, since I certainly do not wish to be responsible for saying that GCA cheated if they are in fact clean.

How exactly can they prove to you that they haven't cheated? They've already provided their orders to Mongoose, who replicated their turns.