03-01-2004 05:47									#391
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I say just go to the UN. Chatting with that guy will yield nothing good, as can be deduced from his letter.

	03-01-2004 05:49									#392
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However, if a chat is desired... I volunteer to put on my asbestos and my calm face if the FAM wants any help.

	03-01-2004 05:56									#393
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[igor voice]
But Master, I wanted FLAMES!!
[/voice]

	03-01-2004 08:05									#394
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Togas's message sounds fine to me...as nye pointed out, why are we bothering to negotiate with them at all?

	03-01-2004 08:18									#395
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So that we can give the appearance to have tried to work it out without having to finally resort to the UN.

If we ARE able to do that, all the better. But then, I'm not going to hold my breath....

E_T

	03-01-2004 08:28									#396
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Hmm, from that tone GCA is probably very willing to talk -so that they can yell at us, call us names and generally taunt us, make meaningless threats and such.

Clearly they had no intention of making peace with us EVER - and their talk of reparations was likely to demand thousands in gold and/or all of their territory back...

It is definitely possible from that tone of defiance that GCA may ignore any ruling by Mongoose or UN vote, so what can we do then? Can Mongoose take over their civ and make peace if he has their password? And what if they completely refuse to cooperate by doing even more ridiculous tactics like taking forever with their turns? Is it moral or feasible to eliminate them from the game by razing their city or are there other options?

btw nye, I don't even think asbestos will be flame retardant enough to withstand the Lucky flames in any chat...

	03-01-2004 08:57									#397
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Screw a chat, that idiot bastard is not worth our time. We bring this up to Mongoose and the UN plain and simple. The moment I see Lucky in chat I'd probably let out a rant that would make a sailor blush.

If it is ok with the team I can talk to mongoose next time I catch him on MSN.

	03-01-2004 09:17									#398
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HAHA

MZ...go on a rant...

About time!

It is high time to go to mongoose. If GCA objects to his consequent ruling then he can gift the two cites GWT gave GCA and diband any settlers they may have and VIOLA, there are gone!

	03-01-2004 09:20									#399
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Maybe it would make our case better if one or two of us braved the lion's den to gather a log?

	03-01-2004 09:27									#400
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I'll volunteer. I'd like to test my mettle to see if I've fully embraced my softer, gentler side, or if there's a bitter b*stard inside just waiting to vent.

And, you're right, a log could be helpful, so long as it's clearly a one sided hatefest.

--Togas

	03-01-2004 10:05									#401
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the following email was sent to Lucky:

quote: Please meet with me at irc.apolyton.net to chat. Meet in channel #isdgfamtalks Despite what you may think, we welcome your visit and hope that you can set your emotions aside and agree to talk with us. --Togas, Foreign Affairs Minister of Apolyton

	03-01-2004 13:06									#402
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I will refrain from talking to mongoose until we talk with Lucky. Togas will not be the only one who will try to embrace his softer gentler side...

	04-01-2004 00:57									#403
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Enter the flamewar!

	04-01-2004 02:50									#404
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Well, well, well. It seems that all of us, including myself are forgetting some very basic game rules.

Indeed WW will not reduce itself on it's own so long as the war continues. However...

WW is reduced when you make peace with any civ you are at war with. If we are unsuccessful with Lucky and the UN, then the course is clear. War with CFC, and then peace. Rinse and repeat as necessary to reduce WW to 0.

This should be tested and verified in PBEM, but that is how it would work in SP. If this works the same way in PBEM, it reduces the... importance of the issue and therefore the passions can be left aside as well.

We might then approach Lucky with tongue in cheek and see if they can be brought back to civility. If they cannot, then we can enjoy ourselves a little as he turns red and his head explodes.

	04-01-2004 02:59									#405
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither WW is reduced when you make peace with any civ you are at war with. If we are unsuccessful with Lucky and the UN, then the course is clear. War with CFC, and then peace. Rinse and repeat as necessary to reduce WW to 0.

Oh my, I'll laugh real hard if the team thinks this is okay while friendly GA triggering (with CFC) is an exploit.

Go go super-adaptable moral standards!


Dominae

	04-01-2004 05:04									#406
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Oh my, I'll laugh real hard if the team thinks this is okay while friendly GA triggering (with CFC) is an exploit. Go go super-adaptable moral standards! Dominae

It's an exploit countering an exploit. We would have no need for it if Mr. Lucky and his gang of merry *******s would actually have the balls to play this game decently. Or what, you'd prefer we grin and bear WW up until the industrial age?

	04-01-2004 07:08									#407
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Go go super-adaptable moral standards!

	04-01-2004 07:20									#408
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Well, something is a bit different.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_war_weariness.shtml
is accurate about +1 wwp per turn in enemy territory, and -1 wwp per turn when nothing is in enemy and no enemy in yours. However, 19 archers attacking and dying had 0 effect, so something is off or incomplete in his study.

At the same time, my recollection of peace with any power, which was bullet proof in my war mongering SP games IIRC, is having no effect in the 5 player scenario I set up.

My conclusion is that we are under 60 wwp by his table, and that we will be at less than 31 wwp within 30 turns. I will try to verify that.

	04-01-2004 07:23									#409
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Go go super-adaptable moral standards!

Don't take it hard, Dom. We are investigating what to do about a team that is fully prepared to cheat, but without destroying the game for the other 4 teams.

	04-01-2004 08:33									#410
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Well, with UN approval I see no problem with using this tactic (just as I have no real problem with friendly GA triggering under the same circumstances). But if the UN is on our side for that, why the heck is GCA not being kicked out of the game outright?


Dominae

	04-01-2004 14:25									#411
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Go go super-adaptable moral standards!

Yeah, exploiting the game for the sole purpose of directly reducing/eliminating the effect of another team's exploits against us. For shame.

Anything through the UN will be a long and drawn-out process. And most any vote will be along alliance lines, so really how fair is that to decide game rules?

	05-01-2004 05:25									#412
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Just missed him. We need the Diplo's to make more of an effort to be around in #ISDGFAMTALKS.

quote: [14:01] * BigFree is now known as BigFree|Away [15:40] * Joins: Chieftess (jgasioro@ppp125.bcpl.net) [15:40] * Joins: Lucky (~trillian@p50882FDF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) [15:41] Chieftess: hi Lucky [15:41] Chieftess: Guess I walked into a Poly/GCA talk. [15:41] Lucky: no [15:42] Chieftess: The CFC Civ3 demogame just started today, and they're half-stuck in jungle. [15:42] Lucky: since the Poly people are not available when we come here, there are no talks [15:42] Lucky: guess weŽll have to try again tomorrow [15:42] Chieftess: but, do have a potential settler factory [15:48] Lucky well, IŽm off [15:48] * Quits: Lucky (~trillian@p50882FDF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com)) [15:54] * Joins: WhiteBandit (~whiteband@c-24-5-196-147.client.comcast.net) [15:54] * ChanServ sets mode: +o WhiteBandit [16:23] * BigFree|Away is now known as BigFree

	05-01-2004 08:06									#413
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Hey!! that's my normal timing, of being 5 minutes off....

E_T

	05-01-2004 08:26									#414
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Lucky stayed for all of 8 minutes. Sheesh. I waited nearly 8 hours for him yesterday, the least he can do is show up when I'm not busy watching the NFL playoffs.

--Togas

	05-01-2004 09:10									#415
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Apparently, he was in and our a couple of times, inclusing Anarchy and Trillback.

I was there, but didn't look in the room before I had to go to my sister's. But it would appear that they didn;'t notify us, either...

E_T

	05-01-2004 10:37									#416
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It appears as though trillback is Lucky and vice versa; maybe he's logging in twice for some reason....

[10:13] * Joins: Lucky (~trillian@p5088371E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
[10:22] * Joins: trillback (~trillian@p50882DCE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
[10:32] * Quits: Lucky (~trillian@p5088371E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Ping timeout)
[10:35] * Quits: trillback (~trillian@p50882DCE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com))

	05-01-2004 10:47									#417
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err yeah. if you noticed, Lucky suffered a ping timeout, meaning that his computer somehow disconnected and he came back. but IRC hadn't detected that yet, so the Lucky name was still registered on the server.

	06-01-2004 04:29									#418
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Well it happened, chat with Lucky:

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...712#post2611712


basically he wanted us to give him their old land back as suitable compensation... yeah right

but anyway, please read the chat it wasn't too long and goes a long way at showing the insight of GCA's wonderful leadership (and I tried not to screw up much)

-MZ

	06-01-2004 04:58									#419
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Hmmm... from what I was able to gather from the log (might be less than 100% accurate as I am quite tired, longing for bed, not ready to read the log one more time to check), GCA would be willing (if facing a ruling by mongoose, apparently) to sign an in-game peace if it was not meant as an out-game everlasting peace at the same time. I believe we should make it clear that such an arrangement fully satisfies our demands - they would be free to attack us (ingame) at will any time without "breaking any agreements". All we want them to "sign" at this moment is an ingame peace relieving us of our WW, right?

	06-01-2004 05:05									#420
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Hmmm... from what I was able to gather from the log (might be less than 100% accurate as I am quite tired, longing for bed, not ready to read the log one more time to check), GCA would be willing (if facing a ruling by mongoose, apparently) to sign an in-game peace if it was not meant as an out-game everlasting peace at the same time. I believe we should make it clear that such an arrangement fully satisfies our demands - they would be free to attack us (ingame) at will any time without "breaking any agreements". All we want them to "sign" at this moment is an ingame peace relieving us of our WW, right?

That is what it looked like to me as well. As long as they sign the in-game peace to get rid of our WW that should satisfy us. We won't have to deal with them for a while anyway, except through CGN.

MZ's comment about 'tigers' was well put...as in paper tigers.