29-12-2003 07:04									#361
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Don't the eliminated teams get a vote in this?

BFM has a point...

	29-12-2003 07:39									#362
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They aren't affected by the results of the poll, why should they get to vote in it?

That'd be like allowing Europeans to vote in the US Presidential elections.

	29-12-2003 07:52									#363
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Well, the Europeans are affected by the outcome of the U.S. presidential elections; just ask any politically-minded european about the subject and they'll give you an earful. So by your argument europeans should vote in U.S. elections.




Dominae

	29-12-2003 08:00									#364
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Well, the Europeans are affected by the outcome of the U.S. presidential elections; just ask any politically-minded european about the subject and they'll give you an earful. So by your argument europeans should vote in U.S. elections.

Fine then. Change the example to the California governor's recall or even the South Dakota district 12 school board elections if you'd like.

	29-12-2003 08:19									#365
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Consider this so far:

They have had at least 3 GL's so far, before the advent of chivalry, and they are not even a Militaristic Civ.

We did not win a single battle involving an NM during the entire war, despite the fact that most attacks were with horses, and an some cases the NM's were guarded by Catapults and/or on good defensive terrain.

Now they threaten to continue a war with us when neither side has any practical ability to attack the other. I don't mean to sound so harsh, but my mind is made up on the (dis)honesty of CGA.

I would send a reply that states the following "We request an end to hostilities with no reparations, as we consider the act of demanding retribution in exchange for peace, when in fact both nations are de facto in peace because neither side has the ability to conduct feasible military action against the other, the explotiation of a game mechanism. If such as deal is not agreed to, We will immediately request a formal ruling on this matter."

Now that we know that they do not simply want to "make peace" Its time for us to get a Formal response from GCA on this, then take that to the UN.

	29-12-2003 09:13									#366
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I agree with CD.

	29-12-2003 09:27									#367
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I agree with CiverDan as well - their refusal to talk peace without getting compensation for themselves as well as raising the possibility of continual WW is making a mockery out of this game ...

So much so that I wonder whether GCA should be expelled from the ISDGs (this and the Conquests one) if they do not relent - if they do this type of behaviour in this one (many teams suspected them of cheating by reloading it seems - just because we can't prove it for certain doesn't mean that it didn't happen), it is definitely possible they will do so in others... (and yes this sounds very harsh but if they are going to behave like brats the civ communities should treat them appropriately).

That being said we still might want to find out what they are talking about re "reparations" - either we would provide more ammunition for condemning their conduct or reach a suitable agreement.

	31-12-2003 17:01									#368
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe So much so that I wonder whether GCA should be expelled from the ISDGs (this and the Conquests one) if they do not relent - if they do this type of behaviour in this one (many teams suspected them of cheating by reloading it seems - just because we can't prove it for certain doesn't mean that it didn't happen), it is definitely possible they will do so in others... (and yes this sounds very harsh but if they are going to behave like brats the civ communities should treat them appropriately).

Can someone actually explain to me how this could be done?

On the continual war issue, offer them peace WITHOUT reparations, see if they agree, if not then get a ruling from mongoose, if GCA doesn't want to buy that, then propose a vote at the UN.

	31-12-2003 23:23									#369
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WE have already offered the peace straight up with no response. Well, other than what we hear through mongoose; which is no peace without reparations. But, still, they have not "officially" contacted us about it even though we have sent the message to them a long while back.

	01-01-2004 10:58									#370
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Why don't we put some pressure on GWT to finish them off?

Openly tell GWT that if they do not eliminate CGA, 'Poly is going to get a tech embargo on them with CFC and Nettolia (or what ever their name is).

	01-01-2004 23:53									#371
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This is all a bunch of CRAP. I don't understand why we are even negotiating with GCA. We should make it very very clear to them that they either make peace NOW or we will immediately call for a UN ruling against their intentions of perpetual war and they can either abide by it or GET THE HELL OUT OF THIS GAME. It is a ruling that we will win (3 to 2) so I don't see why we are afraid of doing it. Stick Lucky's arguments where they belong: up his cheating ass.

(and if anyone wants me to personally send him such a message, I will gladly do it.)

-MZ

	02-01-2004 00:52									#372
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Let us send Message #2, stating that we want peace and that there is no further point to having war. We can then wait a few days to see what the responce is before we go (officially) to the UN.

Although, I was already under the Impression that Mongoose was going to be posting something about it at 1BC already, he might be waiting for an Offical request from us. But I don;t know at this point in time.

E_T

	02-01-2004 01:34									#373
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen This is all a bunch of CRAP. I don't understand why we are even negotiating with GCA. We should make it very very clear to them that they either make peace NOW or we will immediately call for a UN ruling against their intentions of perpetual war and they can either abide by it or GET THE HELL OUT OF THIS GAME. It is a ruling that we will win (3 to 2) so I don't see why we are afraid of doing it. Stick Lucky's arguments where they belong: up his cheating ass. (and if anyone wants me to personally send him such a message, I will gladly do it.) -MZ

Now, THAT'S the type of diplomacy I want to see more often where GCA and GWT are concerned!

	02-01-2004 03:00									#374
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They want reparations from US??? I think that they should be required to pay a certain amount of reparations to us and CFC (assuming they're still at war with them too) for every turn they refuse to accept mongoose's ruling.

	02-01-2004 04:02									#375
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Now, THAT'S the type of diplomacy I want to see more often where GCA and GWT are concerned!

Well tough luck for you that isn't going to happen with GWT. You still don't seem to understand that a giant civ like GWT potentially has a lot to offer and we would be fools to piss them off needlessly. GCA on the other hand is completely out of the picture and we gain nothing negotiating with them.

	02-01-2004 05:36									#376
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Well tough luck for you that isn't going to happen with GWT. You still don't seem to understand that a giant civ like GWT potentially has a lot to offer and we would be fools to piss them off needlessly. GCA on the other hand is completely out of the picture and we gain nothing negotiating with them.

Maybe if you were in chat with them, like I am, then you'd see it differently. Your "friends" over there are being very unreasonable.

	02-01-2004 06:41									#377
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Yes, their MoW is being a bit of a twit, but then he is not his team, is he?

	02-01-2004 12:07									#378
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After reading that chat log I saw twits on both sides.

(see my rant in the GWT thread).

Anyway, this is not a GWT thread. What on earth are we going to do with GCA? Are we going to give one last message to Lucky before we bring it up at the UN or what? I don't see why we should hesitate, it's a vote we'll win.

	02-01-2004 12:24									#379
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Ignore Lucky and go straight to the UN at this point.

Lucky isn't going to change his mind, and we'll just be wasting effort and getting more angry if we try to confront him.

Go over his head. He's a spoiled brat. Let's treat him like a child and go to a higher authority to handle him.

Bring it up to the UN now, however, we need to phrase this issue correctly.

POSSIBLE WAYS TO PHRASE THE ISSUE:

Agree/Disagree:

No party shall intentionally remain at war for the SOLE PURPOSE of using the game's "war weariness" as a means to get revenge on the other party.

Once a war has been concluded, and no further fighting can occur within a reasonable period of time, if peace is offered by one party it shall be accepted by the other.

Parties shall exist in a state of war in the game only if they intend to fight each other. Being "at war" shall not be allowed for alterior purposes, such as punishing another nation with war weariness or to give a happiness boost to another nation.

--Togas

	02-01-2004 13:33									#380
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Parties shall exist in a state of war in the game only if they intend to fight each other. Being "at war" shall not be allowed for alterior purposes, such as punishing another nation with war weariness or to give a happiness boost to another nation.

Um, this would also prevent teams from going to war to trigger a GA. It's an entirely different issue, and one that we're currently debating within our own team. Let's keep them separate.


Dominae

	02-01-2004 13:44									#381
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How about:

If a peace treaty offer is made to a team while it and the other team(s) whom they are at war with have no reasonable ability to wage war, they must accept the peace treaty offer after 10 turns of non-engagement.

Or:

When waging war is not reasonably possible due to distances between teams or a lack of technology that would enable the teams to wage war on each other then peace must be accepted by said teams after 10 turns have past and no battles have taken place between the teams.

	03-01-2004 00:47									#382
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Email from Lucky to Apolyton:

quote: We agree to chat meeting, but nothing more. As of now, the people of Gamecatcher will not accept any mere peace treaty from treacherous bastards. We have no intention of just staying in the game to inflict WW, but we will pay back all that was inflicted upon us in the future. And unless Apolyton has a reasonable offer to make, we are not willing to agree to anything that would help your puny empire. As discussed in several places, your WW level is not that high and your WWP (war weariness points) will decrease anyway over time when no fighting or being in enemy borders occurs. A rought estimate would be that in something around 20 turns your WW level will drop to 0 again. The main point stays. There can never be any peace between our people anymore. You have shown yourself as the most untrustworthy neighbor, ignoring and breaking more treaties than all other civs combined. And so, the war will continue after our strategic retreat, no matter what the limited game diplo options say! Gamecatcher Alliance

	03-01-2004 00:51									#383
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What I WANT to say...

We agree to meet in chat and explain to you that you lost the war and after disbanding and destroying all of your own nation, you can no longer wage war against us.

If you choose to wage war against us in the future, you may declare war and we will be happy to beat you again, but for now, because war is impossible, staying "at war" and causing war weariness for a war that is nonexistant is just being a bunch of whiney, crying babies and we're going to formally request that the matter be settled by the UN.


... but that's probably not what should be said.

--Togas

	03-01-2004 00:57									#384
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AND...he wrong about WW decreasing. It does not decrease until there's peace. When we get peace the effects of WW go away on that turn while the "war weariness points" decrease gradually. The reason that the points decrease gradually is that if you accept peace, then redeclare war on the next turn, the WW returns to your Civ at it's previous levels. The longer you were at peace the longer the more it decreases until it eventually reaches 0. CFC has a pretty good page on it; though it does not explain everything in detail.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_war_weariness.shtml

	03-01-2004 01:10									#385
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While I like the letter only because I am tired of dealing with Lucky and his crying, I think one of the main points we should send in the letter is that:

you that you lost the war and after disbanding and destroying all of your own nation, you can no longer wage war against us.

Even though it was partly GCA's fault that this whole mess started long ago, there will really be no point in arguing all that, and who is morally right/wrong, etc.

Though in a sense, I do think your letter is harsh but it gets the point across. Maybe remove the "whiny babies" part so that we don't sink as low as them by resorting to calling each other names.

Lastly, perhaps we should point out the hypocracy of their actions: They agree this action is an exploit in the C3C ISDG, yet they will use it here.

	03-01-2004 01:14									#386
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Just for interests sake: exactly which treaties did we break with GCA? I was under the impression that we broke a NAP and that's it. If so, are they just angry because they lost, or is there something more I've missed (like us calling them cheating b@stards in public...)?


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 03-01-2004 at 01:21

	03-01-2004 01:30									#387
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Just for interests sake: exactly which treaties did we break with GCA? I was under the impression that we broke a NAP and that's it. If so, are they just angry because they lost, or is there something more I've missed (like us calling them cheating b@stards in public...)? Dominae

AFAIK it was just the NAP treaty. I would assume they are angry because they lost and therefore want to inflict as much pain on us as possible through the war weariness exploit.

I wonder if a chat with them will do any good at all. Mongoose needs to make his ruling soon and if GCA doesn't like it they can quit the game.

	03-01-2004 01:47									#388
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We should try to get Mongoose (or one of the other "judges") in to monitor this chat. OR we can send them a log of it.

E_T

	03-01-2004 01:53									#389
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Does anyone know when the chat will be happening?

	03-01-2004 01:55									#390
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No, that has not been discussed yet. We need to first reply to Lucky's message with a possible date and time for a chat.