28-03-2003 20:24									#121
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I don't want a NAP signed with GCA if they're going to continue blocking our movement.

	28-03-2003 21:18									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Non-Agression Pact between Apolyton and GCA: In the interest of peace and future cooperation, to ensure our security and friendship, the nations of Apolyton and The Gamecatcher Alliance glady agree to the following: There shall be no war or conflict between us. Our units shall not attack each other, nor shall they enter or come within 1 tile of the cultural borders of the other party without permission. Nor shall our units interfere with the travel and movement of each other outside of these borders. --Togas

Hope this eases your doubts

	28-03-2003 23:06									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Hope this eases your doubts

Okay, thanks.

	29-03-2003 02:23									#124
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Check out the correspondance thread. We have our NAP with GCA guys

	29-03-2003 03:10									#125
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Isn't it basically what they sent us in the first place?

It says that if either Poly or GCA attacks someone else, or if someone else attacks us, it's open for re-negotiation. So if CDG declares war on us, GCA can still re-negotiate the NAP they have with us. Isn't this what we were trying to avoid?

	29-03-2003 03:24									#126
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It even says that (hypothetical situation) if we have contact with the French, and the French attack the Germans, the treaty may be re-negotiated. It doesn't have to involve either GCA or us.

However, it is only open for re-negotiation if both parties (GCA and us) agree.

	29-03-2003 03:42									#127
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BFM is correct.

	29-03-2003 03:48									#128
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Just reinforcing what BFM said (because probably some people won't get the trickery behind the treaty at first):

Re-negotiation will only be considered if BOTH teams agree. If GCA wants to renegotiate but we don't, too darn bad, the treaty is still in place. They wanted a loophole to get out of the treaty if it didn't suit their interests but this clause effectively denies them that loophole because we would simply not agree to a renegotiation and so they're stuck.

And since they just agreed, they fell for it

	29-03-2003 03:56									#129
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Hopefully it'll work.

Often times, little clauses like that go unnoticed until it's too late, and when you try to enforce them, you end up in a quasi-war over the issue anyways.

Just a bit of advanced warning.

	29-03-2003 04:02									#130
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So what do we do now Trip? Do we send a note saying "ha ha, we tricked you!"

We may have a slight problem if this comes up, but I'm sure that we can (The FAM) handle the situation when and if it arises.

	29-03-2003 04:06									#131
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Now that it's done and there's some goodwill amongst us, let's get back to getting a Tech Deal signed.

Whitebandit, please feel free to get ahold of GCA and get the tech deal signed. Let me know if there's any snags. Do your best NOT to offer any gold we want a straight swap of tech. Point out that CDG gets the benefit of this deal if they give us any trouble... might help a little to start our slow project of building a gap between these two.

--Togas

	29-03-2003 04:14									#132
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree So what do we do now Trip? Do we send a note saying "ha ha, we tricked you!" We may have a slight problem if this comes up, but I'm sure that we can (The FAM) handle the situation when and if it arises.

Obviously they will contact us in case a "situation" arises in which they may wish to renegotiate the pact. If that occurs we simply point out this little clause and calmly and politely say HELL NO

	29-03-2003 04:18									#133
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Indeed. The situation will manifest itself through a contact from their side, not through the movement of a unit or something. We can then politely refuse and point to the treaty saying: that's what YOU wanted in it...

	29-03-2003 05:07									#134
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Of course, they could turn around and accuse us of negotiating in bad faith.

	29-03-2003 05:35									#135
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It's in B&W.

I like the idea that 1BC is acting as a UN / World Court... if someone gets to the point where it can be ignored (including incurring the active wrath of all remaining teams), then the game will be over.

	29-03-2003 05:36									#136
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quote: Originally posted by CiverDan Of course, they could turn around and accuse us of negotiating in bad faith.

We never even wanted that clause! We tried to convince Lucky to get a straight no-frills NAP but he kept insisting for "national security" reasons that such a clause be included. We simply re-worded it to suit our needs

And they fell for it, that's too damn bad. It's not our fault they aren't smart enough read between the lines.

	29-03-2003 05:56									#137
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It's not bad faith if we sent it to them as a "revised" treaty and they accepted it. If we had said "we accept it as you sent it to us", then sent them the copy back with changes, then that would be bad faith. Or if we had sent it to them and said "we just corrected the grammar" or something like that, then yeah.

But as far as I know, we sent it to them as a revised treaty, and in such a case its not our job to make sure they read and understand what it actually says.

	29-03-2003 06:03									#138
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quote: Originally posted by wervdon It's not bad faith if we sent it to them as a "revised" treaty and they accepted it. If we had said "we accept it as you sent it to us", then sent them the copy back with changes, then that would be bad faith. Or if we had sent it to them and said "we just corrected the grammar" or something like that, then yeah. But as far as I know, we sent it to them as a revised treaty, and in such a case its not our job to make sure they read and understand what it actually says.

Exactly! And this is 100% what we did. Of course... I didn't point out the changes specifically, but they didn't do the same to begin with when they gave it to me. All is fair in the game of... war? :P Hehe. But I did tell them we revised it, please look over it and tell me if you accept it. They accepted!

	29-03-2003 18:00									#139
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Good work WhiteBandit

	30-03-2003 02:18									#140
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NAP and trade treaty with both GCA and CDG (well, hopefully GCA)... we're in a pretty good spot diplomatically.

All we need to do is maintain this position and let the sparks fly between GCA and CDG.

	01-04-2003 09:17									#141
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What is the status of the WC and Wheel for Writing negotiation?

	01-04-2003 09:26									#142
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We're in limbo. Last time WB talked with GCA about it they were whining about how it was uneven, probably trying to coax us into giving them more.

They should come around, but we do need to give them another friendly reminder in a turn or two. Next time WB finds an excuse to small talk with one of them he can bring it back up.

--Togas

	01-04-2003 09:27									#143
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Last I heard WB was going to draft a 'reminder' letter to them about it. That was earlier, about 2 hours ago, I think.

	01-04-2003 10:24									#144
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New correspondance with GCA posted here. Trying to get them to hurry up with that tech deal! GRRR...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...896#post1873896

I leave it to you guys to pick it apart

	04-04-2003 07:31									#145
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Regarding my most recent chat with GCA, they are going to send everything regarding our tech deal "soon".

Which is what they said last time I believe. They also want to know what type of government we are planning on changing to in the future, I told him I did not know.

Also, regarding a FUTURE tech deal, notice he says he is 99% sure it will happen unless something BIG comes up...

Linkage:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...437#post1883437

	04-04-2003 18:40									#146
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Are they stalling us? I get a sense of déjà vu... in the PTWDG, we (Lux) had a similar deal with Roleplay, but in the end, it was never completed.

Writing is a very important tech, especially if we need Galleys to explore the world. Let's be very careful with GCA here.

	04-04-2003 19:26									#147
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Certainly looks like it. Some of the things History Buff said were also somewhat suspicious. We should keep an eye on them.

	04-04-2003 21:08									#148
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Well, from my experience with games like Diplomacy, the discussions with both CDG and GCA give me the distinct vibe of "we're going to turn around and kill you the first chance we get." I mean, if you honestly want friendly terms with a team, you work at it. There's a difference between being friendly but restrained and being downright evasive.

	04-04-2003 22:01									#149
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Possibly, but what would their motivation be?

It's certainly a very good clue, I won't deny that.

	04-04-2003 23:14									#150
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quote: Possibly, but what would their motivation be?

For us to die before we beat them? I'd guess that if any teams have targets placed on them (now the Jimmytrick is no longer on a team Firaxis is much safer no doubt ) it's us and CFC.

I'd doubt most teams would allow such out-of-game motivations to drive their actions, but it's a possibility.