04-04-2003 23:21									#151
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

While being cautious is good, I do think we're acting a bit too paranoid over this.

After reviewing the chat transcripts and given what I've seen from GCA in the past, I think we may be reading too much into this. Certainly, it is possible that they have knowledge of an early war involving us and CDG, and perhaps they've been invited to participate, but it's also possible that they're trying not to get locked into any promises because they understand that we're a bit more sophisticated and legalistic about our agreements, or they truely don't know what's going to happen and would like to remain flexible.

I could come up with a wealth of other equally logical explainations for their hesitancy, but the one thing that we should not ignore is the immaturity of this team. History Buff is a high school student who doesn't get much time to spend on this game due to having to share his computer with his two younger siblings. Lucky comes across as a casual hobbiest who probably is equally involved in other computer games and if this game gets slow will likely drift away as the newness wears off. We have seen no evidence of any high level schemers or politicians or propogandists on their team. Instead, they seem relatively straightforward with their questions, concerns, and doubts.

My experience with Diplomacy gives me the same vibe as ZargonX until I realize that these guys aren't really at the same level of a typical Diplomacy player. My experience in PBEM diplomacy however gives me a different vibe ...

BFM talks about a deal between my team and Vox that never happened which he attributes to "stalling", assuming that certainly a team with skilled diplomats and highly competant players would never let such a deal sit around idly unless they were up to something. He's right in his assumptions, but ironicly, the assumptions turned out to overly generous. There were many occasions where our team sat on deals or that deals were stretched out over weeks with nothing going on. In only one of those occasions did we purposefully stall. In another occasion we spent time trying to get a better deal with someone else. And in all of the rest of the occasions deals sat because of an inactive ambassador, or because of discussion, or because of a new event/issue that got our attention because we incorrectly thought the deal was done and it wasn't.

This team has a very high standard of excellence and competancy. My RP team is relatively sharp but mistakes and oversights get made. I'm willing to bet, from what I've seen of GCA, that they're far less organized and devoted than us, and probably less than my RP team.

Bottom line: We should never stop being cautious and never cease our careful examinations. But we should also not assume too much either. Stick with the facts, keep warming up to them, coax them into little deals and get them used to us, gradually, over time. If they let something slide or fail to get back to us quickly, let's not assume the worst, let's just keep talking and keep our tendency to become paranoid in check.

--Togas

	04-04-2003 23:27									#152
	Put an end to popups!

Paranoia can be a good thing.

From what I've seen, if something seems suspicious, something is probably going on, even if it's not much. Their actions mean something... whether or not it's significant is another matter.

	05-04-2003 00:44									#153
	Put an end to popups!

Togas is right in that we must always "act" rational, and appear to be the most professional, yet we must always have our eyes open to catch any signs either team may give that something is coming up. It is the only way to be warned, even though it's hard to truly predict with accuracy what is going to happen. Perception goes a loooooong way.

In that sense, paranoia is justified to a certain extent, the only problem is when it takes control of all our other actions and we base our decisions soley based on primal fear. Think and act rationally but always expect the worse.

I for one do believe they may be up to something. And I do suggest we start thinking of how to turn the geo-strategical situation more in our favor. At this moment our diplomatic stategy is to be nice to all, try and get as many trades as we can which benefit us, and slowly try and swing GCA to our side. We may of course have to re-adapt this if a "situation" occurs.

Meanwhile, the more we build the stronger we will be.

	05-04-2003 03:05									#154
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I'm not sure if they are up to something or not, but I know I'd feel alot better if we had a half dozen NMs just in case

	05-04-2003 10:41									#155
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well, we'll have 2 pretty soon...

	08-04-2003 12:05									#156
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Any news on the tech deal?

	08-04-2003 18:34									#157
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Nope, still waiting for them to accept. :-/

I'm not sure if we should further prod them or not for it. We're trying to take a laid back approach with them to get them in our camp, but jeez, this is really getting absurd.

Togas - should I write up a formal letter to send to them? Or just chit chat with History Buff the next time I see him online?

	08-04-2003 22:07									#158
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Honestly I think we have to send them a formal letter ASAP. I mean, it does not take over a week to debate whether or not to accept a trade deal.

I think they are just stalling for time, and I don't like that.

	08-04-2003 22:10									#159
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WhiteBandit -- Write them a formal letter, CC it to several of them. They got back to us and worked out the Non-Agg rather quickly ... why so much delay over a tech deal? They need this technology -- it'll help them defend themselves against CDG who is researching Iron Working right now.

--Togas

	09-04-2003 02:46									#160
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An Alliance between GCA and CDG would be a reason to delay this deal. GCA doesn't want it's reputation tarnished by reneging on the deal, so they are not agreeing to it. That would mean that CDG has no plans to honor the deal we have with them; they only agreed to it to allay our suspicions of an Immortal rush.

Another reason may be is that they are waiting to see what we do with WBigFree. They don't want to commit to researching a Tech that wouldn't help them militarily if we were to become aggresive towards them. Writing is a major endeavor. If they are forced into changing their research midway they stand to lose a lot of ground. Stemming from the same presumption that Writing gives them no military advantage; they may be nervous about a CDG Immortal rush themselves and are stalling/unwilling to commit to writing until they are sure that CDG won't do this to them. They could even be paranoid enough to think that we would help CDG in this and WBigFree is an advance scout for war!

There are too many reasons for GCA to stall or not to agree to this tech deal, these are just a few of the reasons they may have.

	09-04-2003 11:32									#161
	GCA Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

More GCA stuff. History Buff was online a few minutes ago and I tried to talk to him with permission from Togas, however he never responded!

Everyone in the chat theorized he was working on Canadian Bacon or something, hence why he might not have been responding. . .

But we are still working at it!

	11-04-2003 01:57									#162
	Have we got this yet? Geezo! Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I got home from school a little while ago, Trip and Vondrack invited me into a super secret channel where we were talking to Lucky and History Buff. There were a few other people there as well from 'Poly.

Basically, it sounds like we have an agreement to the tech proposal, we just need to include a clause "During the next tech deal, Apolyton will be required to offer technology that favors the GCA by 1 point."

We discussed possible technologies for a second trade clause where we would research Map Making in exchange for either Horseback Riding and Philosophy or HBR, Mysticism and Ceremonial Burial. Vondrack and Trip lean towards HBR and Phil as they already have CB and it would allow them to get a head start on research on some other tech, which we don't want

They say their next research path will take them along the pathes of either Monarchy or Republic, they haven't decided yet. They didn't mention the CFC "slip" from yesterday so either they assume they know I meant CDG or they really are freaking out (which would be a good thing, especially IF they have contact with CFC... then they don't know who to trust )

They did ask what we plan to do with WBigFree and we pretty much ran them in circles, saying things like WBF was there just to swoon CDG's women. Ultimately, they sound okay with him being there as long as he doesn't violate the NAP.

I don't have logs for the chat myself, but if I get them or someone else posts them, I'll link to it right here.

In the meantime, I am going to send off the updated tech propsal which contains that simple clause.

	14-04-2003 22:13									#163
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Well I talked to History Buff yesterday about the tech proposal, as indicated in this correspondance ( http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...547#post1911547 ).

According to him, he would send it off by "the end of the day." It is now "the beginning of the next day" and there is still nothing in my email box. I personally feel this is entirely unacceptable and is getting quite frustrating.

I know we shouldn't burn bridges so to speak, but when do we tell them that they can stuff the tech deal? Perhaps it's time to try and work with CDG... at least they are acceptable to our proposals and respond in a timely manner.

	15-04-2003 01:53									#164
	Wham, Bam, Thank you man! Got spare money?

Tech treaty has been ratified and finalized.

	01-05-2003 19:11									#165
	Support Apolyton

I can't believe that GCA is going after Monarchy. In a SP game it's obvious you go for it if you plan to war.

In an MP game, war weariness has no affect. The only reason you'd chose Monarchy is that you want to build the Hanging Gardens or you are really concerned about happiness.

The differences in the MP game bewtween the two are that you get more commerce under Republic and you get (2)"police" under Monarchy and some free unit support. The commerce gained in Republic far outweighs what "police" or free unit support will do. Everyone knows that Republic is better than Monarchy (especialy for reasearch), unless you are going to war.

I think they are making a big mistake; oh well, I won't tell them if you don't!

	01-05-2003 19:31									#166
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by BigFree I can't believe that GCA is going after Monarchy. In a SP game it's obvious you go for it if you plan to war. In an MP game, war weariness has no affect. The only reason you'd chose Monarchy is that you want to build the Hanging Gardens or you are really concerned about happiness. The differences in the MP game bewtween the two are that you get more commerce under Republic and you get (2)"police" under Monarchy and some free unit support. The commerce gained in Republic far outweighs what "police" or free unit support will do. Everyone knows that Republic is better than Monarchy (especialy for reasearch), unless you are going to war. I think they are making a big mistake; oh well, I won't tell them if you don't!

GCA is India, which is Religious. For religious civilizations, using Monarchy for an interim period between Despotism and Republic does make sense, as it may be more profitable than jumping straight into Republic - the military upkeep and happiness/luxury expenses can easily be higher than the gold income increase under Republic.

	01-05-2003 20:09									#167
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I would agree to that assesment if GCA didn't have to first research Monarchy; they'll not likely get anything in trade for it either. The commerce wasted on that alone is staggering.

	01-05-2003 20:25									#168
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I would agree to that assesment if GCA didn't have to first research Monarchy; they'll not likely get anything in trade for it either. The commerce wasted on that alone is staggering.

Good point about the commerce effectively wasted on the Monarchy research. However, there are two more religious civs in the game (Arabia - GWT, Egypt - Firaxis). GCA may be hoping to trade Monarchy to them later on... since Monarchy will be discovered after Map Making (and thus, hopefully, after necessary contacts are made).

But actually, the issue will become a "real issue" only after they finish Polytheism. Polytheism itself is a tech needed for the completion of the ancient times, so it does have some reasonable value. They may change their mind after finishing Polytheism, subject to the geopolitical situation at that moment.

	01-05-2003 20:44									#169
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Yes, we will have to wait and see....

But I still say that not all members on all teams are aware of the fact that war weariness isn't a factor at all in MP games.

	02-05-2003 00:33									#170
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Yes, we will have to wait and see.... But I still say that not all members on all teams are aware of the fact that war weariness isn't a factor at all in MP games.

The flip side is that they may not know about the whole war weariness issue in multiplayer. I think it's highly possible as many of us didn't know that war weariness is not a factor in MP games. So they just might be miseducated as well

	02-05-2003 00:46									#171
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I didn't know there was no WW in MP until about a month ago.

Leave them ignorant...

	02-05-2003 04:05									#172
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GCA may be a little mad the WBigFree is still there; judging by the last chat WB had with Lucky.

Maybe they wanted to do some Barb hunting but we are preventing the appearence of any camps.

If we get the tech trade deal done with both GCA and CDG soon, I will start negotiating a return of WBigFree through CDG's land. Unless we want to continue to irritate GCA that is?

	05-05-2003 22:52									#173
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New correspondence updated at: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...985#post1968985

Talked with Lucky very briefly, and as Trip noted in the IRC Chat, Lucky does not seem too terribly interested in the news.

Could this possibly mean that GCA is also in bed with CDG? It's really too early to tell I guess, but so far, the signs do not look good.

We know that CFC has had tensions with GCA. Would it be wise to talk to CFC about a potential Mutual Protection Pact with CFC/Poly vs. GCA/CDG? Trip noted that CFC probably wouldn't be able to do anything, which I agree, but at least having an MPP activated at the moment of attack might distract their war efforts?

	05-05-2003 22:55									#174
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit We know that CFC has had tensions with GCA. Would it be wise to talk to CFC about a potential Mutual Protection Pact with CFC/Poly vs. GCA/CDG? Trip noted that CFC probably wouldn't be able to do anything, which I agree, but at least having an MPP activated at the moment of attack might distract their war efforts?

Won't work. CDG/GCA knows where the threat is, and doesn't have anything to fear from CFC.

	05-05-2003 22:57									#175
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I'd wait for the outcome of that chat- he wasn't being uninterested, he was just playing his cards close and being noncomittal, which I would do just the same in his shoes.

	05-05-2003 23:40									#176
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GCA and CDG may well be in bed, it could also be a ruse by CDG to strike at them if they believe them to get sufficiently comfortable.

See, ruses work both ways.

1) One the one hand you could think of an unlikely alliance between GCA and CDG. Why? Because GCA is most vulnerable to CDG they would theoretically be their #1 target. The ruse of course would make us believe that when the real objective is a CDG/GCA alliance against us.

2) on the other hand you have CDG and GCA in bed with the ultimate objective of CDG backstabbing GCA. Why is this more possible? Because of one little detail: Numidian Mercs. An attack by CDG even with support of GCA might not work against a well defended +3 defensive unit equipped team.

Yes, I agree that a CDG/GCA alliance against us would seem the most unlikely and hence the most effective if actually implemented (read my Machiavelli quote in my sig ) However, the fact we have Mercs should make that plan very very risky for them.

I still think the target is GCA.

	06-05-2003 00:39									#177
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Another reson to think that GCA and CDG are in 'bed' is that GCA has built a temple in one their cities (if not two). I know they are cheap for them but you don't go that route unless you're feeling pretty comfortable with CDG's Immortals as your neighbor....

I'm not convinced either way, but it is something to add to your reasoning.

	06-05-2003 00:41									#178
	Tired of ads?

Or they could be looking for culture flips; a realistic weapon against a typically militaristic Civ like Persia, particularly when borders and land claims are important. In GCA's place I would've built those temples, too.

	06-05-2003 00:51									#179
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If you are allied with another civ in a MP demo game you would expect them to reject a culture-flip between each other. However, for border purposes, a temple would not seem like too bad an idea, with the techs they have, and their terrain, it was probably the best choice.

They might also be hyped by their score and might seek to get a bigger tech lead, and we know culture is a big influence on score. Silly though, as in MP score is really worth crap...

	06-05-2003 05:09									#180
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

BTW, we had a very interesting chat with Lucky on IRC, the chat log is posted in the correspondence thread.

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...15&pagenumber=4

Some observations:

- They are worried about CFC since they had very bad experiences during their negotiations with the first government.

- They appear to be on friendly terms with CDG yet seem genuinly worried about what we told them (the iron, the 0% science rate, the immortal). Of course, this could be a ruse but we're preparing for any eventuality anyway so a good dose of paranoia fed to them doesn't hurt a bit. If anything, they will sense we will not be caught off-guard and may tend to be a bit reluctant to any military operation with CDG towards us.

- The have agreed to share intel about any CDG move which may be considered a warning of an attack either against us or against them.

- They have also agreed to continue coordinating research with us. We offered them the following deal: we buy CB and trade HBR+MM for Myst+Poly. We offered 20g for CB. They will discuss this deal among themselves but I think we should send them an official proposal as soon as we can.


Anyway, if the paranoia worked, it was a major victory for us, as they seem to be genuinly interested in strengtheneing relations with us, if CFC really treated them like crap, they will definitely appreciate the way we are dealing with them, with honesty and without suspicion. If not, we have nothing to lose as we assume the worst anyway

-MZ