21-03-2003 08:25									#91
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i must go as well, lively discussion guys

	21-03-2003 08:28									#92
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quote: Iraq borders terrorist states.

So then iraq poses a threat to terrorist states.....Another reason to keep him there

quote: And Iraq would give WMD to any terrorist if it meant getting back at us.

But Pakistan, Iran, and North Korea would NEVER do that!!!

quote: Iraq selling WMD to any terrorist is very real in this day and age for pete's sake. How can you argue this? Please explain.

So then you are going ot have to go after every single nuclear power in the world because it only takes ONE nuke to spoil the bunch Have fun trying.

quote: The nightmare??? You argue this???

Alright, if were in the business of preventing nuclear weapons from getting to others, you are going to have to go after:

A

Afghanistan
Albania
Algeria
American Samoa
Andorra
Angola
Anguilla
Antarctica
Antigua and Barbuda
Arctic Ocean
Argentina
Armenia
Aruba
Ashmore and Cartier Islands
Atlantic Ocean
Australia
Austria
Azerbaijan
B

Bahamas, The
Bahrain
Baker Island
Bangladesh
Barbados
Bassas da India
Belarus
Belgium
Belize
Benin
Bermuda
Bhutan
Bolivia
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Botswana
Bouvet Island
Brazil
British Indian Ocean Territory
British Virgin Islands
Brunei
Bulgaria
Burkina Faso
Burma
Burundi
C


Cambodia
Cameroon
Canada
Cape Verde
Cayman Islands
Central African Republic
Chad
Chile
China
Christmas Island
Clipperton Island
Cocos (Keeling) Islands
Colombia
Comoros
Congo, Democratic Republic of the
Congo, Republic of the
Cook Islands
Coral Sea Islands
Costa Rica
Cote d'Ivoire
Croatia
Cuba
Cyprus
Czech Republic
D


Denmark
Djibouti
Dominica
Dominican Republic
E


East Timor
Ecuador
Egypt
El Salvador
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Estonia
Ethiopia
Europa Island
F


Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas)
Faroe Islands
Fiji
Finland
France
French Guiana
French Polynesia
French Southern and Antarctic Lands
G


Gabon
Gambia, The
Gaza Strip
Georgia
Germany
Ghana
Gibraltar
Glorioso Islands
Greece
Greenland
Grenada
Guadeloupe
Guam
Guatemala
Guernsey
Guinea
Guinea-Bissau
Guyana
H


Haiti
Heard Island and McDonald Islands
Holy See (Vatican City)
Honduras
Hong Kong
Howland Island
Hungary
I


Iceland
India
Indian Ocean
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Ireland
Israel
Italy
J


Jamaica
Jan Mayen
Japan
Jarvis Island
Jersey
Johnston Atoll
Jordan
Juan de Nova Island
K


Kazakhstan
Kenya
Kingman Reef
Kiribati
Korea, North
Korea, South
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan
L


Laos
Latvia
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia
Libya
Liechtenstein
Lithuania
Luxembourg
M


Macau
Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of
Madagascar
Malawi
Malaysia
Maldives
Mali
Malta
Man, Isle of
Marshall Islands
Martinique
Mauritania
Mauritius
Mayotte
Mexico
Micronesia, Federated States of
Midway Islands
Moldova
Monaco
Mongolia
Montserrat
Morocco
Mozambique
N


Namibia
Nauru
Navassa Island
Nepal
Netherlands
Netherlands Antilles
New Caledonia
New Zealand
Nicaragua
Niger
Nigeria
Niue
Norfolk Island
Northern Mariana Islands
Norway
O


Oman
P


Pacific Ocean
Pakistan
Palau
Palmyra Atoll
Panama
Papua New Guinea
Paracel Islands
Paraguay
Peru
Philippines
Pitcairn Islands
Poland
Portugal
Puerto Rico
Q


Qatar
R


Reunion
Romania
Russia
Rwanda
S


Saint Helena
Saint Kitts and Nevis
Saint Lucia
Saint Pierre and Miquelon
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
Samoa
San Marino
Sao Tome and Principe
Saudi Arabia
Senegal
Serbia and Montenegro
Seychelles
Sierra Leone
Singapore
Slovakia
Slovenia
Solomon Islands
Somalia
South Africa
South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands
Southern Ocean
Spain
Spratly Islands
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Suriname
Svalbard
Swaziland
Sweden
Switzerland
Syria
T


Taiwan entry follows Zimbabwe
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Togo
Tokelau
Tonga
Trinidad and Tobago
Tromelin Island
Tunisia
Turkey
Turkmenistan
Turks and Caicos Islands
Tuvalu
U


Uganda
Ukraine
United Arab Emirates
United Kingdom
Uruguay
Uzbekistan
V


Vanuatu
Venezuela
Vietnam
Virgin Islands
W


Wake Island
Wallis and Futuna
West Bank
Western Sahara
World
Y


Yemen
Z


Zambia
Zimbabwe



Taiwan

Copy pasted, of course, from the CIA World Factbook website

	21-03-2003 08:31									#93
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Oh and BTW, all these countries have about a combined population of 6 billion.

NOW Your having fun

	21-03-2003 08:35									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Welcome to Apolyton! Home of the hate America coalition. And don't expect much honesty here. They will all say that they are motivated by love and peace. I guess that means that they would love it if we were blown off the face of the earth and they could have peace in their hearts if we were nuked into oblivian.

The problem with an international forum is that you get opposing viewpoints. Of course, your definition of Anti-American might be "disagreeing with the American administration which gives the world the finger since its arrival to power". In these circumstances, Apolyton is genuinely AntiAmerican.
If your definition of Antiamericanism is "being critical against the permanent flagwaving some Americans show, and tell them how America isn't the greatest", then 'Poly is a hell of Antiamericanism : there is about as much America-bashing as flagwaving. We still don't know who begins, it seems everybody loves the exercize here

If your definition of Antiamericanism is "hating the US and the Americans", then very few Apolytoners are antiamerican. How could we bear argue with you Yanks permanently if we hated you ?

You should go to some muslim fundamentalists' forums, you'd see what antiamericanism looks like. On 'Poly, you are to bear the criticisms of an international opinion really not swayed by your policies. If you want to hide in a fantasy world where America is the internationally loved beacon of freedon, you can go there

	21-03-2003 08:43									#95
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quote: Originally posted by vee4473 for pete's sake.. if you hate america, just say it. don't be veiled.

I don't hate 'America'. Do you hate 'Iraq'?

I mistrust the motives of some American politicians and businessmen and women.

George Bush and his cabinet are not 'America', any more than Al Sharpton and Louis Farrakhan represent all African Americans.

I would suggest that you and Lincoln take a long dispassionate look at American support for tyrants, dictators, and torturers, and try to understand why there is an element of distrust when someone with as little knowledge of foreign affairs as George Bush Jr. starts scouting the world for little 'winnable' wars.

Take a favourite 'for instance' of mine, right in America's 'Monroe Doctrine' backyard, Guatemala.

In 1950, Jacobo Arbenz received 72 per cent of votes cast in the election. He instituted a mild land reform programme, because 98 per cent of Guatemalan land was owned by 142 'people' (counting foreign owned corporations as people). This displeased certain business interests in the U.S., namely the United Fruit Company, which had had 200 000 acres of idle land in Guatemala. This land was not confiscated, but would be paid for with 25 year bonds, issued by the Guatemalan government, to pay for the land at the company's own valuation- 600 000 dollars. The U.S. Government rejected this compensation as not being enough despite being the company's own valuation!) and entered a claim for SIXTEEN MILLION DOLLARS.

In 1954, therefore, a Guatemalan colonel named Castillo Armas invaded from neighbouring Honduras, with the U.S. supplying arms and military equipment as well as planes and pilots. The Arbenz government (democratically elected, with a substantial mandate) was overthrown by this U.S. backed military coup. John Foster Dulles described the illegal invasion as an added 'new and glorious chapter to the already great tradition of the American States.'

The military junta suspended the land reform programme, disenfranchised the 'illiterate masses' and seized peasant held property. All United Fruit Company land was returned, and taxes on profits and dividends payable to investors living outside Guatemala were abolished, with 11 MILLION DOLLARS falling into the corporate lap of United Fruit. A wave of murders and revenge killings ensued, with genocidal actions against Guatemalan Indians.

John Foster Dulles was Secretary of State, and had been for a long time legal adviser to United Fruit.

His brother, Allen Foster Dulles, Director of the C.I.A., had been president of United Fruit.

Henry Cabot Lodge, U.S. ambassador to the U.N. , was on United Fruit's Board of Directors.

John Moors Cabot, Assistant Secretary of State for InterAmerican Affairs, was a large shareholder in United Fruit.

Walter Bedell Smith, Director of the C.I.A. before Dulles, became president of United Fruit after the coup.

The day after the invasion, an urgent entreaty by the Guatemalan government that the United Nations Security Council be called into session to deal with the events was turned down by the Council's then President.

Who just happened to be....

Henry Cabot Lodge, U.S. ambassador to the U.N., and on the board of the directors of United Fruit.

You can read more in David Horowitz's 'Free World Colossus'

David Graham 'Liberated Guatemala', The Nation July 17th 1956,

and Charles O. Porter and Robert J. Alexander's 'The Struggle for Democracy in Latin America',

and 'The Enemy' by Felix Greene.

For the record- I love the blues, jazz, Jim Thompson's novels, sourdough bread, new country, Gertrude Stein's writings and Mark Twain. I have visited America, and loved driving down the Pacific Coast Highway, and through the Cascades. I don't hate 'america', anymore than I hate 'the moon' or 'the arctic'.

	21-03-2003 08:43									#96
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Old Europe = that old fat guy that is bitter because his high school football team got beat out by the best team in the state.

New Europe = know which way the wind blows

	21-03-2003 08:48									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Even larger violators of the UN, Israel being the largest with 33.

How many of those are Security Council resolutions?

	21-03-2003 08:51									#98
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither How many of those are Security Council resolutions?

In all truth, I don't know.

	21-03-2003 08:54									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 In all truth, I don't know.

However, I must add that I did see Israel with 33, Libya with something, egypt with about 24, and Iraq with 18.

	21-03-2003 08:56									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 In all truth, I don't know.

Let me help you out. Zero would be the right answer.

	21-03-2003 08:59									#101
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Kuwait's already in the list, considering it was the staging area for the invasion. Big deal, so 35 countries out of 195 say they're with us. There are three countries sending troops, and we're one of them. That's all that count, us, the UK, and Australia. Everything else is just shoe kissing.

The first time around, we had troops from 28 countries, including Egypt, Syria, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and others - over 70,000 troops just from the Islamic world.

To say that this coalition is larger or in any way more significant than the one assembled for the first Gulf War is laughable.

	21-03-2003 09:08									#102
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Let me help you out. Zero would be the right answer.

http://www.poptel.org.uk/scgn/articles/0303/page2b.htm

But whether UNSC violation or not, the actions taken by Israel are still actions against humanity.

We shouldn't complain about Saddam Hussein invading others when......

	21-03-2003 09:12									#103
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quote: Originally posted by vee4473 Iraq borders terrorist states. And Iraq would give WMD to any terrorist if it meant getting back at us.

Iraq borders Iran, which hates Iraq. Iraq also borders Saudi Arabia, which also hates Iraq.

By the way, Iran and Saudi Arabia are among the most fundamentalist Muslim countries. Iraq is among the most secular.

And why would Iraq want to "get back at" you? What exactly do they gain from that? Saddam Hussein is trying to stay in power, not invite the world to hate and attack him.

quote: I never understood those who couldn't see that in this day and age, borders mean nothing. Obviously iraq would never launch an ICBM! He would rather sell it to a terrorist so that his finger prints are no where to be found! A nuclear bomb could go off in NYC, and because it was a smuggled terrorist weapon, it would be virtually untraceable and saddam would sit back and laugh while the UN engaged in another round of "talks" arguing that there was no proof that iraq was involved...and on and on and on it goes....

If Iraq gets nukes, of course they would be trying to keep them, not sell them off to the highest bidder, and especially not selling it to Iran or Al Qaeda, both of which hate Iraq for being much more secular that fundamentalists would like.

In fact, if Iraq really had nukes, the only way they would ever think of selling or using them is if they get attacked. You don't use a nuke unless you have nothing to lose - because you will be nuked in return.

Good job, America.

quote: And north korea is being dealt with as well. Can you imagine if Iraq was allowed to get to the point of North korea???

North Korea is dealt with by?

Not doing anything?

quote: oh my gosh, i weep for the world.

You should be weeping for America. Arrogance killed Rome and Persia, imperial China and the Ottomans. I guess human nature will never change.

	21-03-2003 09:22									#104
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quote: Poland

The Iraquis had best surrender now. The Poles are the fiecest warrors the world has ever produced, the war is over already. I wonder why they keep giving the US credit for victories?

POLAND!

	21-03-2003 09:30									#105
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan You should be weeping for America. Arrogance killed Rome and Persia, imperial China and the Ottomans. I guess human nature will never change.

...and dithering and do-nothing appeasement almost handed Europe over to Germany during WWII, not to mention the lives of countless Jews, Slavs and other people considerd inferior by Hitler.

as well as millions of Russians caught in the crosshairs of Stalin.

	21-03-2003 09:36									#106
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quote: Originally posted by hexagonian ...and dithering and do-nothing appeasement almost handed Europe over to Germany during WWII, not to mention the lives of countless Jews, Slavs and other people considerd inferior by Hitler. as well as millions of Russians caught in the crosshairs of Stalin.

America might want to stop reminiscing about its past glory and hoping that the world would therefore be eternally grateful, submissive, and obedient.

As far as the rest of the world is concerned, America is inching closer and closer to being Hitler and Stalin, not defeating them.

As I have said again and again: this is not even about Saddam any more. America went into Kosovo, as well as Iraq the first time, with very little problems from the rest of the world. The problem is the utter comtempt and disregard that America has for the rest of the world ever since the new administration took power.

	21-03-2003 09:39									#107
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan As far as the rest of the world is concerned, America is inching closer and closer to being Hitler and Stalin, not defeating them.

Oh gosh. Is that what they're doing in Area 51?

	21-03-2003 09:48									#108
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan America might want to stop reminiscing about its past glory and hoping that the world would therefore be eternally grateful, submissive, and obedient.

When did it end? Please point out where in History the world stopped being American. I beleive that simply because we have lost world favor means nothing. So what? That makes us no less powerful.

quote: As far as the rest of the world is concerned, America is inching closer and closer to being Hitler and Stalin, not defeating them.

That's a nice twist on the Hitler analogy. I almost like it. When did we start persecuting minorities?

quote: As I have said again and again: this is not even about Saddam any more. America went into Kosovo, as well as Iraq the first time, with very little problems from the rest of the world. The problem is the utter comtempt and disregard that America has for the rest of the world ever since the new administration took power.

No, we do not have any contempt for the rest of the world, if we did we never would have bothered with the UN. We tried to get support, getting a mixed response we proceeded to do what we found right.

	21-03-2003 09:56									#109
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quote: Originally posted by SKILORD When did it end? Please point out where in History the world stopped being American. I beleive that simply because we have lost world favor means nothing. So what? That makes us no less powerful.

If that is really the mentality of America, then your stint at world domination will end quite soon.

All leaders ride on the support and devotion of their followers. Without support, things get much more difficult, no matter how powerful you are. I'm sure you've already that seen in recently in Iraq - look how much harder it was than Kosovo.

And if you go on like this, it'll get harder. This is how empires fall.

quote: That's a nice twist on the Hitler analogy. I almost like it. When did we start persecuting minorities?

Nah, that analogy is for effect. Of course America won't be herding minorities into camps - that'd be so obvious.

quote: No, we do not have any contempt for the rest of the world, if we did we never would have bothered with the UN. We tried to get support, getting a mixed response we proceeded to do what we found right.

The rest of the world saw exactly how the US entered into the UN with much reluctance, and already set on war. They saw how Americans decided to start attacking before everyone agreed that the inspections were done. They also saw how Americans went around the Security Council and conducts the war unilaterally.

I don't exactly care if you find it right or wrong. The absolute lack of tact, respect, or even acknowledgement for other nations is astounding.

In the meantime, there are other little things that happened before Iraq. Like Kyoto. And the criminal court. etc.

	21-03-2003 10:18									#110
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Poisoning the well. Go look that up if you want. It's the name of a common fallacy.

There are a few more.

1. Composition. Just because Tassadar pointing out Israel having the most UN resolutions it doesn't mean he hates Israel.

2. False Cause (Non-Sequitur). Hates Israel is not a necessary and sufficient cause of hating the US.

3. Slippery Slope.

4. Strawman. See 1.

I could go on

	21-03-2003 10:21									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Apolyton leans to the left. Take a poll here someday. Many have been taken in the past. But maybe it has changed recently, but I don't think so. Anyway, I am off to bed. Night all...

It means squat unless we have agreed upon on where "the centre" is.

	21-03-2003 10:24									#112
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God Bless America...

	21-03-2003 10:29									#113
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Let me help you out. Zero would be the right answer.

Zero is the wrong answer. This list should prove to be illustrating.

	21-03-2003 10:30									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten God Bless America...

Sigh.

Sometimes when I look at America, I am reminded of what happened to China at the end of the imperial days. It's almost sad...

	21-03-2003 10:34									#115
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Ranskaldan :
Drake was trolling.

	21-03-2003 10:36									#116
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quote: It's almost sad...

So is your oppression of the Tibetans, Uighurs and members of Falun Gong. Time to get off that high horse...

	21-03-2003 10:40									#117
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That came out of nowhere...

To continue UR's exposition of fallacies, this is known as a red herring.

Now go back to that other thread you came from.

	21-03-2003 10:40									#118
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Why are you attacking Ran's country, rather than his arguments ?

	21-03-2003 10:49									#119
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quote: Why are you attacking Ran's country, rather than his arguments ?

That's what we one-trick ponies do. We bring up whatever mistakes a country has made and use them to question the motives of whatever action that country is currently undertaking. This covers up the distinct lack of evidence and logic behind our arguments...

	21-03-2003 11:04									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 :lol Does Iraq border the US? If not, then I really dont think we need to fear them

Does Afghanistan border the US?

quote: Israel......I keep mentioning Israel.

Which resolutions against Israel have a mandate under chapter 7 that authorizes use of force?