05-04-2003 03:05									#31
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F4s entered service in the early 1960's like the mig 21's. The F86 which entered servive during the Corean 1950-53 like the mig15 (the f86 had the tail postioned on the root of the fin, not on it, the mig did). The interim mid to late 50's fighters were the transonic F100 for NATO and Mig 19 (Chinese J6) for WARPAC. During the 1960's US allies got the F104 starfighter ("flying coffin", it is a dangerous plane to fly for those who use it), instead of the phantom. The F104 was license built in Canada, Japan, Italy and Germany in great numbers. Planes like the F101, F102, F105 and F106 saw comparatively limited service. France and Britain built their own planes.

I really think that North Corea should be included in the WARPAC, the Soviet army left just before the outbreak of the war there. They actually participated in the war as military advisors and volunteer pilots.

In the real world, SS troops joined the French foreign legion en masse, to avoid persecution. They fought in Algeria, Indochina etc. also in Belgian Congo.

M109's were used post WW2 by the Spanish (who also built He 111's and airboats) and the Czechs, the French built some Fw190's and Ta's as well as some German bombers. Mig 5 and Mig 9 had german engines I think.

	05-04-2003 03:12									#32
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quote: Originally posted by EZRhino The soviet Mig-15 was based by and large on a late war geman design that never made it into production.

That would have to be the Mig 9, that actually had German engines. The Mig 15 Fagot was built around a copy of the British Rolls Royce Nene engine, which was legally oferred to the USSR by the sympathetic labour government.

	05-04-2003 05:17									#33
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That is true, but I was speaking not of the engines, but of the airframes.

	05-04-2003 05:30									#34
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Does anyone know what a flag of the Weimar republic looks like, because I cannot imagine a Rommel-led Germany keeping the Swastika after the death of Hitler and the destruction of the SS (Rommel never joined the Nazi party, seeing his duty more towards the German people than towards the Nazi Government)

By the way, I like the swastika-Nato emblem, but see above

	05-04-2003 05:34									#35
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I would like to aid the project in any way possible, though I am graphically impaired, so I volunteer to work on some of the text files, if you want

	05-04-2003 05:39									#36
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The Weimar flags:

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/de1921.html

Another good-looking scenario, it'd be interesting to see if curt could use multiple events files this time though...but that's just a very minor issue.

	05-04-2003 07:07									#37
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The Weimar flag was the same as the current one.

If the war in Europe ended in 1944, the chances are that the US would have pushed ahead with an invasion of Japan since the bomb wasn't ready yet. Or perhaps that they would have surrended sometime after Germany did, but I don't know how likely that would be that early in time. So perhaps this war will see the first use of atomic weapons

	05-04-2003 07:21									#38
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That actually sounds better, as the Soviets didn't get the bomb until 49, I think. It would be interesting, especially in PBEM, to see a US with a monopoly on the Atomic Bomb. If the use of an Atomic weapon was post-poned, one can easily see the theft of it also forestalled.

	05-04-2003 08:44									#39
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Will this scenario have a "normal" tech tree?

	05-04-2003 09:09									#40
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I dig the avatar Kirk. But didnt that total awareness deal fall through the floor?

	05-04-2003 14:31									#41
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@Curt: I´m currently compiling/editing a bunch of shields and units. If you like to see ´em just tell me ....

	05-04-2003 15:01									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Iron Chancellor Who are the owners of these units (which by the way look great)? PS How far along is the project?

Scots regiment, NATO Infantry, Canadian Infantry.

(The red and white Canadian flag did not come into wide use until 1955, I have been told)

	05-04-2003 15:02									#43
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@Jim,

I love to see your shields, feel free to post them!

	05-04-2003 15:13									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Iron Chancellor I would like to aid the project in any way possible, though I am graphically impaired, so I volunteer to work on some of the text files, if you want

@Iron, I would be honoured to have you aboard!

	05-04-2003 15:23									#45
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The scenario is in the early stages, but luckily, I have a tech-tree template and other files from when I was making D2MGE.

The main challenge will be the map...I might make a new one, or just use a veryheavily-edited one from Dictator...

What do you all think?

Many things will change, from graphics and events...as this is early days for the project.

The emphasis of the tech tree will be a race to build aircraft that did not see the light of day in our world to the late 1960s...

These are the superplanes of the scenario, only possible due the progress achieved in war.

Also civs must rush to achieve the atomic ballistic missile science.
The bomb never was dropped on Japan, and it was occupied after the Emperor ordered an end to the resistance, in the aftermath Germany's capitulation.

It now is a toy that both superpowers are working on...
The civ that reaches the ballistic atomic missile will be able to threaten the world...

But conventional warfare rules the early battles...

The Mig is rare at the outset of the scenario. But will appear in greater numbers...
Their appearance in 1950 are due to many scientists from Germany escaping to Russia with research,
in the immediate post-surrender chaos in Germany...

This will be a major conflict in Europe, with a good challenge, no matter who you play...

State of map-ownership:
The USSR owns everything Eastern, up to Poland...
The NATO owns Western Europe and has objective cities, the crux of the scenario...
The USA has projected bases and fleets all over...It has a mission to crush unruly states also...
A war is also brewing around the new state, Israel...
China watches and remains mysterious...

	05-04-2003 15:27									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Iron Chancellor Does anyone know what a flag of the Weimar republic looks like, because I cannot imagine a Rommel-led Germany keeping the Swastika after the death of Hitler and the destruction of the SS (Rommel never joined the Nazi party, seeing his duty more towards the German people than towards the Nazi Government) By the way, I like the swastika-Nato emblem, but see above

All Euro cities will fly a NATO flag, the one I am using is not the final one, but a place-holder...

Anyone got any ideas what the NATO flag would be?

I was thinking of a simplified version of the current one...

	05-04-2003 16:21									#47
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Why would it be any different to the current one?

	05-04-2003 16:25									#48
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Shields arrive .... Units still to come
Feel free to use them and tell me if you need any more of them ....


BTW, the so-called "Weimarer Republik" (Republic of Weimar" used the "older" version of the German Flag, Black-Red-Gold, just like the Federal Republic of Germany today.

Attachment: shields.gif
This has been downloaded 155 time(s).

	05-04-2003 22:03									#49
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Curt: I redid the turret on the KV-85 so it actually looks like the T-34/85 turret. It's in the WW2 graphics showcase thread and IMO it is better than the one you have of mine

	06-04-2003 01:51									#50
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quote: Originally posted by jim panse Shields arrive .... Units still to come Feel free to use them and tell me if you need any more of them .... BTW, the so-called "Weimarer Republik" (Republic of Weimar" used the "older" version of the German Flag, Black-Red-Gold, just like the Federal Republic of Germany today.

Thanks!

These will be very useful!

	06-04-2003 01:52									#51
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quote: Originally posted by The ANZAC Curt: I redid the turret on the KV-85 so it actually looks like the T-34/85 turret. It's in the WW2 graphics showcase thread and IMO it is better than the one you have of mine

Thanks a lot, ANZAC!

I will go and check it out, immediately!

	06-04-2003 01:59									#52
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What could be interesting would be a race to atomic and then hydrogen weapons. In some scenarios I've seen smaller nukes have an attack of 50 or so, this would be damaging, but not totally and would be dwarfed by the development of hydrogen weapons, which could function more like a Civ2 nukes, and were up to hundreds of times more powerful or so.

quote: Originally posted by EZRhino I dig the avatar Kirk. But didnt that total awareness deal fall through the floor?

Thanks, and yeah, but I'm lazy and it's kind of cool looking in an evil sort of way

	06-04-2003 03:51									#53
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You guys should try to wage a thermonuclear war in a smac pbem

I think since this scenario isnt exactly historical, it would be fun to experiment with more unlikely technology. Since a Nationalist Germany still exists after 1945 they may have capitalized on some of the amazing millitary technology they developed but didnt have the resources to persue to fruition. I must admist I have a fasicination with the secrets weapons of the cold war. And the great thing about alternate history scenarios is that they can let us explore what might have been. It would be cool to see germans on the moon, or the sary****en tiger, or manchurian canidate takeover plot. However I doubt that a German surrender would have slowed the develpment of the atomic bomb. FDR had no illusions about Soviet post war intentions, they were already subtlety ratteling the nuclear sabre when the three allied leaders met in Tehran.

Edit: s h a g is a banned word?

Last edited by EZRhino on 06-04-2003 at 04:38

	06-04-2003 06:50									#54
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I always thought that FDR was a bit too trusting for the Grand Alliance's good, Churchill and Truman were always far more skeptical.

If this really is alternate history, you could make China into a Nationalist republican state, with a "North China" in Manchuria under the Soviet-dominated Communists. Chiang Kai-Shek was securely in power in the rest of China before he ignored American desires and invaded the Communist-dominated Manchuria. After the invasion, his forces lost the momentum and the Soviets stepped up their aid, allowing Mao to push back Chiang and force the Nationalists off the mainland.

	06-04-2003 06:52									#55
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If you do decide to keep the Swastika on the NATO sheild, you may want to make it larger/more obvious, because it's a little hard to figure out what exactly it is.

	06-04-2003 12:15									#56
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@Iron Chancellor:
It's not really a crooked cross on the NATO flag, it is just the way the design turned out.
I will be changing this soon.

Also yourself, JamesJKirk and EZRhino have gave me some great ideas there!

You will notice that I have two missile units, so I may very well carry out that hydrogen idea...
Also I like the idea of China being under Chiang Kai-Shek's rulership,
as the Soviets are concentrating on Europe, and not asia...

As far as the tech tree goes...Yes I think some whacky 1950's 'what-if' techs are on the cards, for sure!

@EZRhino:
You hit the nail on the head!
In Sov-Steel, Germany still has it's weapons projects, now funded and aided by the USA!
This will mean some cool weaponry, when I flesh out the tech-tree...and add some new units...

	06-04-2003 12:19									#57
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I am at an impasse...

I am not sure what to do about the map...

*Do players of D2MGE like the last map I used?
*Or do you think I should make a new one?

I was given a rather nice world map a little while ago and was considering using it,
but this would use up tons of time as I place cities, etc...

Depends if someone would want to help me place the cities!

What do you guys think?

	06-04-2003 12:56									#58
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I might help you with the cities, post the map and let me have a look at it

	06-04-2003 13:10									#59
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What nations did you have in mind to fill the civ slots, it might be interesting to have both Mao and Generalissimo Chiang still embroiled in a Chinese civil war, with the great super-powers taking sides, forestalling or bypassing the korean war?

Edit: Oh and the Soviet Mig-15 was based on the
Focke Wulf TA-183, now that I remember.

Last edited by EZRhino on 06-04-2003 at 13:32

	06-04-2003 13:56									#60
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Yeah, if you need help, just tell me ...