12-04-2003 21:16									#1
	Turn 94, 690 BC Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Status:
135 Gold, -38 per turn, sliders at 0.9.1.
Feudalism ready next turn. Adjust science slider to minimize waste of beakers
Check this and every turn to see if we lost some war unweariness due to the killing of troops within cultural borders and must readjust the lux slider.

Urgent questions:

Military:

Economy:
-Worker 9 of Arashi road(2)
-Worker 8 of Tornado move 88 (on the way to help with the mine 6 of Sandstorm)
-Workers(3) 47 of EotS move 33 and mine(1)
-Worker 8 of Olibanum Gale move 6 and mine(2)
-Worker Cyclone move 8 and mine(3)*

-EotS (sorry to be so verbose with this, but what we do this turn can mean up to 150 shields difference in overall military production capacity in the next 40 turns). I think we need 4 food to grow now? We need to get at least 18 food in the bin to cover our GA. That means using 4FP's and 3 2 food tiles next turn and the turn after. Every food we have in EotS in 3 turns = 10 shields of production towards units.

*If we want to get the most out of EotS long term, Cyclone's new Worker move 89 to finish the mine there, and the Worker freed up is added to EotS. Then use 4FP's and 3 2 food tiles for +10 food per turn. This will cost us 10 shields short term (A WC or Cat instead of a Pike or Horse as our first build), but give us 15 extra turns of running a food deficit in EotS. We should be able to get to 35 food in EotS' box this way before adding the rest of the workers and starting to run the deficit.

Diplomacy:

- ND will pay 200 gold or 12gpt for feudalism ,money will be sent in two turns.(alva):

Thread library:
- Standing orders for workers (Orders last revised April 5.)

Last edited by alva on 13-04-2003 at 14:47

	13-04-2003 00:02									#2
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I started to write up a post last night regarding the likely Vox threat (less than we had feared) but had to go out, and lost it.

While 'planning' for the worst is admirable, it does not always follow that actual tactical implementation should be for the worst case scenario... in fact, an overly defensive posture can sometimes provide the worst results.

I am not saying this in a derogatory or unprofessional tone, but please remember that Vox suc... oh, okay, Vox plays in a decidely suboptimal manner.

I think they will attack us in one of three ways:

1. Spinebreaker Showdown: Their units will gather into an SoD ( ) on the mountain 2 of D-ville. They will trust the Spears to absorb what limited damage we can inflict (i.e., none from WCs) as they head directly south to Arashi. They will try to bulldoze through our mountain encampment. I do not believe they will attack Arashi... not good enough. If these guys are in desperation mode, and looking for some glory, they will want to hit us (specifically US, as in GS, as in the Strat forum guys) in some dramatic way. They know our capitol is down there somewhere...

2. Showdown with Feint: Vox may send a distraction towards Monsoon, via land and / or sea. Same emotional logic... GS would never allow the capture of a single town. All this would really do is burn up WCs however, so I think it's a low probability.

3. Battle at Monsoon: The southern Spinebreaker Spears may indeed be the feint. Using the mountain 2 from D-ville as a loading point, send four Spears to the hills 1 from Monsoon, followed by four Immortals, etc. Show us what they are doing, openly, in fact rubbing our faces in it... excellent grist for the public forum.

BTW, I think the likelihood of Vox using the Spears to pillage is low; rather, I would expect them to fortify on a path down the Spinebreakers.

Also, I expect their homeland to be very, very lightly defended, with Vox trusting to a slow but steady stream of Immortals heading from north to south. This applies to their supply chain (i.e., road system) as well.

Last edited by Theseus on 13-04-2003 at 00:10

	13-04-2003 00:13									#3
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Something to think about.....

What do you think of us loading a galley with a couple of swords and sneaking it up to their territory?

Like Theseus said, their homeland is bound to be very lightly defended right now. They're throwing everything they've got at us.

How much would it hurt our own defenses to spare a Galley and 2 Swords?

What are our chances of making up to Vox lands without being sunk? Would the West or East coast be safer?

If we can take a city up there we will a) greatly slow down production and b) divide their forces because they'll have to hold some units back for a few turns to fight us off. Is the possible benefit worth the risk?

	13-04-2003 00:26									#4
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I think our defensive posture is pretty straight-forward.

* WCs sweep the northeastern valley, with the flexibility to pull back towards Arashi if need be. Two or so WCs should be kept in Arashi for flexibility (including coverage of Olibanum Gate and Hurricane, just in case).

* MedInf are the key here. I would like to see all but one concentrated in Arashi and the mountain 9. Leave one in Hurricane, and cover the iron with a Spear.

* Empty Tempest and Sandsorm.

* Pull the Warrior back from the northern iron to the hill 1 from Monsoon.

* Arashi should focus on MedInfs after the Barracks. Switch Monsoon and Sandstorm to catapults. Switch Tempest to a Sword. Switch Cyclone to a WC if it has a Barracks, otherwise to a Barracks.

After absorbing the attack, I would prioritize getting two to three Galleys on the west coast... Vox is tremendously vulnerable north of D-ville. Either land directly on the jungle tiles 88 and 888 of D-ville, or, if they are occupied, the mountain at 887. A heap of MedInf would seriously ruin their day.

Have we considered Sun Tzu instead of the Pyramids?

	13-04-2003 00:28									#5
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Something to think about..... What do you think of us loading a galley with a couple of swords and sneaking it up to their territory? Like Theseus said, their homeland is bound to be very lightly defended right now. They're throwing everything they've got at us. How much would it hurt our own defenses to spare a Galley and 2 Swords? What are our chances of making up to Vox lands without being sunk? Would the West or East coast be safer? If we can take a city up there we will a) greatly slow down production and b) divide their forces because they'll have to hold some units back for a few turns to fight us off. Is the possible benefit worth the risk?

West (edit, need a compass ) would be fairly safe, as we can use GoW to scout for us a bit. Not foolproof, mind you. And we know that one galley is on the West.

I think once we get the turn and see if a stack is moving on us, we can make that decision. if its a really pathetic stack, then we can be a bit creative. If its a huge stack, like 15 or so units, then we should hunker down.

But, all shall be revealed in this turn I think. They know everyturn they don't hit us, is a turn we grow in strength. with an eta of three or four turns, any delay will prove costly. mwahahahaha

	13-04-2003 00:30									#6
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I know... I can't WAIT for the next turn.

	13-04-2003 00:37									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I know... I can't WAIT for the next turn.

Yeah, and only ND has played their turn. GoW is sitting on theirs for some reason.

Do you think Vox is trying to buy off that galley? Or perhaps mask something? Has GoW seen something they shouldn't have? They have been pretty quick before, and GF has been psoting on Poly today, so.....

I think RP and Vox are trying to buy off the screenies, or at least fake them.

Will Vox keep their save 24 hrs to get back at us? I can't stand it. grrrr.

It will be interesting to see if the names on the immortals match up to names we see in a turn or two.......

	13-04-2003 01:39									#8
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Names: they could play tricks on us and rename immortals every turn or when they go outside our view, so don't rely on names.

GoW sitting on the turn: GF logged onto the IRC server about an hour and a half ago, saying that he just got back from a very long test. I dunno if he's telling the truth, but I wouldn't say that just because they're sitting on the save, it means that they're up to something.

Attacking up north: First of all, I would like us to hit their iron. If we can spare a galley and one unit (any unit), we could cut off one tile of their supply road. I think the road tile 47 of their iron colony is perfect: there's probably a guard on the colony mountain that will be able to see this happen but won't react in time, and if there are no other immortals within range, we could pillage that tile a turn after we've landed. If we can spare two units for this task, we have a better chance of having at least one surviving unit to pillage that road, should GoW turn out to have units within striking range.

	13-04-2003 01:46									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Names: they could play tricks on us and rename immortals every turn or when they go outside our view, so don't rely on names. .

What I was meaning about that, was, that if the names show up the same as GoW had, its more likely that that the screenshots were not faked. We've now seen, what, 6 or 7 named units? lots of room for mistakes there.

And the units might change names, granted, but perhaps not. again, we shall see...

and I would want two pikes to cut the jungle road. one I think would be too easily killed. My guess is that they have one immortal and one spear onthat colony.

a jungle road pillage would be awful for them. how many worker turns would that take? mwahahaha

	13-04-2003 02:24									#10
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Names: I figure that if GoW edited those shots, they just hid some of the immortals, so we'll be seeing the immortals in GoW's shots, as well as other ones that we weren't expecting.
We can really test GoW's honesty against the number of immortals we'll be seeing soon. If it's way off, then GoW might have some explaining to do.

Fixing their road: that is, if they have any workers at all. Double Mwhahahaha!!

	13-04-2003 03:16									#11
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1) I'm starting to think we probably don't want to write off Monsoon as a loss after all. If we see a threat where we can't hold Monsoon and Arashi both, we write off Monsoon, but we don't just let Vox walk into it if we don't have to.

2) I still think walls in Arashi would make a lot of sense just in case Vox sends a bigger force than we've seen at us. If Vox does reach a point of attacking Arashi, walls would be worth a whole lot more than half a medieval infantry.

3) Sandstorm's best value right now is building a worker to help get Hurricane up to 30 shields per turn sooner. I'm also skeptical about switching Monsoon to something else, unless we'd decide Vox is about to take it and we want to rush the tail end of a unit before they do. Keep in mind that a border expansion in Monsoon puts a second source of iron in our cultural borders.

4) Cyclone's job is to pump out a worker every turn. We'll be pumping up EotS's size soon and, as soon as we can get together the gold for an aqueduct, Tempest's as well, so we need lots of workers.

5) Considering how many barracks we already have (or will have by the time we get our turn) and the small size of our continent, I don't think Sun Tsu's would be a sound investment.

	13-04-2003 03:21									#12
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quote: While 'planning' for the worst is admirable, it does not always follow that actual tactical implementation should be for the worst case scenario... in fact, an overly defensive posture can sometimes provide the worst results.

In our case, 'the worst' would make itself known in 2 turns. Their initial stack is likely to be the only one with any punch to it, especially once EotS is on 1 turn Pikes/Horses.

It doesn't put us out of position for an offensive to keep a defensive posture for those 2 turns, and we can't make any sort of offensive push in that timeframe. We need the defensive troops to make our push. For Med Inf and Pikes, Arashi is going to be the staging point to hit Dissidentville, and the Desert of Tears the staging point for our WC's. I'd be in favor of Pikes and Med Inf in both Galleys (E coast Pike/Med Inf, W coast Pike/Pike), E to take out the Iron road (and colony if possible), and W to land on Grog Mountain to give us troop movement. When we hit Dissidentville, the advance troops converge at the crossroad to hold it, delaying any chance for a counterattack. If Vox tries to kill those units (especially the ones on Grog Mountain), all the better for us.

	13-04-2003 03:31									#13
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay 1) I'm starting to think we probably don't want to write off Monsoon as a loss after all. If we see a threat where we can't hold Monsoon and Arashi both, we write off Monsoon, but we don't just let Vox walk into it if we don't have to.

I agree. I'm so glad we placed it there and not adjacent to the mountains. now, if they want it, they will have to open themselves up to a ferocious counter.

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay 2) I still think walls in Arashi would make a lot of sense just in case Vox sends a bigger force than we've seen at us. If Vox does reach a point of attacking Arashi, walls would be worth a whole lot more than half a medieval infantry.

I would strongly agree with this second point. a town on a hill with walls and pikemen. wow, certainly a detterent. hopefully forcing them around to the fields where we can pick them off one by one

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay 5) Considering how many barracks we already have (or will have by the time we get our turn) and the small size of our continent, I don't think Sun Tsu's would be a sound investment.

I agree. Plus, its likely that all of the vox cities (or most) already have barracks as well.

	13-04-2003 03:38									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I'd be in favor of Pikes and Med Inf in both Galleys (E coast Pike/Med Inf, W coast Pike/Pike), E to take out the Iron road (and colony if possible), and W to land on Grog Mountain to give us troop movement. When we hit Dissidentville, the advance troops converge at the crossroad to hold it, delaying any chance for a counterattack. If Vox tries to kill those units (especially the ones on Grog Mountain), all the better for us.

It might be wise to build another galley or two to put pikes in and land them on the jungle road to prevent pillaging by retreating voxians. Otherwise, the WC's will have to be ferryed north and the whole northern push slowed considerably. I think this should be done the first turn of the counterstrike, before its obvious that d'ville will be lost.

Looking at the map, I see two squares of jungle road that we could directly offroad units onto, which would secure at least a WC navigable road to the isthmus.

	13-04-2003 03:55									#15
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I do not intend to let Monsoon be taken.

With MedInf and WCs protecting that part of the world, slowmover Immortals are force to cross a pretty damn good kill zone.

I'd like people to reconsider Cats from Monsoon and Sandstorm... we can rush them and then get back to a Temple and Workers.

How necessary are the Cyclone Workers to getting EotS up to one WC per turn? If not necessary, I'd rather focus on units for the moment.

	13-04-2003 03:58									#16
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Even if Vox would pillage both tiles of the jungle road, a gang of three workers could have it rebuilt in six turns (including the turns to move onto the tiles). So having Vox pillage the roads would not be a huge disaster.

I don't like the idea of splitting up our galleys. It's too easy to lose ninety shields' worth of invading force to thirty shields' worth of counterattack when galleys, especially regular galleys, operate as singletons. And if we pair our galleys on the western coast, we'd have the option of unloading our troops and going after a Voxian galley two on one if Vox tries to slip in additional forces by sea once we get there.

	13-04-2003 04:06									#17
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EotS needs 2 workers from Cyclone (temporarily) to get to 30 shields per turn in 2 turns. Hurricane needs Sandstorm's Worker (and the one finishing up the road 8 of Tornado) to get Hurricane up to 30 shields per turn in 5 turns.

If Vox's stack does turn out to be just what GoW shows in the screenshots, I'd rather have Hurricane build the Collosus. It negates the disadvantage of not having the extra Mountain mined for 3 turns because the Collosus builds in 7 turns either way, and gives us more time to build up food to run at a deficit (30 shields per turn in GA, 20 shields per turn when not). The alternative would be to build a Marketplace or Library there, as each would be relatively efficient builds at the 28/29 (I forget which) shields per turn we can have at that time.

	13-04-2003 04:11									#18
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Even if Vox would pillage both tiles of the jungle road, a gang of three workers could have it rebuilt in six turns (including the turns to move onto the tiles). So having Vox pillage the roads would not be a huge disaster.

Its not a huge disaster, but anything to speed up the end of Vox I'm in favor of. Also you aren't taking into account the turns to get the workers into position. Do we connect the road from our core to d'ville, then up through the jungle? Thats going to take more than six turns. It would take 4 turns or so just to move a worker to that first jungle tile from Arashi, assuming D'ville is under control. Granted we would probably move the workers in one square behind the invasion force to protect them, but still 6 turns is 6 more turns of war, esp when it would take two pikes to hold the road. Drop the two pikes on the jungle road that they need for iron, then swing them to the southwest. Even if they send units after the pikes, it would mean fewer units to destroy in d'ville.

	13-04-2003 04:13									#19
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Probably right about the Galleys. Maybe 3 Pikes up to the Iron crossroads in 2 galleys? They would be in dangerous waters for only 2 turns, being able to unload the Pikes the 2nd.

	13-04-2003 04:14									#20
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I see that Vox has sent their turn to lego. I'm about to wet myself in anticpation of what the save holds. Is it a SoD? or is it 5 immortals? I hope they don't disappoint.

	13-04-2003 04:18									#21
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Theseus, whether we can hold Monsoon is a matter of numbers. If all Vox has is what we've seen so far, a combination of the kill zone and pikes should be enough for us to hold it. If Vox can assemble the kind of force we've been afraid they might, we can't. By the way, if Vox starts massing forces across from Monsoon, walls there could be a good investment if we intend to fight for the city.

Regarding cash rushing catapults, I regard upgrading our two warriors and seven swords to medieval infantry and our three spears to pikes as higher priorities for our gold. Once we finish that, we can consider whether cash rushing cats in low-production cities is a good use of our gold.

Cyclone's best contribution to the war effort would be a cat every two turns if we want to use it for military production (since cats wouldn't care about it's not having a barracks). But I think the benefits of improving tiles around Tempest, building an aqueduct, and pumping up Tempest to a size where it can produce units faster would be greater.

	13-04-2003 04:30									#22
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Sorry, I have not made myself clear re Cats... I would like to see one each from Monsoon and Sandstorm, at least, and possibly one from each of the other non-Barracks towns. They can than go back to whatever other builds are appropriate.

Every citizen needs to know he / she contributed to the war effort!!

	13-04-2003 04:38									#23
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I think our citizens are smart enough to recognize that there are other ways to contribute to a war effort besides building military units.

	13-04-2003 04:43									#24
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Can Monsoon finish their Cat normally before Vox's stack hits them? One Cat 9 of Arashi with 3 Pikemen will almost surely force them down onto the flats, and possibly give us a 2 hp advantage stack to stack.

The Temple in Monsoon can then be started again. It's most important once Monsoon reaches size 3. At size 2 Monsoon has enough Grasslands to use right now.

Sandstorm's Worker on the other hand is worth 10 shields of military unit (20 shield units vs 30 shield units) for 2 turns in Hurricane (the mine takes 2 extra turns without it 4.5 vs 3). That gives us a potential 20 extra shields of units, plus the Worker.

	13-04-2003 04:43									#25
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We probably want Hurricane to build WCs and/or medieval infantry until either it gets in a position to produce one-turn pikes (or galleys) or we're sure the war is in hand. By the way, we may want a harbor in Hurricane so its thirty-shield production can turn to vet galleys when it reaches that production level. Edit: Also, a harbor would give us the option of bringing Hurricane down to 20 shields and getting more shields from Sandstorm if there are times when 20-shield or 40-shield units make more sense.

Last edited by nbarclay on 13-04-2003 at 04:49

	13-04-2003 04:49									#26
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Our Literacy rate is 3%... I wouldn't bet on it Nathan!

Pardon the OT, I always thought that the representative governments' efficiency in game should be linked heavily to the Literacy rate of the civ.

Catapults are going to be needed mostly to keep losses low once we invade N of the bottleneck if GoW's screenshots can be trusted, and will be built too late for the first wave in most cases if GoW is sending us misinformation.

	13-04-2003 04:53									#27
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The biggest problem with using catapults in an offensive will be getting them to the front. They're wheeled, so they can't trek through the mountans from Arashi to Dissidentville along the most direct route, and they're slow, so they can't use speed to make up for having to travel a longer distance to get to the front. When we can spare them, we may want a four-worker work crew with suitable defenders to finish our road north (using a leapfrog pattern to advance the road one tile per turn).

	13-04-2003 04:55									#28
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quote: I see that Vox has sent their turn to lego. I'm about to wet myself in anticpation of what the save holds. Is it a SoD? or is it 5 immortals? I hope they don't disappoint.

Hmmmm...

No Vox victory pictures yet... Have our WC's have all survived? Did the stack scare Mo off... Did Mo cause one of our units to retreat... Or did lightning strike and the 4.3% odds give us the victory?

* Aeson can't wait either.

	13-04-2003 05:00									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson EotS needs 2 workers from Cyclone (temporarily) to get to 30 shields per turn in 2 turns. Hurricane needs Sandstorm's Worker (and the one finishing up the road 8 of Tornado) to get Hurricane up to 30 shields per turn in 5 turns.

Then I'd say leave Cyclone on Workers, but let's get one Cat out of Sandstorm.

	13-04-2003 05:11									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Then I'd say leave Cyclone on Workers, but let's get one Cat out of Sandstorm.

Theseus, the the only tiles Sandstorm can use for extra production are currently unimproved mountains and deserts. (One of the mountains does at least have a river by it.) Further, it gets to keep its first two shields, but if it tries to get more, one is lost to waste. So until we get some more improved tiles for it to work, trying to use it as a production city is extraordinarily wasteful.

If you have a genuine, concrete strategic need for it to produce a cat, we can live with that waste. But if all that's involved is a whimsical, "I want every city to contribute troops to the war effort," I think the idea is ridiculous.