13-04-2003 05:18									#31
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Aeson Hmmmm... No Vox victory pictures yet... Have our WC's have all survived? Did the stack scare Mo off... Did Mo cause one of our units to retreat... Or did lightning strike and the 4.3% odds give us the victory? * Aeson can't wait either.

Well, we know for sure, if it was anything positive (for Vox) they would have posted something about it.

So I bet the immortal retreated to the mountain. Bet they weren't expecting to see that show of force that soon.

	13-04-2003 05:18									#32
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Nathan, I am not being whimsical at all.

Barracks towns should produce attack units. I would like non-Barracks towns to produce one Cat, unless there is an otherwise pressing need. This is especially true of towns near the northern front.

Cats are wonderful tools for open ground, as in kill zones. Put it this way: I'd rather have two Cats each in Arashi and Monsoon and attack unit production in Arashi than Walls in Arashi and *anything* in Monsoon.

	13-04-2003 05:54									#33
	Got spare money?

Theseus, does your analysis of the usefulness of cats hold up against a single massed attack, or does it assume an enemy that trickles in attackers a few at a time? I can see how cats could have a great deal of value as units that can do damage turn after turn with no risk of taking damage in return. But against a single massed attack, each cat would get only one shot on offense and one on defense, plus maybe an extra shot on offense if the initial attack comes at Arashi (allowing cats to strike from the mountain while the Voxian forces are moving in).

	13-04-2003 05:58									#34
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

No, that's all. But it's enough for me (rather than shields NOT contributing to the war effort).

	13-04-2003 06:10									#35
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I view helping Hurricane be in a position to produce 30-shield units sooner and helping Sandstorm get in a position to produce military units with less waste as contributions to the war effort. Granted, they're a little bit longer-term in when the payoff comes, but that does not render them unimportant.

And it would take Sandstorm four turns (not counting this one) to build a catapult if it sacrifices a lot of food, or six if it doesn't. That isn't exactly the most immediate of contributions either.

	13-04-2003 06:19									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

How about rushing the Cat?

Given our other monetary needs, can we fit in the cost of rushing Cats in Monsoon and Sandstorm?

	13-04-2003 06:38									#37
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

How about just the Cat in Monsoon? The Worker in Sandstorm will give us 20 extra production in Hurricane. That's a free 'Cat' right there. Granted it won't be a Cat, but it's the equivalent as far as overall shields worth of units.

	13-04-2003 06:52									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I'd rather leave Monsoon open regarding what it will produce for the moment. Once we get our existing units upgraded, we can decide whether we're best off rushing a cat, rushing walls, or leaving it on a temple. And if we do end up rushing something, we'll need less gold if we wait.

	13-04-2003 07:11									#39
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Of course we wait till the last safe moment to rush. We should see Vox's first stack on the Mountains of Dissidentville this turn. The second turn is safe for Monsoon, but the third it could be cut off from road access (the Cat could still escape S).

So rushing production on the Cat this turn would be safest, and the only sure way that we can get it to Arashi. Of course the size of the stack we see will tell all in that regard, we might be able to just let it build normally (in which case switching back to the temple would be good), or at least have 1 more turn of production before needing to rush it.

So, if we look to be losing Monsoon, the Cat. If we can hold it, the Temple?

	13-04-2003 07:18									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

How many shields are towards EotS' Barracks? If we were to rush up to 30 shields this turn (Horse/Sword), and make sure to get 10 shields production for next turn would it be worth it? I wouldn't mind paying gold in EotS for food we can store up, it should pay off well.

	13-04-2003 07:22									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Aeson, not sure I understood that last post...

	13-04-2003 07:28									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Right now I'm trying to finish the huge-map AU game, so I don't really want to load up last turn's save to check the exact status. I'll keep the thought of checking short-rushing options for EotS in mind, though.

	13-04-2003 07:31									#43
	Got spare money?

Ok... just an example: (I have no idea what EotS' production is at)

If EotS were at 23 shields towards a Barracks, producing 10 shields per turn (we can get there, think we are at 9 with max food though), and we want to complete the Barracks next turn, we switch production to a Horse/Sword/Temple and rush 7 shields for 28 g, then the 10 production will finish it next turn. It's cheaper than rushing the whole thing right now (17 shields), and finishes at the same time.

The reason something like this will save us food is that we aren't relying just on production. We'd need 17 shields to finish the barracks in one turn, and so would have to sacrifice food for production. (I don't think we can get 17 shields anyways, but it's just an example) This way we sacrifice gold for production, and probably a little bit of food (We'd use 3 FP's + 3 2 food tiles + 1 1 food tile = +7 food) instead of a lot of food by maximixing production. The Barracks ends up built either way.

Just depends on how many shields are in the box if it's going to be worthwhile or not.

	13-04-2003 10:42									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Ahhh... it's funny, we've never really discussed this much in the Strat Forum... in my head I also have called it "short-rushing" and do it fairly often, both in the early game and late (Arty/Infantry/Tank costs).

Yes, let us examine the possibility here.

	13-04-2003 12:37									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Turn arrived.

Team scores:

205 (+5) Gathering Storm
206 (+3) Demogyptica
173 (+3) Glory of War
206 (+3) Role Play
139 (+2) Vox Controli
209 (+4) Legoland

3 vet Immortals and 1 spearman at the mountain 2 of D-ville. The Immortal in the east (Harry the Horrible) retreated to the mountain. None of our WCs was harmed.

	13-04-2003 12:41									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Preliminary shot as "Map of the General Staff" on the way.

	13-04-2003 15:56									#47
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Redstar1 says that Legoland have built the Pyramids. Gathering Storm mourns.

	13-04-2003 16:01									#48
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Oh crap.

Well, at least we don't need it for the GA anymore.

What's next? GL? Colossus?

	13-04-2003 16:03									#49
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Is there any way we could use this prebuild for Leo's, or is it too late for that?

	13-04-2003 16:13									#50
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Because of the war with Vox - and a likely war with a Bobian civ(s) afterwards when they think we're weakened - I'd like to see us get the GL, put research down to 0% and horde gold for upgrades and rushing.

That's what I'd do in SP, but maybe the more experienced players have a better idea.

	13-04-2003 16:29									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

1. 3 to 4 tech isn't really that much. Besides, teams will probably make a deal to go different paths to deny us the free techs.
-
2. With the GL you don't them first anyway, so it would make as much sense to buy them as the last civ at bottom rate prices.
-
Did we really miss out on it by one measly turn....
-

	13-04-2003 16:30									#52
	Inflate your Upload Space

Good thing we didn't go public then :relieved:
-


BTW: how are building turns done in MP? We didn't get the pop-up, did we?

	13-04-2003 16:36									#53
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Are you supposed to get a pop-up when another nation has built a wonder in MP?

	13-04-2003 17:13									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Can't remember to be honest , but you hould see it on the F7 screen.

	13-04-2003 17:29									#55
	Increase Your PM Length

Lego owns the Pyramids. GoW is building the Great Library.

	13-04-2003 17:58									#56
	Support Apolyton

What concerns the wonder, I vote to switch to Sun Tzus next turn, after getting Feudalism. Considering the tech pace and excessive tech whoring in this game, the GL is not really worth the effort.

	13-04-2003 18:02									#57
	Tired of ads?

sh!t... one turn only

Serious change of plans. Sun Tsu doesn't seem right to me, as we have invested in many barracks already. Collosus is always nice, but would be wasting 200 shields. Great library is not worth it, as we have only 2 techs to go before it runs out. The lighthouse is a decent wonder, I would guess.

Now if we would miraclously get invention this turn, Leo would be superb... but it will probably be the lighthouse instead.

DeepO

	13-04-2003 18:05									#58
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Such a shame.
Say, if we constantly build new cities and increase the palace cost, while emphasizing food and commerce in Hurricane over shields, do you think we could use this prebuild for Leonardo's Workshop?
Another option is the Sistine Chapel. I'm not a big fan of happiness wonders on Chieftain, but wouldn't the Chapel let us have WLTPD throughout our empire until Hospitals? That's a nice boost.

	13-04-2003 18:06									#59
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Good points about the GL. Once again I stand corrected.

	13-04-2003 18:11									#60
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Shiber, we don't have time for that. We would need 4 or 5 cities at least for another palace cost increase, I guess. That means the wonder will complete next turn.

I thought Feud would also get to us next turn, which means that we should be able to switch to Suz Tsu (or any other wonder) in between setting the new tech, and "building" the palace. Farther off techs are no option... no Sistine for us.

DeepO