13-04-2003 21:20									#91
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel The lighthouse is obsolete at magnetism.

Obsolete, what the extra move point concerns. But the benefit of sea movement and trade is available to everyone already with Astronomy.

quote: The extra sea turn would greatly help a war. Since no doubt we would shoot for cavalry long before magnetism, the lighhouse would aid us considerably.

How? There are several 3-tile sea-to-coast crossings to RP, one even ends only 2 tiles apart from Madrid. Meaning with Astronomy, we can rush RP even with galleys without an extra move point. The lighthouse brings no considerable benefit on the way to Bob.

About saving a turn or two cutting Voxes iron, it would be nice to have, but to build a mediocre wonder for this when we can have a better one? I don't know.

	13-04-2003 21:27									#92
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The Pyramids are no longer on our list of things we can build, so if we go for Sun Tsu's, the way to do it is to move the laborer from the iron mountain onto a coast tile. That has the palace set to finish in two turns instead of one (by one shield!), so we can switch straight from the palace to Sun Tsu's. Although I'm tempted to be paranoid and set the build for the Great Library next turn just in case the game might figure out a way to give us an extra shield we don't want.

	13-04-2003 21:30									#93
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quote: WE're going to either have to take on all three civs at once or join a war in progress. There's no way that we can gain a foothold without the three joining against us.

Not really, they were all keen on joining or teaming-up against Vox, maybe (just maybe ) not so against us, things will change.
Sooner or later, one of them is going to take advantage of the situation of attacking someone on BoB, instead of the invader.
Although we would have to 'move' the city to hill of-course.
Besides, this strategy isn't going to succeed in 10 or 15 turns, lot of water under the bridge
-
Having looked at the save, going after RP directly from Olibanum (the only place possible I saw correctly) wouldn't the wisest of things to do IMHO.
We would land right next to their capital (lot's of units in the neighberhood?), we can't rush a harbor and we would leave ourselves vulnerable for a second front in the north.
Really, the only way ever to get onto BoB is through Wittlitch..
We have no use for the either GL
-

Maybe we should be concentrating on this eugh incident, instead of thinking about toppling the next regime, shouldn't we

	13-04-2003 21:34									#94
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay The Pyramids are no longer on our list of things we can build, so if we go for Sun Tsu's, the way to do it is to move the laborer from the iron mountain onto a coast tile. That has the palace set to finish in two turns instead of one (by one shield!), so we can switch straight from the palace to Sun Tsu's. Although I'm tempted to be paranoid and set the build for the Great Library next turn just in case the game might figure out a way to give us an extra shield we don't want.

We should be able to change the build order when we get prompted for the next research (choosing "the big picture" and then switching to the domestic advisor).

	13-04-2003 21:38									#95
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I gotta agree with Sir Ralph on this one.
The arguments regarding RP are weak, IMHO, and are only relevant if we intend to attack them before Astronomy.
Vox's attack force might be stronger than GoW's shots portray it. We are still weak militarily, compared to Vox, despite all the upgrades and the many new units that have entered service.
Plus, depriving Sun Tzu's (and hopefully Leo's as well, later on) from the rest of the world is sweet.

	13-04-2003 21:43									#96
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I'm thinking we probably want to move Hack onto the road this turn and have a spear cover him just in case Vox notices that he's really a swordsman or medieval infantry in disguise, not a lowly warrior, and takes a shot at him with a spear. We can move one of our two mountain spears into Arashi and plan on upgrading both of those two spears to pikes next turn. We move the warrior and sword we pulled out of Hurricane last turn into Arashi this turn, right?

Yes to both.

	13-04-2003 21:48									#97
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I vote Sun Tzu as well. I doubt we'll go intercontinental with Galleys, so the Lighthouse just doesn't do it for me. Agree with the previously stated weaknesses of the Colossus and the GLib.

Any thoughts on how we lost the Pyramids? I was impressed with our build strategy.

	13-04-2003 21:55									#98
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If Lego had a city near their capital with four or five bonus grasslands (and maybe a food bonus), it wouldn't have been that hard, especially if they started right away. Remember that EotS was competing with Hurricane for fur tiles through most of our build.

	13-04-2003 21:56									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I vote Sun Tzu as well. I doubt we'll go intercontinental with Galleys, so the Lighthouse just doesn't do it for me. Agree with the previously stated weaknesses of the Colossus and the GLib.

I agree. Even if we built the Lighthouse, I wouldn't want to attack before Caravels. The journey across the crossing is still several turns, and I'd rather land with ships with a bigger capacity.

quote: Any thoughts on how we lost the Pyramids? I was impressed with our build strategy.

Well, it's really easy to play the smart guy after the deed was done, but since you ask, I think our major mistake was building those barracks in Hurricane. We should have made our minds that Hurricane was going to build a wonder now, a big, sought-after wonder, and barracks just aren't right. I would have voted for that decision, even considering the risks involved.
Edit: come to think about it, that was before we realized how fast techs fly in this game and abandoned the idea of building the GL in favor of the Pyramids.

Btw: what are RP building? They told us that they were probably going to try for either the Pyramids or the GLib. Now that both are no longer options, where do you think they'll be aiming?
I'd say that RP would like to have Leo's. It fits their plans well, if I see things as they do.
Do you think that they have a prebuild? How big would you say it is? Certainly smaller than their palace cost, but would you say that it's half of it, or more?
We can't really tell much by guessing, I'm afraid. We do know, however, that GoW's prebuild is small; it's certainly less than the cost of the GLib, and I think that they started building it with a Pyramids prebuild, not a Palace prebuild (otherwise, I figure that they wouldn't be able to switch to the GLib now).

	13-04-2003 21:58									#100
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Pyramids are buildable before 1000BC... we just started much later than they did.

I really thought they would finish it sooner if they were going to beat us. They either switched from a Palace well before they needed too, or are at about 8 shields per turn (avg since they switched) in that city.

	13-04-2003 22:07									#101
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The one big advantage to the Great Lighthouse is that if we'd attack RP across the narrowest part of the channel using either galleys or caravels, our round-trip time would be two turns instead of three (if I'm counting correctly). That's a 50% higher rate of delivering reinforcements. So the Great Lighthouse could be worth quite a bit if we see an opening to hit RP while they're fighting someone else.

On the other hand, there's a lot to be said for ensuring that no Bobian civ will automatically have free barracks in every city.

	13-04-2003 22:13									#102
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It's really a pity, as they certainly debated on wether to switch goverments or not...
All in the game I guess

quote: We're still rated weak compared with Vox in spite of having just built two galleys and two WCs this turn. I'd hoped building so much would bring us up to average relative to them.

That's is slightly worrying indeed.
Wasn't there a thread in the strategy forum recently, that described how this worked?

	13-04-2003 22:21									#103
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When is the chat with Lego? I wouldn't mind letting them know they beat us to it (not necessarily exactly how much, just that we were making a play for it and they beat us), it takes some of the wind out of the lines RP has likely been feeding them. A good natured 'we should have known better than to try and beat you guys to a building project' type of atmosphere might be helpful to the rest of the negotiations.

It will be something they can figure out by the timing of our build of Sun Tzu's anyways. There is an upper limit as to how many shields per turn a city could have at this point, and Hurricane is close to it.

	13-04-2003 22:21									#104
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Ah, I thought it was one of Nathan's threads

If anyone else is interested:

Average strengths

	13-04-2003 22:23									#105
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I wouldn't say we did it by one turn though, as that would give away what our palace costs.

	13-04-2003 22:26									#106
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The strategy forum thread involved only limited testing. I'd be interested to see how the calculations rate WCs compared with immortals; do the calculations take mobility into consideration, or just attack and defense values? In any case, the fact that Vox's warrior upgrade unit has an attack of four and ours has an attack of three definitely gives them an edge in military strength for the moment. But when we upgrade to medieval infantry...

	13-04-2003 22:41									#107
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To be honest, I think it's better that they beat us to the Pyramids. For our friendship, and the world view of our two civs. Our GA is already started, and we do have good enough growth rates already. The Pyramids would have boosted that of course, and it might have scared the other teams. Our score progression will hopefully be somewhat matched by Lego's now and we won't be the defacto target.

Sun Tzu's is as good a wonder now that our GA has started. I wouldn't count on it giving us any Barracks in captured Voxian cities. They are likely to play like Lux at that point, and their whipping probably means we want to raze everything we could keep anyway. It will help if we send Settlers along with our stacks though.

Taking out a civ with Sun Tzu's later in the game becomes very annoying. Bombardment stacks can't destroy the Barracks, and so the defenders can't be bombarded down over the course of several turns. If the Pyramids are the 'target' wonder, Sun Tzu's is the avoidance one.

The only problem I see with Sun Tzu's is that we might lose the Collosus too by building it. We were probably going to be building units anyways with the current situation, so it's not really a big deal.

-----------------

The military advisor doesn't properly account (if it accounts for it at all) for the advantage of movement. WC's and Horsemen are undervalued in relation to their worth. Immortals get ~6 points, while a WC gets ~3... even though they are usually about on equal terms (Immortals more valuable in the Mountains/Hills, WC/Horsemen more valuable in the flats).

Also our Swords are slightly less valuable than their Immortals. I wouldn't be suprised if we are at or even slightly above Vox's number of units. We should upgrade one unit at a time when possible (checking the military advisor between each one, all can happen on the same turn) to pinpoint just where Vox's military stands at.

	13-04-2003 22:45									#108
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We still need a decision on whether to go ahead and add a worker to EotS this turn before it grows and whether to short rush our barracks there.

	13-04-2003 22:53									#109
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It costs us 44g? It's worth it IMO, in conjunction with adding the Worker. That 44g + Worker basically gives us an extra unit (if we would wait the extra turn for the Barracks to build, it cuts out a unit), and/or several 'upgrades' from 20 to 30 shield per turn units.

We need the Spears upgraded, and it leaves us enough cash for them right? The Pikes then give us the extra turn we need to upgrade the Swords. That initial stack has to go around us. If they try force their way through they might not even kill a single Pike (with 3 of them on the Mountain 9 of Arashi).

Let's cover the Workers with a Sword or two this turn (regs) and move all the Spears back into Arashi for upgrading next. The road will be done in time for them to move back out and fortify next to Vox's stack the following turn (if they go that way).

	13-04-2003 23:07									#110
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One sword on the mountain should be enough to keep Vox's spearmen from attacking, and would avoid tipping our hand about what swordsmen we really have in the area. By the way, until more forces than Vox has ready now get in position to attack, I'd be tempted to garrison the mountain with just two pikes and a sword and keep the other pike in Arashi. With a little luck, if we keep Vox from seeing our medieval infantry, they won't have a clue we have them until we strike - and even then, Vox might end up just knowing a bunch of their units died, not what killed them. But if we put all three pikes on the mountain, they'll see that our lead defender in Arashi is a medieval infantry.

	13-04-2003 23:09									#111
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Sorry for chiming in a completely off-topic matter, but I don't want to ask this in a public forum, and we have enough native english speakers here. Can anybody explain me, what a Grand Mall Seizure is?

	13-04-2003 23:10									#112
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quote: 3 vet Immortals and 1 spearman at the mountain 2 of D-ville.

Can we get the names?

If they are vets... how did they get there? 1 or even 2 could have been whipped in Dissidentville, but I'll have to check the growth pattern to be sure. We've only seen 1 vet Immortal from the screenshots, and the Warriors headed that way were regs.

	13-04-2003 23:12									#113
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General Jon, Beta the Bold, and Dissident the Deadly.

	13-04-2003 23:14									#114
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A grand mal is an epileptic seizure (grand mal is a type of epilepsy). They are characterized with violent spasms and loss of consciousness.

	13-04-2003 23:16									#115
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I see, thanks.

	13-04-2003 23:19									#116
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We're gonna short-rush the Barracks AND build Sun Tzu?

	13-04-2003 23:19									#117
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From encarta.com's article on epilepsy:

quote: In a second type of epilepsy, known as generalized seizure, tonic clonic, grand mal, or convulsion, the whole brain is involved. This type of seizure is often signaled by an involuntary scream, caused by contraction of the muscles that control breathing. As loss of consciousness sets in, the entire body is gripped by a jerking muscular contraction. The face reddens, breathing stops, and the back arches. Subsequently, alternate contractions and relaxations of the muscles throw the body into sometimes violent agitation such that the person may be subject to serious injury. After the convulsion subsides, the person is exhausted and may sleep heavily. Confusion, nausea, and sore muscles are often experienced upon awakening, and the individual may have no memory of the seizure. Attacks occur at varying intervals, in some people as seldom as once a year and in others as frequently as several times a day. About 8 percent of those subject to generalized seizures may have status epilepticus, in which seizures occur successively with no intervening periods of consciousness. These attacks may be fatal unless treated promptly with the drug diazepam.

	13-04-2003 23:20									#118
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I don't like it. We don't see any of those names in GoW's screenshots, and they didn't have time to whip 3 in Dissidentville. Still a chance that they ferried a few on the E around Grog's sight, but then why aren't Vox's other troops there? They should be.

If GoW is lying to us (next turn will be almost for sure), lets pretend to stay in the dark about it. We can't tell for sure before they get Feudalism out of us... probably next turn it becomes apparent.

Are any units on the mountain 3 from dissidentville? (have one of our WC's check)

	13-04-2003 23:21									#119
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The barracks is needed in EotS no matter what; Sun Tsu's would come too late. Short-rushing it lets us get an extra WC or half a medieval infantry that we would not get otherwise, which is only a very slightly worse return on the gold invested than the 50% return on upgrades.

	13-04-2003 23:23									#120
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quote: We're gonna short-rush the Barracks AND build Sun Tzu?

Sun Tzu's will be too late to help us in EotS. We need the barracks there to stop Vox's invasion. 1 turn sooner means 1 extra Pike/Horse, which is worth 44g IMO.