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cinch
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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Jul 2002
time: 22:27
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quote:
We should have been thinking about it. |
Definitely.
They wasted no time in securing the oil fields; I would have expected them to show the same level of respect for the history of humanity.
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Static Universe
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If the responsibility for policing Iraq hadn't been given to a corrupt civilian subcontractor, these control problems wouldn't be happening.
Scandal-hit US firm wins key contracts
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DynCorp, which has donated more than £100,000 to the Republican Party, began recruiting for a private police force in Iraq last week on behalf of the US State Department.
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Shouldn't the military commanders play this role? Haven't they always done so? The local police have always been under the control of the occupying general at the time of conquest, then handed back to the new government after its establishment.
Bush is making a big mistake trying to outsource this function. I mean seriously, where has this type of thing ever been attempted by private companies? This was a huge risk, and the commercial bent of the web of protection being thrown up is going to brand the new police even more as tool of Western business, thus undermining civilian control in Iraq.
Also, I think Bush made a big tactical mistake not to defend cultural artifacts more closely. These items are of great significance in the ME right now, and museums an important Arab cultural symbol since the Isrealis seized the Palestine Archaeological Museum and the Dead Sea Scrolls in the Six Day War.
And surely some of these looted items while ultimately wind up in Western museums some day, or so the Iraqi's will fear after things settle down. They won't blame the looters, they'll blame the Americans.
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DRoseDARs
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"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:27
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Ok, at least one more post tonight, then bed...
Static:
The contracted police would not have helped in this instance simply because the coalition forces were still encountering resistance from the last of Saddam's forces. They wouldn't have put civilian workers in harm's way. So really, it was the military's responsibility to protect those sites and the leadership's to order it done.
Second, doesn't look like I'm going to like this contracted police force idea...
Herzog:
This isn't a matter of the "artistic value" of one artifact over another. The Lincoln Memorial is just as valuable as any Summerian text. This is a matter of them both contributing to Humanity's collective culture; they are both part of each and every one of us. The loss of either is a loss to all of us. The only difference is that the Lincoln Memorial and other recent "artifacts" can be repaired or rebuild since they are so young: we know what they are supposed to look like and what they mean. On the other hand, I know that a lot of the bigger history museums have a large number of ancient artifacts in storage that haven't been looked at beyond cataloging, simply because the curators haven't gotten to them yet. I fear that many pieces in Baghdad may have slipped into the abyss, never to be understood because the curators were unable to study them more properly.
They can never be "rebuilt" nor "replaced" because they were never studied in full. A photograph probably will never be adequet for study. Of course, then again, the looters stole and destroyed thousands of documents and records, so even that route may be f*cked in most cases...
And you're right. Titanic sucked.  
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Eight thousand years of civilization ... gone
What a load of rubbish.
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Traianvs
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Belgium, land of plenty (corruption)
Jan 2000
time: 06:27
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GODDAMNIT
I'm pissed off. As an archaeologist, reading this event in the paper infuriated me especially because Mesopotamia is my key interest  ....
Simply placing a tank and 10 soldiers would have prevented the looting, just now they moved up a few tanks there, but guess what, .... it's too late!! they frikking have 300k troops swarming all over Iraq, they must have a few spare troops I would think, no?
Oh well, next to the countless ancient sites that have been destroyed by bombings in the Gulf wars, now the national museum has to go as well. A fecking great job, you should really be proud of it! 
And to all those people who justify the destruction of a few (about 170k was the lates number I heard) antiquities because after all it's because we have to remove Saddam: y-o-u a-r-e a-l-l s-t-u-p-i-d m-o-f-o-s
Imagine the destruction of your nice shiny office building, including all your documents and data... now wouldn't you be pissed off??
And to everyone with a simple mind like Jaguar Warrior here
quote:
Oh no! Millenium old plates are going to actually have people eating from them! US troops should be tried for war crimes! |
Hehe goddamn I really do wonder how you graduated from kindergarten... maybe poppa passed on a few diamonds on to the school director?  you fool, I have no words to describe my anger, bah!
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Bereta_Eder
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Allegendly, the director of the museum said she has lost all of her family, killed by the bombs and now she has lost the history of her land too.
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Frogman
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I was very disappointed that the US didn't guard the hospitals and the museum from looters. Instead they hole up in the palace. It was a disgusting disregard for human life and Iraqi history. Hell, they didn't even protect the information ministry. How many important documents were left to burn. Just stupid, there is no excuse. They had the manpower to defend whatever they wanted and they just didn't care. Who sets their priorities?
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gunkulator
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So why didn't France of Germany offer to dispatch human targets, er, guards, for this oh so precious museum? I'm sure the US would have gladly accepted them. Surely they saw the need, yes?
Let's get down to the fundamental equation:
Protecting ancient artifacts is worth endangering the lives of ____ soldiers.
Please provide an answer or kindly kwitcherbiatchin.
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gunkulator
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But Bush has already answered your question. He believes it is worth the lives of a hundred+ soldiers to liberate Iraq.
Ok, now it's your turn. Kindly answer the question.
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gsmoove23
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Right across the street, soldiers stationed at the defense ministry. 
But even as some Iraqis sought to heal the city's wounds, others, fired by anger and revenge, broke through to the little that was left of untouched government buildings after four days of continuous looting. Among other buildings afire or still smoldering in eastern Baghdad today were the city hall, the Agriculture Ministry and so thoroughly burned that heat still radiated 50 paces from its front doors the National Library. Not far from the National Museum of Iraq, which was looted on Thursday and Friday with the loss of almost all of its store of 170,000 artifacts, the library was considered another of the repositories of an Iraqi civilization dating back at least 7,000 years.
By tonight, virtually nothing was left of the library and its tens of thousands of old manuscripts and books, and of archives like Iraqi newspapers tracing the country's turbulent history from the era of Ottoman rule through to Mr. Hussein. Reading rooms and the stacks where the collections were stored were reduced to smoking vistas of blackened rubble.
Across the street, a lone American tank roared out of the monumental gates of the Defense Ministry, untouched by the looters presumably because they knew that the ministry, at least, would be under close guard by American troops.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...red
_city
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DRoseDARs
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"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
time: 21:27
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A few of you have already said what I was going to say in response. But I'll reiterate anyway...
First of all, it wouldn't have taken the entire military might of the US to prevent the looting. Rotating dozen-man teams to cover individual building would have been more than enough to prevent looting by Baghdad citizens.
Secondly, as far as engaging army forces, does anyone honestly believe the Iraqi people are stupid enough to riot and loot EN MASSE if they felt they were any longer in danger from Saddam's forces? Clearly, the moment the looting began was the moment Baghdad fell to Coalition forces. For the first time in 22 years or so, they felt "safe" to do as they please (just wish they'd found something else that was pleasurable to do instead of looting...like having a post-war Baby Boom of their own  ).
Third, if defending the airport, defending the Oil, Agricultural, and Health and Publice Service ministries was worth ____ lives of soldiers, then protecting the hospitals, universties, and museum was worth the same number of soldiers lives.
Fourth, even though there was and still is some sporadic resistance in Baghdad, strategically securing a wide number of buildings throughout the city would make it easier for the Coalition to blanket the city and engage enemy forces in all directions. Modifying the island-hopping method used in the Pacific Theater of WWII, sections of the city of Baghdad could have been searched and secured rapidly due to the overwhelming number of ground forces in the city. Saddam's forces wouldn't have anywhere to run, anywhere to hide. Those that didn't surrender forthwith would have been dealt with swiftly, either captured or killed, and the city would have avoided a great deal of looting to start with. Likewise, rapid and wide deployment like that would have made policment (<- is that a word?) of the city come that much quicker.
Gunkulator, if you tell us how many soldiers were used to defend those three ministries and the airport in Baghdad, you'll have your aproximate answer as to how many soldiers the hospitals, the universities, and the museum were worth. Each of these installations were just as important to the present and future of Iraq, if not more so.
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CapTVK
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Voorburg, the Netherlands, Europe
Jan 1970
time: 05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by gsmoove23
Right across the street, soldiers stationed at the defense ministry.
But even as some Iraqis sought to heal the city's wounds, others, fired by anger and revenge, broke through to the little that was left of untouched government buildings after four days of continuous looting. Among other buildings afire or still smoldering in eastern Baghdad today were the city hall, the Agriculture Ministry and so thoroughly burned that heat still radiated 50 paces from its front doors the National Library. Not far from the National Museum of Iraq, which was looted on Thursday and Friday with the loss of almost all of its store of 170,000 artifacts, the library was considered another of the repositories of an Iraqi civilization dating back at least 7,000 years.
By tonight, virtually nothing was left of the library and its tens of thousands of old manuscripts and books, and of archives like Iraqi newspapers tracing the country's turbulent history from the era of Ottoman rule through to Mr. Hussein. Reading rooms and the stacks where the collections were stored were reduced to smoking vistas of blackened rubble.
Across the street, a lone American tank roared out of the monumental gates of the Defense Ministry, untouched by the looters presumably because they knew that the ministry, at least, would be under close guard by American troops.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...red
_city |
Hmmmmm....when the Taliban destroyed two old Bhudda statues the western world (and many a poster here) screamed bloody murder about their backward regime. Now we see a part of the world heritage getting ransacked and burned down right before our eyes. We had the means to stop it or at least preverve a part of it. But you know what we did it in the end?
NOTHING, we simply stood by and let it happen...
You know I a way I'm glad that many of those oh-so cultural clods on this forum are exposed for the moral hypocrites they are. Who gives a **** about a musuem and a couple of old vases? Who gives a **** about history anyway? Who gives a **** about lessons from the past?
The ultimate irony in all of this is that is supposed to be a site about civilization as mentioned by another poster. Seems that notion must have slipped us by. AH was damn right , the rot indeed has set in OT.
Gives you an important wakeupcall on where the average OT poster stands these days. I won't forget what was mentioned in this thread. 
So much for the moral highground... 
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gunkulator
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quote:
Originally posted by DRoseDARs
A few of you have already said what I was going to say in response. But I'll reiterate anyway...
First of all, it wouldn't have taken the entire military might of the US to prevent the looting. Rotating dozen-man teams to cover individual building would have been more than enough to prevent looting by Baghdad citizens. |
simple as that, eh? Didn't know you were an expert on looting prevention. Tell you what. Submit this plan of yours to the US military. If they accept it, then I'll admit you are right. Until then, I'll trust the military commanders in the field.
quote:
Third, if defending the airport, defending the Oil, Agricultural, and Health and Publice Service ministries was worth ____ lives of soldiers, then protecting the hospitals, universties, and museum was worth the same number of soldiers lives. |
These institutions represent the hope for the future for Iraq. Choices have to be made in war. Do you protect the past to save the future?
quote:
Fourth, even though there was and still is some sporadic resistance in Baghdad, strategically securing a wide number of buildings throughout the city would make it easier for the Coalition to blanket the city and engage enemy forces in all directions. Modifying the island-hopping method used in the Pacific Theater of WWII... |
Again, I'm not an urban warfare expert and I suspect you are not one either. Typing words like "rapid deployment" or "island hopping" means nothing unless you know the tactical situation. Do you know a) the terrain, b) the number of snipers in the area, c) their weapons, d) cover positions for guards, e) access routes to and from the building, f) how clear the area is of Saddam's mercenaries, etc. I know I don't know so I'm not going to second guess the field commander who does know.
quote:
Gunkulator, if you tell us how many soldiers were used to defend those three ministries and the airport in Baghdad, you'll have your aproximate answer as to how many soldiers the hospitals, the universities, and the museum were worth. Each of these installations were just as important to the present and future of Iraq, if not more so. |
You miss the point of the question. I'm asking how many lives YOU think are worth expending to secure the area. Tell me, in lives lost, what this museum is worth.
Oh and that's only part one of my question. Part two is: Compose a letter to the families of those who bravely fell defending this vitally important position. Be sure to explain exactly what they have given their lives for. Remember, YOU made this decision, not the US Military, so it is up to you to provide the rationale
Part three is extra credit: a voluteer form for those wishing, right now, to go over to Iraq and defend what is left of the museum. Any takers?
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Carver
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reprocessing plutonium, Yongbyon, NK
Jan 2002
time: 23:27
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quote:
Originally posted by gunkulator
You miss the point of the question. I'm asking how many lives YOU think are worth expending to secure the area. Tell me, in lives lost, what this museum is worth.
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Protecting treasures from the birth of civilization is worth many lives. But there would have been no more than 1 or 2 US casualties, probably none.
quote:
Oh and that's only part one of my question. Part two is: Compose a letter to the families of those who bravely fell defending this vitally important position. Be sure to explain exactly what they have given their lives for. Remember, YOU made this decision, not the US Military, so it is up to you to provide the rationale
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They would have given their lives to save a huge portion of the heritage of the world. That is much more important and commendable than dying to seize an oil well before the Iraqis can set it on fire, or dying to "save" a village in Vietnam that doesn't want to be "saved."
Last edited by Carver on 15-04-2003 at 02:54
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14-04-2003 10:51
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