15-04-2003 17:43									#181
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Tuomerehu In my opinion, this is nothing compared to the atrocity committed by Taleban in March, 2001. Nothing.

I don't think that making comparisons on disasters that have to do with items of archeological value is adequate.
But if you must do a comparison is a budda of gigantic proporsions more valueable than around 170.000 ancient items that where stolen or destroyed in the fore mentioned museum?

	15-04-2003 17:45									#182
	Tired of ads?

and of course those who got them can sell them at "nice" prices to artifact collectors and have quite a sum of money...

	15-04-2003 17:52									#183
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara [Q] Originally posted by Jon Miller Too loot the place for stuff to sell. It's worth a lot of money.

If they do sell them after all.
At list the one or the other way they would sooner or later return to the scientific community through other museums, galleries or private collections.
What I am afraid more is that most of them will not be sold but rather been used for other purposes...

	15-04-2003 18:03									#184
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten All of you who think Baghdad is such a safe place might want to review what happened in Umm Qasr. I don't want US soldiers taking any foolish risks until we are sure that all the irregular forces in Baghdad are neutralized...

Go home then...

	15-04-2003 18:16									#185
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

What annoys me about this is that a breakdown of law and order could have been predicted. There could have been an effort to deal with the situation through curfews or prohibited areas or limiting movement around the city (like keeping some of the bridges closed) and there wasn't.

The likelihood is that some of this material was stolen to order by criminal gangs and will end up on the international black market for historical artefacts. It will be lost to archaeology, at least temporarily. Some of the pieces will end up in the hands of american collectors, some of whom got the money to buy these items through the oil business. I don't believe that was a deliberate intention but it will happen and it stinks. The USA just stood back and allowed criminal enterprise to flourish (again).

If there are any significant museums in Syria or Iran now might be a good time to start worrying about their collections.

	15-04-2003 18:20									#186
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: If they do sell them after all. At list the one or the other way they would sooner or later return to the scientific community through other museums, galleries or private collections. What I am afraid more is that most of them will not be sold but rather been used for other purposes...

look at my ancient babylonian ornamental vase turned kitchen pot!

	15-04-2003 18:32									#187
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten You've done nothing to show that America is at fault for the museum's looting; all the cliche pronouncements in the world won't change that.

The museum was looted because Baghdad had no authority left to prevent the masses from pillaging everything they could which was caused by the sudden and by force overwhelming of the Iraqi regime by the British-American invasion in the city. So Americans - and British - have something to do with the looting after all. Can't blame the Iraqi's or the Americans alone but all together whether you like it or not.

These accusations, right or wrong is the result of a frustrated world public opinion which condemn the war even if this results to the remove of a despicable dictator like Saddam.

	15-04-2003 18:45									#188
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I still don't see anyone adressing the main point why should the US have expected the IRaquesse to loot (And vandalise) their own museums?

Common, even in b-class movies of mass destruction you can see looting taking place

	15-04-2003 18:53									#189
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

They're Iraqi artifacts aren't they? They've just moved from the hands of a small number of curators back into the hands of the Iraqi people. Seems like social justice to me.

	15-04-2003 18:56									#190
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH They're Iraqi artifacts aren't they? They've just moved from the hands of a small number of curators back into the hands of the Iraqi people. Seems like social justice to me.

If you are serious about this, I pity you. The hands of some criminal looters are not the hands of the Iraqi people.

	15-04-2003 18:58									#191
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Assuming that Iraq stabilizes and gets a better gov't than what it had, I say we postpone all this bellyaching for now and ten years later ask the Iraqis this question:

Would you rather:

a) Have lived under Saddam's enlightened dictatorship for the last 10 years - with the added bonus of knowing that the artifacts were safe in the museum.

or

b) Enjoy the freedoms you have now but, sorry, the artifacts are in some fat cat's personal collection.

	15-04-2003 18:59									#192
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH They're Iraqi artifacts aren't they? They've just moved from the hands of a small number of curators back into the hands of the Iraqi people. Seems like social justice to me.

More precisely, they have moved from a museum where they were displayed to the general public and available for archeological research to small number of thugs who'll sell them to rich people from around the world.
I wouldn't call that "social justcie" but I am an idiot

	15-04-2003 19:01									#193
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Thugs? Enterprising Iraqi folk who see an opportunity to re-distribute the wealth, thugs? Are you sure you're a eurocomm?

	15-04-2003 19:04									#194
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by yavoon honestly I think the museum is a tragedy too. but what I see is everyone jumping like rabid wombats onto its carcass in an attempt to smeer the US as much as humanly possible. and I feel a desire to defend against that.

I can't know for sure but I have the feeling that everyone that have blamed the US directly or indirectly meant the US administration and specifically the part that planned and supported the war in Iraq.

	15-04-2003 19:07									#195
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Gunkulator :
You are doing exactly what must I find disgracious. You are minimizing the loss simply because you are in favor of the war. I find it disgraceous too when anti-war people only use this catastrophe to bash the US.

Instead of mourning the huge loss humanity has known, this thread has become a place where flag waving opposes US bashing, and the incident becomes secundary.

This thread deserves its one star

	15-04-2003 19:09									#196
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Thugs? Enterprising Iraqi folk who see an opportunity to re-distribute the wealth, thugs? Are you sure you're a eurocomm?

People who take the collective wealth for themselves through the use of force are thugs. I don't see why a communist should forbid them

	15-04-2003 19:10									#197
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Thugs? Enterprising Iraqi folk who see an opportunity to re-distribute the wealth, thugs? Are you sure you're a eurocomm?

Sorry, Spencer, I generally like you, but this is the dumbest troll I heard for at least a week. According to your definition, Al Capone and the Mafia were just "enterprising folks", since they only use an opportunity to redistribute wealth? If it wasn't so sad, I would laugh about it.

	15-04-2003 19:14									#198
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

It seems that the Iraqis (at least some of them) are well equipped to prosper in a US style democracy. Perhaps it is best that they don't have inconvenient reminders that there is a world history before 1776.

	15-04-2003 19:15									#199
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Indeed. I for one vote for protecting people over old shards of pottery. Oh, and I think I just heard Al Jazeera report that some really cute kittens and adorable puppies were lost because the US was protecting a marketplace instead of the animal shelter. Oh the shame!

And I am sure that US troops would protect Bush's dogs with more eagerness than the articafts or the lives of the Iraqi people

	15-04-2003 19:16									#200
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Gotta quote Rumsie-Dumbsie:

"Free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things"

	15-04-2003 19:19									#201
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Azazel look at my ancient babylonian ornamental vase turned kitchen pot!

Look at that ancient babylonian scroll. It must do a hell of a great job for firing up the woods in the fireplace!

	15-04-2003 19:20									#202
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Sir Ralph :
Yes, we've heard of it. It means Saddam was the freest of people

	15-04-2003 19:33									#203
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH They're Iraqi artifacts aren't they? They've just moved from the hands of a small number of curators back into the hands of the Iraqi people. Seems like social justice to me.

In the museum they were part of all Iraqi people but in the hands of the looters are arbitrarily in their own possession only.

The curators simply supervised them and the archeologists who excavated them gave the unique opurtunity to people all over the world to learn about human history.

	15-04-2003 19:37									#204
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Don't worry, Keygen, THAT won't happen. They will be solved for good prices to "private collectors". Really.

	15-04-2003 19:40									#205
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Azazel They will be solved for good prices to "private collectors". Really.

Makes me wish I was rich. Wonder if Gates has an interest in antiquities.

	15-04-2003 19:41									#206
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

of course anyone who is found in the possession of such artifacts should be charged with accessory to crime. and that should be announced now. just a minor discouragmenet...

	15-04-2003 19:45									#207
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Don't worry, Keygen, THAT won't happen. They will be solved for good prices to "private collectors". Really.

I pray for that Azazel
Some will but some might not...

Some will return back to the public view through other museums eventually.

	15-04-2003 19:52									#208
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Sorry, Spencer, I generally like you, but this is the dumbest troll I heard for at least a week. According to your definition, Al Capone and the Mafia were just "enterprising folks", since they only use an opportunity to redistribute wealth? If it wasn't so sad, I would laugh about it.

Its why I dont troll much. I dont seem to have the knack.

But then the whole thread is one big troll. If someone can tell me how 10-20K soldiers can maintain security against irregular fighters and at the same time police 5M Iraqis in Baghdad I'd like to know. But guess what, someone will blame the US for not doing so!

	15-04-2003 19:52									#209
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

All this made me think of this, which accomodatingly enough has been written also in english in the Boston Globe (1.4.1999)

quote: ATHENS—1821. Greeks are fighting for their independence. In Athens, they besiege the Acropolis, a stronghold of the Turkish occupiers. As the siege grinds on, the Turks' ammunition runs short. They begin to dismantle sections of the Parthenon, prying out the 2,300-year-old lead clamps and melting them down for bullets. The Greek fighters, horrified at this defacement of their patrimony, send the Turks a supply of bullets. Better to arm their foes, they decide, than to let the ancient temple come to harm.

It can well be that those that loot the Iraqi museums are criminals let out of prison for some reason...

	15-04-2003 19:58									#210
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Assuming that Iraq stabilizes and gets a better gov't than what it had, I say we postpone all this bellyaching for now and ten years later ask the Iraqis this question: Would you rather: a) Have lived under Saddam's enlightened dictatorship for the last 10 years - with the added bonus of knowing that the artifacts were safe in the museum. or b) Enjoy the freedoms you have now but, sorry, the artifacts are in some fat cat's personal collection.

What's your point here?
What do you want to prove?
That the war is justified?
Or that the people who leaved in Iraq in the past and their contribution are of no significance?