15-04-2003 02:26									#151
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator simple as that, eh? Didn't know you were an expert on looting prevention. Tell you what. Submit this plan of yours to the US military. If they accept it, then I'll admit you are right. Until then, I'll trust the military commanders in the field.

You obviously don't know that of all things, military leaders cannot be trusted.. Of course there are many that are smart and seize control of the situation, but sometimes tactical mistakes are made, and quite often too, even on the highest level... How many blunders that were made in WW1 (and 2) for example, due to the incompetence of the military leaders...

You don't need to be a rocketscientist to figure out how to protect a building such as this one

	15-04-2003 02:42									#152
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gunkulator,

There are a number of buildings throughout Baghdad that have been protected without loss of any life. For one, the Defense Ministry right across from the National Library and not far from the National Museum. The Iraqi looters don't seem to be stupid and have not as of yet charged armed soldiers defending positions.

As for too few soldiers being in Baghdad, well there were plenty of people saying we needed more men, we needed to advance more cautiously... This is simply a side effect of our stategy, built to keep an unpopular war palatable to the public, go figure.

	15-04-2003 03:14									#153
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This is even a worse cultural catastrophy than the allied bombing of Monte Cassino in WW2. But I am not surprised. I suppose Bush couldn't care less about some old pots he probably didn't even know of. He would probably order the bombing of the Pyramids if Usama or Saddam was hiding in one.

Very few events so far prove that the intentions of this war were to liberate Iraq. I think the intention was to increase the self-confidence of the American people by go kicking some ass, thus win Bush a second term. Just look at the Stars and Stripes-fanatics we see here every day. Getting oil and private police (!) contracts for the corporations that funded the last election campaign will not hurt either.



One example indicating the hidden intentions of the war is the training of the troops. The troops have been trained to kill and use overwhelming firepower, that's the only thing they know and that's what they do whenever a real or possible problem arises. Now that the official resistance is over, they don't seem to know how to act. They don't even seem to have learnt a single word in Arabic, despite months to prepare for the invasion. A liberation army that doesn't even speak the language? At every TV coverage I have seen of US troops acting at checkpoints, all commands are shouted in English. People who disobey commands run a high risk of getting shot by the troops who are afraid of suicide bombers. Thus the majority of the Iraqis who don't understand English should stay away if they want to survive.

	15-04-2003 03:15									#154
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All of you who think Baghdad is such a safe place might want to review what happened in Umm Qasr. I don't want US soldiers taking any foolish risks until we are sure that all the irregular forces in Baghdad are neutralized...

	15-04-2003 03:18									#155
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quote: This is even a worse cultural catastrophy than the allied bombing of Monte Cassino in WW2. But I am not surprised. I suppose Bush couldn't care less about some old pots he probably didn't even know of. He would probably order the bombing of the Pyramids if Usama or Saddam was hiding in one.

Jesus, this is ****ing ridiculous. You act as if it were Americans who looted this museum. You act like the Americans intended for this to happen. It's certainly a tragic event, but put the blame on the people who deserve it: the Iraqi looters who had no compunctions about destroying their own cultural and historical heritage.

	15-04-2003 03:29									#156
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Sumer is the ancestor of all Western civilization. What we lost is (b)eyond comprehension. Jeez, you'd think people on a site called Civilization would have a friggan clue!

It is indeed disturbing how many posters dismissed this disaster as the loss of 'some ancient artifacts'.

The objects in this museum were -from the viewpoint of cultural history- probably more valuable than the combined collection of ALL musea in the US.
This is worse than the sack of Rome! (410)

O Father Nanna, that city into ruins was made...
Its people, not potsherds, filled its sides;
Its walls were breached; the people groan.
In its lofty gates, where they were wont to promenade, dead bodies were lying about;
In its boulevards, where the feasts were celebrated, scattered they lay.
In all its streets, where where they were wont to promenade, dead bodies were lying about;
In its places, where the festivities of the land took place, the people lay in heaps...
Ur -its weak and its strong perished through hunger;
Mothers and fathers who did not leave their houses were overcome by fire;
The young lying on their mothers' laps, like fish were carried off by the waters;
In the city, the wife was abandoned, the son was abandoned, the possessions were scattered about.
O Nanna, Ur has been destroyed, its people have been dispersed!

(form the 'Lamentation over the destruction of Ur')

In 2004BC Ur was taken, sacked and burned down by the Elamites. This was the end of the oldest civilization of History.

	15-04-2003 03:36									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Jesus, this is ****ing ridiculous. You act as if it were Americans who looted this museum. You act like the Americans intended for this to happen. It's certainly a tragic event, but put the blame on the people who deserve it: the Iraqi looters who had no compunctions about destroying their own cultural and historical heritage.

You started the war. Now you deal with the aftermath.

	15-04-2003 03:40									#158
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quote: You started the war. Now you deal with the aftermath.

You've done nothing to show that America is at fault for the museum's looting; all the cliche pronouncements in the world won't change that.

	15-04-2003 03:51									#159
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The loss of irreplaceable artifacts out of the Historical Museum is indeed a big tragedy. The world will remember both the Iraqi criminals looting the museum, and the American troops letting it happen with their hands in the pockets. I feel really ashamed for those posters, who just shrug about this act of barbarianism or, even worse, try to justify it.

	15-04-2003 03:51									#160
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Drake :
In general terms, there are two entities responsible for crime :
- the criminals, of course
- the police, to some extent.
If a neighbourhood is riled with with crime, while the next one is calm, it can be a good idea to question the efficiency of the police in the crime-packed neighborhood. The inefficiency of the police isn't guilty of individual crimes, but it is guilty of the general trend.
In Baghdad, the only force that can do some policing right now is the US army. De facto, as the only organized force there, it is its duty to maintain order. Is the US army the culprit of the lootings ? No. Has the US army a responsibility in the general climate of anarchy ? Yes.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying "See ? The US should have posted 40 men there ! See ? SEE ?!", and I haven't done so in this thread. I actually find it pretty sad so many people use this catastrophe simply as another material to bash the US.

But you cannot dismiss some responsibility from the US army in that one. Not guilty, but definitely partly responsible.

	15-04-2003 03:53									#161
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I still don't see anyone adressing the main point

why should the US have expected the IRaquesse to loot (And vandalise) their own museums?

would the PArisians loot the Louvre?

would any sane people loot and destroy their own cultural heritage?

I don't see why the US should have expected and planned for this occurance

in any real life event there will be things (both good and bad) that will be unplanned for and accidential

this is just one of the very unfortunatly occurances

Jon Miller

	15-04-2003 03:54									#162
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quote: In general terms, there are two entities responsible for crime : - the criminals, of course - the police, to some extent.

Police can't/don't prevent crime. They capture criminals. Ask any cop. What certain people want is for the American military to become museum security guards.

	15-04-2003 04:00									#163
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I think you people are forgetting, this wasn't just any museum. Imagine if the main museum in Egypt was sacked, looted, and vandalized. The world's main repository of Egyptology would be lost forever. The Museum of Antiquities is for Sumer, Babylon, Assyria, the Umyyad Dynasty, etc. what the main museum of Egypt is for ancient Egypt . . . at least it was. This isn't some po-dunk little museum. This is the sacking of the Library of Alexandria all over again.

This episode is very unfortunate, and I wish it had been prevented. Not to minimize the problem, but I wonder if we have an objective sense of what has been lost. The Germans undertook extensive archeological digs in Iraq in the early part of the 20th century. It was my understanding that many of the "A" list items were shipped off to the Pergamum Museum in Berlin (eg, Gates of Babylon) much as many "A" list antiquities from other cultures wound up at the British Museum (eg. Elgin Marbles, Rosetta Stone), Louvre (Venus de Milo, Winged Victory of Samothrace, Mona Lisa), and National Museum in Taipei (anything the KMT could have carried out of China). I visited the Pergamum Museum in 1992 and it certainly had more mid-eastern antiquities than either the British Museum or the Louvre. Does anyone have a better sense of how Iraqi antiquities got divvied up over the years?

	15-04-2003 04:03									#164
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quote: In Baghdad, the only force that can do some policing right now is the US army. De facto, as the only organized force there, it is its duty to maintain order.

This is where we disagree. I think that the duty of the US Army is to complete the prosecution of the war. If they can do that and police Baghdad at the same time, then fine, I agree that they should. I'm not so sure that the US could police Baghdad at the time the museum was looted, however, at least in a way that was palatable to both American leaders and the Iraqi populace (ie. without having many American soldiers or Iraqi civilians killed).

quote: I actually find it pretty sad so many people use this catastrophe simply as another material to bash the US.

We're in agreement on this.

quote: But you cannot dismiss some responsibility from the US army in that one. Not guilty, but definitely partly responsible.

I disagree again. I certainly wish that US forces had been there to avert the looting, but I don't hold them responsible in any way for what happened because they weren't there. That would be like blaming the French for the genocide in Rwanda; not intervening in a tragedy doesn't make you responsible for it (although you should probably feel some guilt about it).

	15-04-2003 04:05									#165
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quote: why should the US have expected the IRaquesse to loot (And vandalise) their own museums?

This is one of my main questions as well. I would never have anticipated that the Iraqis would loot their own museum, so it would be rather hypocritical of me to criticize US planners for not thinking of it.

	15-04-2003 04:05									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller would the PArisians loot the Louvre?

Most Parisians wouldn't even have the idea, should anarchy fall upon Paris, but thiefs would see a wonderful opportunity to make money (some pieces of the Louvre can easily bring millions easily), and vandals or nihilists would see an opportunity to break some symbols.
So, you bet. Most parisians would hate these people dearly, but that would be too late.

	15-04-2003 04:13									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I actually find it pretty sad so many people use this catastrophe simply as another material to bash the US. We're in agreement on this.

It is urgent that we disagree again then I find it equally terrible that some people minimize the loss only because the US army technically could have averted it.

quote: That would be like blaming the French for the genocide in Rwanda; not intervening in a tragedy doesn't make you responsible for it (although you should probably feel some guilt about it).

The French, or rather the French army, had a responsibility in Rwanda, far bigger than the US' responsibility in the museum's looting. The French troops were sent there to bring back order, but they were overwhelmed and let the genocide continue, without doing anything significant. Actually, the French action in Ivory Coast could be seen as the willingness not to let the same tragedy happen as in Rwanda.
I'm not saying France was completely responsible for the Rwandan genocide, but a part of the burden goes to it. Same for the US army and the museum. I think the real people who have to get punished are the looters, but it is wrong to completely whitewash the army.

	15-04-2003 04:18									#168
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honestly I think the museum is a tragedy too. but what I see is everyone jumping like rabid wombats onto its carcass in an attempt to smeer the US as much as humanly possible. and I feel a desire to defend against that.

its a harsh reality that I am towards the side that thinks this is a tragedy but that because the ppl against it are so intensely radical that I feel compelled to not be ascossiated w/ them.

	15-04-2003 04:42									#169
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Same for the US army and the museum.

Powell acknowledged as much today. We're going to do what we can. Losing the library is a real shame too.

Reconstructing and reclaiming the museum would seem to be a good task for the French and Italians to work on. Because of things like this, I wish the French would take a more constructive attitude overall.

	15-04-2003 04:48									#170
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Reconstructing and reclaiming the museum would seem to be a good task for the French and Italians to work on. Because of things like this, I wish the French would take a more constructive attitude overall.

This is a great idea. I think I'll email it to my Foreign ministry. Not that it'll had any impact, but still....

Edit : gah, I've just realised I've agreed with Powell
Editedit : sent. I assume I won't get any answer.

	15-04-2003 05:46									#171
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The USA didn't expect it because they figured that they'd only have to "decapitate" the evil regime and the rest of the infrastructure would remain fully active and in reasonably working condition. Errr...nope.

It now seems that a good portion of it is either dysfunctional or temporarily disabled, hence the vulnerability of such invaluable places/artifacts to looters.

	15-04-2003 05:54									#172
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Well, we know where the artifacts are now. We should be careful about allowing that material out of Baghdad. Also, the more valuable items were taken from locked safes. The curator believes the safes were opened by someone with the combination.

We should be able to track some of this down. Perhaps this is a job for the FBI, or perhaps even the British, French and German police.

	15-04-2003 05:54									#173
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Indiana Jones, where are you?

	15-04-2003 06:04									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Ned We should be able to track some of this down. Perhaps this is a job for the FBI, or perhaps even the British, French and German police.

The way I see it, most national polices will look for the artefacts into their territory, and the international chase will be asked to an ad-hoc corps, if any international coordination is done. Sad, really

	15-04-2003 13:14									#175
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First of all, the occupying force has to police the taken teritorry. Geneva convention, I think.

Secondly, I can clearly understand that a country with no history doesnt see this as a "tragedy". Heck, if Mr. Bush keeps up with the good work, maybe the USA will become the cradle of humanity, and there will be no proof to say otherwise.

Oh, yes, this is a nice little troll from a person who is shocked by the way the "liberators" are treating the people of Iraq.

"We have removed your corrupt government, so now you can govern yourselves, you backward cavern people".

	15-04-2003 14:41									#176
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Why?
http://argument.independent.co.uk/c...sp?story=397350

	15-04-2003 15:12									#177
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One thing that puzzles me is how 170 000 objects made of stone or clay could have been carried away. Imagine the manpower needed to do that in 1-2 days.

I will not be surprised if the loot are for sale in marketplaces all around Baghdad allready.

	15-04-2003 17:28									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Personally speaking, I'd be appalled if the Coalition forces were diverted to defend a museum while hospitals were being looted of supplies. I'd have let the musuem be ransacked entirely if it prevent a few deaths from gangrene.

There is a great difference between the life of some unfortunate people and the collective memory of entire nations and civilizations.

How difficult can be to dispatch a couple of soldiers in each corner, a total of 8 people to protect what dozens of conquerors in a period of thousands of years didn't destroy and for which huge sums of money and effort have been spent to excavate them, study them and collect them in a unified place.

	15-04-2003 17:35									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller why should the US have suspected that they would go after a museum? I mean it is a museum, what is the point of smashing it up? but they did so Jon Miller

Perhaps because a sort period of anarchy always follows after a regime is fallen by force?

Perhaps looting in great extance always happen in periods of anarchy?

And what more valuable to loot than ancient artifacts?

Or perhaps because the curators of the museum asked for American assistant even before they entered Baghdad and the Iraqi regime collapses. Or at list that is what the curators claim.

	15-04-2003 17:42									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Keygen There is a great difference between the life of some unfortunate people and the collective memory of entire nations and civilizations.

Indeed. I for one vote for protecting people over old shards of pottery.

Oh, and I think I just heard Al Jazeera report that some really cute kittens and adorable puppies were lost because the US was protecting a marketplace instead of the animal shelter. Oh the shame!