14-04-2003 03:52									#91
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This cat rules, Sava

	14-04-2003 03:58									#92
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That's your cat? That cat's too good for you! Give it up.

	14-04-2003 04:44									#94
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quote: I pledge alleigance to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, not the government or some stupid flag.

The Constitution set up the government. The government IS the embodiment of the Constitution.

quote: Sloww, just a question, and I'm not rippin' you or anything, but are you even capable of arguing using just logic and reason, without letting emotion taint your arguments? Your statements will carry a hell of a lot more weight if made without anger, disgust, derision, etc. Cold, unemotional logic, brother... it works.

The only problem with logic is that it IGNORES emotion, which can be a much more powerful force (and is what makes us human).

	14-04-2003 04:47									#95
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There's nothing wrong with passion.

	14-04-2003 04:52									#96
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

The Constitution set up the government. The government IS the embodiment of the Constitution.

[/q]

Or it is the (mis)interpreter of the constitution

	14-04-2003 04:53									#97
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand There's nothing wrong with passion.

apart from being ripe for manipulation...

	14-04-2003 04:59									#98
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Doubtful.
Attempts to manupulate me by the best have failed.

	14-04-2003 05:15									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The only problem with logic is that it IGNORES emotion, which can be a much more powerful force (and is what makes us human).

Without logic, there is no emotion. Likewise, without emotion, there is no logic

	14-04-2003 05:31									#100
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Patriotism is like loving your family (except it is a very big family). I would not want to be neighbors with someone who was not a patriot as he apparently cannot see beyond his own self interest. America was founded on a community of individuals. We only have individual rights as we are a part of the overall community. Patriotism does not have to be endless flag waving etc.. Loving your neighbor is the esence of patriotism. Flag waving without the love is rather sickening I think.

	14-04-2003 05:36									#101
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Flag-waving without love only makes for a sore arm.


Well-said, Lincoln.

	14-04-2003 07:29									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I pledge alleigance to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, not the government or some stupid flag. The Constitution set up the government. The government IS the embodiment of the Constitution.

Embodiment?? The Constitution was written to control the government. And the biggest threat to constitutional freedoms has always been, currently is, and always will be--the government.

	14-04-2003 08:48									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Embodiment?? The Constitution was written to control the government. And the biggest threat to constitutional freedoms has always been, currently is, and always will be--the government.

no it wasnt... the constitution is the blue print of the government. It defines its structure and function. The government can of course modify it, but that is just like someone remodling their house and changing the blue prints accordingly.

	14-04-2003 08:54									#104
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Im a patriot btw... the government's rights and wrongs in hindsight are relative to perspective. Some actions judged as amoral by some may not be by others. One thing i do know is that our gov, under the scrutinous eye of the public, does an ok job protecting me and my rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

Its far from perfect, but its much better than most...

	14-04-2003 09:05									#105
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Shame on you, SlowwHand. Don't you know that "patriotism" is just a patriarchal code-word for militaristic capitalist nationalism?

	14-04-2003 09:08									#106
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Guynemer:

quote: In response to this rather inane thread, I will refer Sloww to my signature, and let him decide whether or not I fit his definition of "patriot."

Fantastic signature! I just realised that I have the same quote in mine; I'll have to disappear it post-haste.


Anyway: Paine is God!

I think that makes me a non-patriot. Oh, well...

	14-04-2003 11:40									#107
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I am a patriot, and a damn proud one.

why?

1) I don't believe the BS my government tells me until I can prove it. In the meantime I'll listen to both sides of the story and forge my own opinion.

2) I wish the best for my country and its people above all others, but not when it committs or intends to commit a grave injustice

3) I tolerate differences in opinion, after all a balance is what makes a country strong

4) I realize love for one's country doesn't have to necessarily be coupled with hate towards another


I guess under Slowwhands definition I'm just another pansy commie from south of the border. I don't care. Btw guys, don't lean too far right or you'll fall and hit your head.

	14-04-2003 12:48									#108
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I'm a patriot. I own no flag other than one of those pins for a jacket or lapel. It was on sale... I have no framed constitution, though that sounds like a great idea. I do have a framed sketch print of a bald eagle standing on a branch, simple black on white. It's got dignity, and those who have dignity are free, which is what my country stands for when it is at its best, like now.

I also served my country in the army. I was a border guard on the border of east and west Germany. We were stationed in Bamburg, and Hof, on the border. I got to see an evil Soviet empire at its worst, where it murdered its citizens for seeking a better life by leaving. It was a cruel empire whose overseers are a cruel people. Our job was to stop the westward advance of the Russians. This we Americans did, over many years, through hard times and good. We held them and they fell under their own weight. The gate to the east is once again in the west. The United States was the backbone of that allied effort, and that made me see that what we do can be very good, and right. I became a patriot.

	14-04-2003 13:35									#109
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One has to be wary of the fine line between nationalism and patriotism. Germany is a great example.

Bismarck unites Germany and defeats France (1871?) Germany on top of Europe. 1914, Germany goes to war blindly under a ruthless monarch. 1939: Germany tricks the world through lies and deceipt into forming a European Empire.

After WWII, Germany splits and the East falls into brutal Soviet hands. Since then, Germans have been pro-community, supporting the UN and EU with all it's heart. German policy is the exact opposite of American individualism, and very few Germans will fly their flag for the fear of what happened in the past. Germany shows it takes a LOT to stamp out patriotism, whether mindless flag waiving or true love. Germany also shows how dangerous patriotism can be. Look at Bush after September 11th. All of his policies (Iraq, Afghanistan and even the restriction of free trade) have damaged foreign trade, or justified for the good of America. Support for Bush's policies has been high, and one has to wonder if American patriotism is something to do with it...

	14-04-2003 13:39									#110
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quote: 1939: Germany tricks the world through lies and deceipt into forming a European Empire.

ahh, the early days of the EU.

	14-04-2003 13:53									#111
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Frozzy, don't worry, we're not a pack of goose stepping nazis. Someday a liberal will be president again and all the lefties can carp about a new new age until I puke.

	14-04-2003 14:07									#112
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That cat was ****in ugly.

	14-04-2003 14:33									#113
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Lincoln, you haven't met my neighbors. She's in he mid 30s and has screaming, stomping fits like a 5 yr old brat. He, he puts up with it. She brags about breast feeding their overprotected boy until he was friggin 6 and I guess refused the ***. He, he put up with it...and HE talks WAY too much.

It's frigging wierd over there. Of course, they're from California...

(Sorry Zk, Sten and Derek)

	14-04-2003 14:35									#114
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In reference to the first post in the thread:

I like my country, but I certainly don't 'love' it.
'Love' is a strong word. I love my family, my close friends and my girlfriend - if the interests of my country ever directly contradicted the interests of those people then my country could go **** itself, to be honest.

So no, I'm not a patriot, although I think my personal morals and beliefs broadly match those of the people in power in this country. They're not perfect, but neither am I: I've got no beef with them (yet ).

	14-04-2003 15:22									#115
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests

I can only agree to what most of the posters before said.
this is not a proper description at all or at least it needs to be elaborated.

my country´s authority has once been the nazi regime, my countries interests have once been world dominance and death or slavery to all non arish people and all people who don´t agree with their regime. does a german have to agree with the holocaust, the destruction of hundred of cities, massacres and the death of more than 60 million people to call himself a patriot? I hope not, because if so, I can hardly call myself a patriot.

nevertheless I love my country, I respect my constitution (which I think is the best contitution of all constitutions in the world) and I accept any authority based on my country´s constitution. I´m concerned by almost anything my country does in past, presence and future and I feel responsible for it.
so after all I would call myself a patriot.

	14-04-2003 15:27									#116
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lancer...sometimes

	14-04-2003 18:08									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo **** the state.

Duly noted in your immigration file.

	14-04-2003 18:13									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I guess under Slowwhands definition I'm just another pansy commie from south of the border. I don't care.

You are what you are.
As long as you're comfortable staying rooted in the flower bed, enjoy.


FrustratedPoet, if you're in a free land, it sure makes safety of your family more likely.

	14-04-2003 20:43									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor What does "splitting hairs" mean ?

It has probably been answered already but : couper les cheveux en quatre.

	14-04-2003 20:53									#120
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or

diilizete ton konopa

(diluting the mosquito)

(now where the hell that phrase came from...? )