14-04-2003 11:55									#1
	Turn 95, 670 BC Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Status:

Check this and every turn to see if we lost some war unweariness due to the killing of troops within cultural borders and therefore must readjust the lux slider.

Urgent questions:

- The Pyramid Replacement Poll
- Do we send our galleys up the east coast or the west coast?

Military:
- Upgrade our three spears to pikes.

Economy:

-WDesert Settler builds city. (name suggestions?)

-Worker Sandstorm move 6.
-Worker 1 of Hurricane move 88.
-Worker Cyclone move 8 and mine.
-Workers(3) 1 of EotS add to EotS.
-Worker 2 of EotS add to EotS.
-Worker 11 of EotS move 3 and mine.

-Workers(2) 9 of Arashi move 2 to road.

-EotS max food with at least 10 shields production if going with a Med Inf, or at least 20 shields production if going for a WC (recommended).

- Rejuggle tiles in the south so Cyclone can crank out one-turn workers. Try to keep Typhoon at ten shields per turn.
- Check the military situation and possibly change builds in Arashi and/or Monsoon (e.g. walls aren't urgent if an extra WC would help make sure no Voxian units live to attack the city).

Diplomacy:

- ND will pay 200 gold when feudalism is offered.(alva):

Thread library:
- Standing orders for workers (Orders last revised April 5.)

Last edited by Aeson on 15-04-2003 at 06:49

	14-04-2003 14:58									#2
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We almost certainly want EotS to go for a WC this turn and start pikes next turn because getting enough pikes quickly enough is going to be our big problem cutting off Vox's iron.

	14-04-2003 17:25									#3
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If EotS is to build a WC, than I'd rather see Tempest build a MedInf.

And Walls in Arashi are a waste... Vox won;t get that far, and if they do we will have ample time to get Walls up. Build a MedInf or Pikeman there instead.

I like the Galley concepts, but that is for later; immediate concerns are defending against the possible Immortal rush, and taking the attack to D-ville. Both of those are all about the Spinebreakers, and thus MedInf and Pikes.

We need coverage on the hill 1 of Monsoon... the reg Warrior?

And I STILL do not understand why we couldn;t have at least two Cats.

I say "Go West, young man" re the Galleys; the mountain and two jungle tiles at the road branch are begging for a visit.

	14-04-2003 17:30									#4
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Please move 7 with the vet WC that we left on the coast 22 of the immortal that ran off to the mountains. This is to see where the immortal went, which could be either into the jungle (we won't see him then), or onto the open grassland.
If he moves into the open grassland, we can strike at him and possibly win. The chances are very close to 50:50, and we're risking a 20 shields unit, whereas Vox might lose a 30 shields unit. Plus, there's a chance that we'd retreat if we don't kill the immortal, so it's worth it.
If we don't see him, then I suggest that we move another tile 7, rather than return to the coast. In this case, the immortal must have moved 7, into the jungle. Vox won't be able to see our WC, and thinking that we've given up chasing, they might go 4 into the open next turn. That would give us a chance to check if they have on turn 96, by moving 8, and to strike at the immortal if we find it in the open rather than in the jungle.

What we'd achieve by this: chances to take out Vox's immortal at a lower risk to us than to Vox, at nearly 50% chances of success and with 58% of retreat if we don't succeed. The chances that this operation would end at a total failure are 23.184% (losing a battle to the immortal and not retreating, thus losing the vet WC), and even then we'd probably inflict some damage on the immortal, delaying its arrival to the main front by one turn.

	14-04-2003 17:52									#5
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I will be gone proably all day, at least for the next 14 hours, so this will may be (yeah right, 24 hour turns, we will play wednesday) the only time I can weigh in on this turn.

That said:

I think we should move the galley pair around the east coast. Vox still has that galley, and its almost had enough time to make a return trip to where moe met his fate. we can't let that hapopen, as all of our forces are in the west.

Hard to give other opinions until we've seen vox's move.

I think we are tremendously undervaluing Vox's skill and strenght, and as such I view Sun Tzu as a huge gamble. Frankly we need the 4 or whatever units that hurricane can pump out. Doom Doom Doom Dooooooom. I had to get that out of my system, thank you.

	14-04-2003 18:38									#6
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7 units in 7 turns, asleep... that's the difference between the Lighthouse and Sun Tzu. That's substantial... we have to be sure if we want to lose that.

Further, I just realised: Now that we miss the pyramids, we should definately keep Cyclone on 1 turn workers for as long as possible, maybe even until all our cities are filled with pop. (can that be done without GA?)We gain most by a large population, and many of our cities aren't better then average food-wise. Plus, when rushpopping EotS, we will lose more of our workers, and I'm pretty sure we are going to want to have those mountains roaded, and that jungle removed asap.

DeepO

	14-04-2003 21:53									#7
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We have two vet swords and one regular sword in the Hurricane area, and plenty of pike production in the area to keep Vox from attacking from the mountains. We can also get WCs into the area quickly if Vox's attack force is more than two or three units. So as long as we keep a lookout for Voxian galleys, I think we're okay. Better than okay, in fact, if Vox splits its forces without having adequate coordination between them.

Regarding moving the WC 7-7, if our WC attacks and retreats, it's dead on Vox's counterattack. We could also find an immortal waiting for us at the end of our journey. That said, if we're prepared to position two or three additional WCs to deal with an immortal if one goes after our WC, the 7-7 move could still be a good one.

Arashi will only end up building walls if significant additional Voxian forces show up. Otherwise, I think a WC would be a better bet than a medieval infantry because it gives us more flexibility to start walls if a huge Voxian force shows up in another turn or two. We won't be ready to launch an offensive for quite some time unless and until we kill quite a few Voxians in an attempt by them to invade us.

	14-04-2003 22:03									#8
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I agree Nathan. Can we get one of the vet WCs on the road to go 8-9 and provide backup?
I think that this could be a great way to kill an immortal before it can reach mountains.

	14-04-2003 22:28									#9
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I think if we move 7 with that WC (this turn and next) we will see the second stack from Vox. The units in GoW's screenshot had to go somewhere. My guess is that they went to the E and then will move due S to use the road. That would put them on about the same ETA to get to the tile

Keeping the WC out on the coast is most valuable for us. A move 7 then 3 (or 6 if no unit is on the mountain) will keep us informed of if that galley is heading back to drop off troops near Hurricane. We will be able to take 2 of the 3 swords from Hurricane and rely on EotS and Hurricane spitting out enough troops fast enough to defend it.

We have 2 turns warning with that WC there, and that would give us 3 Pikes/Horses in Hurricane. More than enough to stop any 1 galley landing force. Each turn we get 2 more pikes there if necessary, and even if they get extraordinarily lucky a turn or two in a row, they eventually run out of HP's. The sword we leave behind is just to hold onto the Iron until we can get a Pike there.

	14-04-2003 23:47									#10
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We need more MedInf... or is no one interested in attacking wounded units on mountain and jungle tiles?

	15-04-2003 00:10									#11
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As long as they stay on Mountain and Jungle Tiles... let them attack us (4 vs 4 isn't as good odds as 6 vs 4). The longer we draw this out the bigger our advantage becomes. All we really have to do is force their stacks off the Mountains (which Pikes do the best) for our WC's.

As we start the offensive, Tempest should be at 20 shields per turn, making for the best Med Inf producer.

	15-04-2003 00:16									#12
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When we start the offensive, I don't want our shields going to med inf. KNIGHTS!

-Arrian

	15-04-2003 00:39									#13
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Hopefully it starts before we even get to Chivalry though.

I think our biggest concern for the offensive should be efficiency. Knights are good to have around (and we will have several through upgrades), but shield for shield they cost more than what they do to produce. We have to worry about gaining ground on Vox (at that point it shouldn't be too hard), and not losing ground on all the other civs.

I think our best offensive stack is going to be 4-5 Pikes, 4-5 Cats, Whatever Med Infantry we have, and a few Knights. A couple Settlers/Workers too. All the un-upgraded Horses and WC's along to take out the wounded, and garrison cities.

We shouldn't try to blitz Vox with fast movers. We probably take them out faster that way, but it's far more costly to us. Let them attack Pikes defended with Cats, and get countered by Knights/Med Inf/Horses/WC's as we slowly march N.

	15-04-2003 01:14									#14
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quote: I think our best offensive stack is going to be 4-5 Pikes, 4-5 Cats, Whatever Med Infantry we have, and a few Knights. A couple Settlers/Workers too. All the un-upgraded Horses and WC's along to take out the wounded, and garrison cities.

I'm thinking along the same lines. I wasn't advocating a "fastmover blitz" attack, like what I would do to the AI. I want to take things slow, steady & safe. Still, I prefer spending our production/upgrade cash on Knights, because they are simply much better units than med inf (mobility, retreat, upgrade to cav).

-Arrian

	15-04-2003 01:39									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

What about our plans to take Vox's Iron with a sneak-attack?
Do we have enough resources to do that, while making sure we're safe?

	15-04-2003 01:45									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson -WDesert Settler builds city. (name suggestions?)

Whirlwind, Dust Devil, Cats and Dogs, Downpour, Waterspout, Twister, El Nino, Torrent....

Mss

	15-04-2003 01:45									#17
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My vote is for up the W coast. That would land us at the Iron crossroads in 8 turns, and we'd reduce the timeframe for Vox moving troops unobserved.

	15-04-2003 01:56									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson My vote is for up the W coast. That would land us at the Iron crossroads in 8 turns, and we'd reduce the timeframe for Vox moving troops unobserved.

What about the eastern galley? What if they use it to land troops at hurricane? We need to destroy that galley and secure our coasts. Plus, Vox will sell a map of our coasts to others. Plus, we have what, one uniit in the entire south protecting three cities? That galley has to be targeted.

	15-04-2003 01:57									#19
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I also think we should send one of our Vet Swords from Hurricane to Sandstorm. (barring our WC seeing a Galley along the coast)

	15-04-2003 02:06									#20
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The eastern Galley is fine, we can see it coming with our WC and get enough Pikes to Hurricane in time that it is no threat. If Vox wants to split up their forces, it's actually the best thing they can be doing. Their only real shot at this is to overwhelm us at a single point, hurting as much production power as they possibly can. they can't even come close to matching our production (even with Hurricane on a Wonder).

We are producing units every other turn in Bolderberg and Tornado. Also will be producing a unit a turn in EotS. We have 2 turns warning of a Galley to Hurricane. That means we can have 5, and possibly 6 units in Hurricane before they can attack (we have 3 there already). At least one of those being a Pike. Then A pike every turn can get there.

This defense stands up for the entire E and S coast. In the case of WC's and Horses, our troops can move faster than the Galley due to roads. Pikes/Swords/Med Inf travel just as fast except for if they cross the river. The farther S they go, the more troops they face when they land. Also Tornado's next Galley can meet their's if they try to leapfrog Hurricane and continue S.

As for mapping out our coasts, we already agreed to let GoW do that. So everyone will see the shape of our land in short enough order. We may even want to start considering selling our maps with other teams.

	15-04-2003 02:11									#21
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Wouldn't it be better to put the sucker to the bottom and be done with it? Then we don't have to maintain forces there. Actually, it's better than that, bacause then Vox has to maintain significant forces on their colony if we rule the sea.

Sounds like a very good use of our navy.

	15-04-2003 02:15									#22
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Wouldn't it be better to put the sucker to the bottom and be done with it? Then we don't have to maintain forces there. Actually, it's better than that, bacause then Vox has to maintain significant forces on their colony if we rule the sea. Sounds like a very good use of our navy.

that's what I'm saying. Better than moving them to monsoon and drydocking there until we smash the offensive.

And the turn differential is pretty slim between the two paths, especially if you add the lighhouse.

Security, thats all I ask. We have played this game too loosely to this point. We know there is a threat and we should eliminate it. galleys are far too expensive for them to build at this point, so sinking the one we've seen should end the naval threat.

	15-04-2003 02:16									#23
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Edited: nevermind, not the time to discuss this.

	15-04-2003 02:17									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Selling our maps is a good idea, IMHO. If they can already see our coast, why not let them see the whole thing? (if there's money in it, of course) I'd offer it for 110 gold or 7 gpt. We gotta make sure that we can sell this to all (or most) teams at once, though. What do you think?

they can see the coasst, but they can't see the interior. As much as we can hide, we should.

	15-04-2003 02:34									#25
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Here's an original thought: let's swallow our pride and offer peace to Vox. If they accept, so be it, we ride our GA to ever greater dominance and destroy them after 20 turns. If they refuse, we lose nothing. I think they have a good idea of how strong we can be, and maybe they're hoping for a way out.


Dominae

	15-04-2003 02:41									#26
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quote: Better than moving them to monsoon and drydocking there until we smash the offensive.

The timing is about right. We should have at least 2 Pikes to spare at that point in time, probably more. The Lighthouse helps us going W too.

Galley warfare is nowhere near a sure thing either. We could end up with 2 sunk Galleys, and it's 50:50 that we lose one. That would delay us taking out Vox's Iron for 3 more turns on top of the added time to get there.

	15-04-2003 02:43									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson The timing is about right. We should have at least 2 Pikes to spare at that point in time, probably more. The Lighthouse helps us going W too. Galley warfare is nowhere near a sure thing either. We could end up with 2 sunk Galleys, and it's 50:50 that we lose one. That would delay us taking out Vox's Iron for 3 more turns on top of the added time to get there.

both good points. we could lose both the galleys in the attack on one. its a risk I would take. Besides, do we know that the west is galley free? we could lose both there as well

	15-04-2003 02:50									#28
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Offer them what?

Maybe it would be good to speak with them and find out just what got into their pretty little heads. Perhaps they can be deflected if we can find the weakness in RP's web. I strongly urge though, that we not go off willy-nilly to talk with them as individuals.

One of us should be charged with contact with them.

Nathan is on good terms with them. I am on very good terms with Jon Miller. I would do it if no better candidate comes forward.

I further urge that we not be too chatty. I apologise to the diplomats, but I feel our approach to many of the other teams has been too... naive. We have approached all as friends off the bat. Well, we now know that not to be the case.

Last edited by notyoueither on 15-04-2003 at 03:37

	15-04-2003 03:11									#29
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I agree on the naivity, but we're learning...

I also agree on setting up some diplomatic dialogue, to find out their reasons.

Galleys: we haven't seen Vox's galley with units, but how sure are we that there isn't a second galley waiting to meet up with it? I'm not saying I think that to be true, but also this should be a possibility to consider.

Further, we should keep enough forces to keep GoW from invading, if their galley is entering our waters. Plus, it wouldn't surprise me if, some 5-10 turns from now, we suddenly see a rather large RP invasion off our shores, wanting to take advantage of the situation. They will be informed of the emptiness of our cities by GoW.

DeepO

	15-04-2003 03:30									#30
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If Vox is ferrying Immortals down their coast (E or W)... they probably aren't going to attack a stack of 2 Galleys, and we don't have to attack them either. I'd much rather let them get 2 Immortals landed somewhere near Hurricane (best to keep them from landing on the Mountains of course) and us land 2-4 Pikes on their Iron crossroad, than to risk naval warfare.