17-04-2003 19:37									#91
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Weren't we supposed to get 200 gold from someone?

	17-04-2003 19:40									#92
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From ND... not sure when that kicks in? He said he accepted the deal, but it wasn't ratified yet. If we do get that it changes a lot.

	17-04-2003 19:45									#93
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balls no cash from ND? Great time to screw up the turn ND.

	17-04-2003 19:46									#94
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ND accepted our offer but did not offer anything back. Either they goofed or they tried to pull a fast one hoping we'd goof. In any case, we don't have the extra gold we had hoped to get from them this turn. Diplomats?

	17-04-2003 19:48									#95
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I don't think we should abandon A9, Aeson. I don't like what that does to us. They could park a few spearmen & immortals up there and make it VERY painful for us to knock them off - while seriously hampering our W/E mobility.

THEY SHALL NOT PASS!

-Arrian

	17-04-2003 19:55									#96
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Uh, that's not a screw-up by ND.

* Theseus Theseus' paranoia goes into high gear...

Let's hold off on giving up A9 for the moment. While I like the idea of hiding troops in Arashi, it would mean giving up too good of a defensive post.

	17-04-2003 19:56									#97
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If we had that 4th Pike I'd agree with you Arrian, but we run about a 10% risk of losing the battle severely (losing most to all of our troops, with them only losing 3-4) with what we can put there this turn. In Arashi we have much better odds, will have more defense, will get a free shot with a Catapult, and Vox also has to 'retreat' their injured units after the fight to heal.

	17-04-2003 19:57									#98
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Arashi gives the same defensive bonus as a mountain by the way (hill, wall). Only difference is that all our troops will be fortified.

	17-04-2003 19:58									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Arashi gives the same defensive bonus as a mountain by the way (hill, wall). Only difference is that all our troops will be fortified.

and theres always the off chance that Vox won't realize its on a hill. yeah right, I know, but it does happen.

	17-04-2003 20:02									#100
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BTW, how is it possible that we got the turn midway through production?

	17-04-2003 20:08									#101
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Arashi finished it's city walls. That gives us the popup so we can enter the city view and switch production in all towns later in the queue than Arashi by using the arrow keys. I think that means Monsoon, Sandstorm, OB, WW, and Sufu(?).

If we switch the preferences now, they will be saved with what we use... if no one changes it back themselves it will get back to us in a position where we can short rush just about everything. I can't see how anyone can stand to play this game without the prompt for units on. Is it legal for us to switch any of the game preferences?

	17-04-2003 20:10									#102
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The big question is whether, if we make our stand in Arashi, Vox will attack Arashi or go around it. If Vox fortifies about three units on A9 and sends the rest around to our east, we'll have a hard time because the only way we can attack them directly is across a river. We'd probably need to swing our WCs around to the east side of the river south of Arashi once they occupy A9, giving up our ability to attack with them the following turn if Vox heads west instead of east. Otherwise, we'd lose the ability to attack, heal, and attack again before Vox can hit EotS or Hurricane.

On the other hand, Vox has highly favorable odds attacking A9 because they'll outnumber us by a significant margin and be able to do a lot of their fighting against wounded units. If Vox does attack Arashi, the combination of an extra pike, two extra regular medieval infantry, and having most of our units fortified would be an enormous advantage. So the big question is, which do we expect Vox to do?

	17-04-2003 20:13									#103
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Are we decided on option (1) for our gold, rushing a cat and upgrading two regular warriors to medieval infantry?

	17-04-2003 20:16									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Arashi finished it's city walls. That gives us the popup so we can enter the city view and switch production in all towns later in the queue than Arashi by using the arrow keys. I think that means Monsoon, Sandstorm, OB, WW, and Sufu(?). If we switch the preferences now, they will be saved with what we use... if no one changes it back themselves it will get back to us in a position where we can short rush just about everything. I can't see how anyone can stand to play this game without the prompt for units on. Is it legal for us to switch any of the game preferences?

Oh, I think I understand now...

So production started, and Arashi was the first town to trigger a pop-up?

If we changed the preferences for units, we would get a pop-up from EotS at the beginning of each turn?

I say do it. It's huge.

If we are going to get grief for being the best, we might as take advantage of our vastly superior skills!!!

(I'm being facetious , but I do think we should change the preference)

	17-04-2003 20:27									#105
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Yes, we give up a lot of movement potential by giving up Arashi 9. If they are going to drop down into the flood plains, it means they are going to EotS and/or Hurricane. Either target should give us enough time to leapfrog their stack by using our roads (even with our slow movers, we get to both first).

If we send our 3 workers in Arashi's area to Arashi 2, we get the road up there in 3 turns. That would be in time that we could even beat Vox to Sandstorm 6 (Sandstorm is lost in this scenario) with our Pikes/Swords/Med Inf... while getting 2 turns of shots on their stack with WC's (3 with some). All without leaving Arashi until their stack moves away from it.

	17-04-2003 20:28									#106
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quote: If Vox fortifies about three units on A9 and sends the rest around to our east, we'll have a hard time because the only way we can attack them directly is across a river

That's EXACTLY what I'm worried about. Aeson, that's why I want to hold A9.

But I know that holding off 11 Immortals ain't gonna be easy. If I *knew* they'd come for Arashi, I'd agree wholeheartedly that we should hole up there.

But I don't know that. In fact, them marching right up to Arashi and attacking would be an EXTREMELY stupid thing to do. I would stick 2 spearmen & an immortal or two up on A9 and move along to a juicier, softer target.

-Arrian

	17-04-2003 20:29									#107
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Okay, I went ahead and played it rushing the cat but not doing anything otherwise before the movement part of the turn starts.

There are eleven immortals (seven vet and four regular) on Arashi 8 with a regular spearman, and and one vet and two regulars with a regular spearman at Arashi 8-7.

Forces around Hurricane are as expected: two immortals closer to us and one a tile farther away.

	17-04-2003 20:39									#108
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I thought they would get that 3rd into the stack with the other 2 near Hurricane. This is a very big break for us, the odds that they can just plow through Hurricane 8 drop significantly, and even i nthe best case they will only have 2 Immortals to attack instead of 3.

They must be going for more troops... we should get their next drop with our 2 galleys if they try for a drop near Hurricane eh?

-------------------

As for Arashi 9, we can still beat Vox wherever they are going even without it. The extra movement would be nice, but it doesn't matter if we lose all our units trying to keep that route open. If they do leave a couple units behind their main stack... GREAT! we want to split them up as much as possible.

And they may just try to hit Arashi. They know we have 2 Pikes (they saw 2 spears), 2 Swords, and a couple of Warriors (they can figure out we'll upgrade them). They don't know where they are, and our 'retreat' from Arashi 9 might make them think we are weak.

If we try to hold Arashi 9 this turn, we are risking more than by pulling back. If it pays off, it pays off huge. If it doesn't, it hurts us almost just as bad as a victory would help.

The longer this plays out, the better our chances when the showdown comes. There is a chance that they beat us badly enough at Arashi 9 that we can't hold Arashi and Tempest/Monsoon will probably fall too. The odds of that happening in a battle in Arashi are significantly less.

	17-04-2003 20:41									#109
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Forces around Hurricane are as expected: two immortals closer to us and one a tile farther away.

Not as I expected... as far as I'm concerned, they seriously f*cked up not consolidating all three (at a minimum) or keeping the one on the galley as a threat to our iron.

Hurricane is now much more defensible.

	17-04-2003 20:49									#110
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I think we should pull back to Arashi

They have to come off that mountain sometime.

The problem is, they can be on the mountain between tempest and arashi and we would have to split the defenders. But that would give us 3 more turns of prep, and they can't see there is a mountian there yet, i think.


plus the cats can get in shots the turn before the attack on the city.

I don't know, tough decision.


Hey, we've got a GoW galley 88 of monsoon

	17-04-2003 20:55									#111
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It may be a mistake, but if they were able to load 2 more Immortals by moving back up the coast instead of all the way down it could hurt us a lot.

I'd be in favor of keeping our Desert of Tears WC out there just galley spotting and watching Immortals... If they have their Galley 8888 of Hurricane that means they moved 2, dropped, moved 8, picked up more Immortals, and then moved 2. That would mean we are facing 4 Immortals in the first group, and we'd have to seriously alter our plans.

So my vote is to move 9 with that WC, see the coast and the N mountain, and if it's clear to the N move 9 again. If we run into troops we could attack or move back depending on the situation.

Our Galleys move 8's for the next two turns, and hopefully the WC spots Vox's galley so we can set it up that they don't see us and drop off their Immortals before we can attack.

	17-04-2003 20:55									#112
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Aeson, your tests were with us having three vet pikes, two regular swords, and a vet sword, right? Any idea how it would affect things if we have an extra regular sword up there? With Harry a tile farther away from Hurricane than expected, we have a serious option of having Zonk join the A9 defense instead of helping out around Hurricane.

The thought occurs to me that fighting Vox farther south has one enormous advantage over fighting Vox around Arashi 9. If Vox attacks Arashi 9, no more than one wounded Voxian unit will be inside our cultural borders. That means in three turns or less, wounded Voxians can be on their way to attack us again. In contrast, if we do our fighting farther south, wounded Voxians will have to spend time retreating before they can even start healing.

One other note: if we make our stand in Arashi, we can upgrade our remaining swords to medieval infantry next turn. Odds for medieval infantry attacking an unfortified enemy on flood plains, even across a river, should be better than odds trying to defend on a mountain. Right? Then again, Vox would have the option of moving 6 instead of 3 from Arashi-9. That would free us from having to worry much about defending our West, but it would put them out of range of attacking medieval infantry for the moment.

Something I just noticed: we have five workers in a position where they could move onto Arashi 2 or Arashi 3 this turn and road it next turn. With either of those tiles roaded, if Vox does move 6 from Arashi 9, our medieval infantry could get in position to intercept; they'd do it a turn later but without the penalty of a cross-river attack.

	17-04-2003 20:57									#113
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The GoW galley is expected. It should have 2 Horses on it... so we need to shadow them with some WC's.

	17-04-2003 20:58									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Not as I expected... as far as I'm concerned, they seriously f*cked up not consolidating all three (at a minimum) or keeping the one on the galley as a threat to our iron. Hurricane is now much more defensible.

As expected based on the screenshot. I agree, not as expected from the previous turn.

	17-04-2003 21:00									#115
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I was testing with 3 Pikes and 4 Swords (anticipating that we could hold Hurricane without Zonk). Or 4 Pikes and 3 Swords/4Pikes and 4 Swords.

3 Pikes and 3 Swords means we most likely lose a WC or two and all most of our Pikes/Swords.

	17-04-2003 21:00									#116
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Yeah, it is a tough decision. Each option has its ups & downs.

I agree that trying to hold A9 is a bit of a gamble. But I think it's a gamble with good odds of success. Plus, pulling back does allow them to park a bunch of firepower on that mountain, where it is difficult to dislodge.

Theseus, what is your take on A9?

-Arrian

	17-04-2003 21:02									#117
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quote: 3 Pikes and 3 Swords means we most likely lose a WC or two and all most of our Pikes/Swords.

Really? It's that bad?

-Arrian

	17-04-2003 21:05									#118
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quote: Something I just noticed: we have five workers in a position where they could move onto Arashi 2 or Arashi 3 this turn and road it next turn.

Ah, perfect! I'd say Arashi 2, just because it allows them to go finish the mine on the incense hill the next turn.

	17-04-2003 21:12									#119
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On average it is that bad. Having 4 Swords means that we usually win 2 of the fights against them. That cuts out another Immortal that has to attack the extra survivor.

It's a close thing in any case, all our units (Pikes/Swords)are badly damaged, and another unit to take an attack means we save another 1-2 units from being killed while redlined or very low health.

Arashi 9 is a chance for a huge military victory for both sides. It's not worth the risk to us I don't think. We stand to have better odds almost anywhere else. If they 'split' Arashi and Tempest is the exception, one of the two cities would have about the same or lower odds while the other would still have higher. (given ND's cash, we could probably change that)

	17-04-2003 21:22									#120
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Consider the following scenario: We pull back to Arashi, build a road on Arashi 3, and upgrade our swords next turn. Vox moves onto Arashi 9 and from there to Arashi six. We get five medieval infantry attacks on them across the river if we keep Zonk in the Arashi theater (plus a cat attack while they're on the mountain and another the following turn). We also get about eight non-cross-river WC attacks, albeit without the reserve movement needed to get away from counterattacks. I think that gives us better odds than trying to hold at Arashi 9 does.

And if Vox moves 6 from Arashi 9 instead, I like our odds even better because our medieval infantry won't have to attack cross-river. The only big down side is that Vox would have a much better chance at counterattacing our surviving medieval infantry with their surviving immortals, although we could accompany the medieval infantry with a pike to make that a little more expensive for them.