17-04-2003 21:23									#121
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I've been puzzling out A9 all morning.

I'm am very reluctant to give it up... a stack of 11 Immortals at 3 of Arashi is waaaay up there on my STCOMOM.

What happens if A9 is defended by:
3 Pikes
4 Swords
5 WCs
1 Cat

I know it's sorta hanging it all out there, but?

[EDIT: Corrected to 5 WCs to leace the elite in Arashi... also, note that the WCs should not be fortified]

	18-04-2003 01:18									#122
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I think Aeson (and Nathan, I think) is saying that the answer to your question, Theseus, is this:

We might win big, we might lose big.

The arguement for abandoning A9 essentially boils down to this: we accept their ability to park some units up there that will cost us later to remove, in exchange for buying us an extra turn & a better defensive situation (hills + walls + fortification + barracks for instahealing).

I'm still not sure about it, but I see their points.

-Arrian

	18-04-2003 01:21									#123
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FYI, it looks like 'poly was down from 12:18 to 16:10, looking at the latest posts in OT as of 16:26.

So that's 3:52 hours.

	18-04-2003 01:23									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I think Aeson (and Nathan, I think) is saying that the answer to your question, Theseus, is this: We might win big, we might lose big. The arguement for abandoning A9 essentially boils down to this: we accept their ability to park some units up there that will cost us later to remove, in exchange for buying us an extra turn & a better defensive situation (hills + walls + fortification + barracks for instahealing). I'm still not sure about it, but I see their points. -Arrian

But what happens if they don;t just park at A9, and come further south?

I'm starting a new thread for this discussion.

	18-04-2003 01:23									#125
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If we let them take the mountain, then our cats will get two shots at them, once on our turn and then when they attack. If they move down, then we get a few more shots each. Not that helpful, but its something.

	18-04-2003 01:28									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus FYI, it looks like 'poly was down from 12:18 to 16:10, looking at the latest posts in OT as of 16:26. So that's 3:52 hours.

Yeah, it was down for a WHILE. Hell, I even went over to CivFanatics and posted a bit.

I really wanted to be discussing this, though.

Finished AU207, by the way

[/threadjack]

Believe me, I too worry about them leaving a token (but hard-as-hell-to-remove) force atop A9 and moving onward, but then again, if they move forward with less troops, we have a better chance of wiping their stack out.

It just isn't a simple decision. Aren't unpredictable (read: human) opponents fun?

-Arrian

	18-04-2003 01:31									#127
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel If we let them take the mountain, then our cats will get two shots at them, once on our turn and then when they attack. If they move down, then we get a few more shots each. Not that helpful, but its something.

True.

I have a bombardment question (I'm actually appalled I don't know this):

Do defensive bonus tiles, such as mountains, play a part in bombard rolls? Cats have a bombard of 4, right? A unit with a 2 defense is fairly likely to get hit... unless terrain modifiers count of course, and it's on a mountain, raising its defense to 4 and making cats much less effective. I honestly don't know.

I'll be a bit more comfortable with abandoning A9 for now if the mountain defense bonus does not effect bombardment.

-Arrian

	18-04-2003 01:36									#128
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I don;t tiles affect bombardment... where're Catt and alexman when you need'em?

	18-04-2003 01:36									#129
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If Vox leaves a token force on A9, we leave a token force of pikes in Arashi and otherwise ignore them - at least for the time being. Later, we could post guards to deal with them if they move onto flatter lands. We could take out Vox's entire civ while a few immortals sit harmlessly on the mountain if we want to.

Of course in practice, in the near term, Vox is more likely to keep troops moving through A9 than to park particular units there. But the effect would be much the same.

Nathan

	18-04-2003 01:39									#130
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My purely subjective belief is that terrain pretty definitely matters with bombardment. I've been using bombardment units a bit more lately than I used to, and it "feels" like they're a good bit less effective when the target is on a mountain.

	18-04-2003 01:41									#131
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quote: Of course in practice, in the near term, Vox is more likely to keep troops moving through A9 than to park particular units there

And that's actually my main concern. A9 with several Voxian spears on it is like a protected roadway for reinforcements. And imagine they are given feudalism and send a pike or two down to A9?

Still, like I said, I see both sides of this thing, and will admit I'm undecided as to the best course of action. What I will say is that I started out pretty vehemently pro-"hold the line" and am now in the middle.

-Arrian

	18-04-2003 01:42									#132
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay My purely subjective belief is that terrain pretty definitely matters with bombardment. I've been using bombardment units a bit more lately than I used to, and it "feels" like they're a good bit less effective when the target is on a mountain.

Yup, same thing for me. It "feels" that way to me too, but I don't know for sure, hence the question.

And I think it's important for us to know, since we're building (or buying) catapults. We ought to know exactly what our units can and cannot do.

-Arrian

	18-04-2003 02:51									#133
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CFC: Bombardment Investigation

	18-04-2003 03:14									#134
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Shiber, that link doesn't work for me

DeepO

	18-04-2003 03:49									#135
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1. I think it's the target's defense that matters in bombardment roles, assuming that it is modified defense then terrain certainly would affect the outcome. Of course I certainly could be wrong.

2. For what it's worth I think we should fall back to the city. If they decide to hold the mountain and move on I don't think we should worry about it. I don't know what our cultural comparison is, but I find it hard to believe they could hold one of our main cities for more than a few turns. Time is on our side. Has anyone ever had any success with taking 2nd (+) 'row' cities before the first? I certainly haven't.

3. If someone could send any saves, scenarios, screens, etc. to rgrant@zoo.uvm.edu I'd appreciate it.

	18-04-2003 03:53									#136
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I'm sending.

	18-04-2003 04:00									#137
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Nathan, give our realization that Vox could just press on south of A9 if they wished if we don't hold it, I assume you will now stack everything we've got up there and try to hold it.

Since we're banking on that now, how many workers can we get up on A9, and how long would it take them to build a fort?

-Arrian

	18-04-2003 04:11									#138
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I just ran some tests on bombardment to see. Looks like terrain plays a part... probably the same as it does in regular combat.

Test: (unit, terrain) (0 miss, 1 hit) (preserve random seed on to make sure the RNG string was the same each time)

W(G):
11110011011111111111
W(M):
10110011001101111111
S(G):
10110001001101111111

The Spear on Grassland has slightly better odds than the Warrior on the Mountain, which made a difference in 1 battle. The Warrior on Grassland gets hit a lot more than the Warrior on the Mountain.

Basically, we are going to be getting 50:0 shots at Vox with Catapults while they are on the Mountains. We can hit them 50% of the time, they can't hit us at all (in those battles).

When defending with Catapults I really don't know. I'd assume it's either the same, or the terrain gets taken out entirely.

	18-04-2003 04:55									#139
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Nathan, Can you make sure Monsoon doesn't grow?

Don't want to give them a city for a base.

	18-04-2003 05:11									#140
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thanks nathan

	18-04-2003 05:45									#141
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Military status:

We're still weak relative to Vox and RP. We're average relative to ND and Lego (which was ahead of us last I checked). And we're strong relative to GoW!

	18-04-2003 05:48									#142
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I've gotta do dinner, so I'll be off for a bit.

REALLY IMPORTANT

Can someone post in the public forum that we should bet a 3-4 hour extension?

Thanks.

	18-04-2003 05:51									#143
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Team scores:

214 (+5) Gathering Storm
212 (+3) Demogyptica
178 (+2) Glory of War
212 (+3) Role Play
142 (+2) Vox Controli
216 (+4) Legoland

	18-04-2003 05:53									#144
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We have a little more than two hours left before we hit 24, and I really have other things I need to be doing after that.

	18-04-2003 06:03									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Can someone post in the public forum that we should bet a 3-4 hour extension?

Wouldn't it be great to have soren make the time extension post. Nothing else. Wonder what they would think about that!

	18-04-2003 07:55									#146
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Whats with the temple in monsoon? Why not a war chariot or pike? I know the city is virtually toast, but a temple? Is a temple really needed before Vox is defending D'ville?

	18-04-2003 07:58									#147
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Switched to Cats, MSS. Just finished 1.

	18-04-2003 07:59									#148
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Switched to Cats, MSS. Just finished 1.

	18-04-2003 08:29									#149
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I hope you are all OK with my request for a turn extension in the public forum.

(Nobody stepped up, so I just did it)

	18-04-2003 08:30									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I hope you are all OK with my request for a turn extension in the public forum. (Nobody stepped up, so I just did it)