20-05-2003 11:05									#61
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There's a problem with the database or something where threads you post in don't go to the top.

Converted mana cost = casting cost = the little mana symbols and / or numbers in the corner.

	20-05-2003 11:48									#62
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Is anyone else disappointed that the unofficial card list only has four incidences of the text "Creature - Dragon"?

	20-05-2003 15:10									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. President Converted mana cost = casting cost = the little mana symbols and / or numbers in the corner.

I suppose the colour doesn't count. What about the "X's"? Are they considered to be 0?

	20-05-2003 15:13									#64
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I think for things that count the casting cost, like the thing in Scourge or the earlier ones in Invasion, X is considered 0.

Note that this is different from the way X is used on Mana Drain.

	20-05-2003 15:46									#65
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Yeah, it's the number of mana you need to cast it, colour irrelevant.
Converted mana cost = casting cost = the little mana symbols + numbers in the corner.

	20-05-2003 16:11									#66
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One quick question about the Slivers. If a Sliver has a certain ability, does it mean that all Slivers have the same, or it depends on the card text?

I also think it's pretty ridiculous to specify on a card, "This card cannot be countered." It even runs smack into WotC's explanation of how counters work, i.e., the spell itself never got off the ground.

	20-05-2003 19:15									#67
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Ah, I found that card. It's called Thought Lash, in Alliances.

Thought Lash
Enchantment
2UU

Cumulative Upkeep: Remove the top card of your library from the game. If you do not, remove your library from the game and bury Thought Lash.
0: Remove the top card of your library from the game to prevent 1 damage to you.

Imagine getting one Donated to you.

	20-05-2003 19:20									#68
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Donating something like Force of Nature could be also very nasty, seeing that the other side probably doesn't have any forests.

Oh wait. I got it. Donate Phage to your opponent. Instant game winner.

	20-05-2003 23:53									#69
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I also think it's pretty ridiculous to specify on a card, "This card cannot be countered." It even runs smack into WotC's explanation of how counters work, i.e., the spell itself never got off the ground.

I agree it's slightly illogical, but it is kind of cheap to say "I counter your spell that can't be countered, because I counter its "can't be countered" ability to!" You just have to assume the "can't be countered" is an inherent part of the card. You can counter a creature with protection from blue because it doesn't have prot. blue until it comes into play. However, a green card is still a green card, whether it's in play, in your hand, or in your graveyard, and effects that count this will notice it. Just like a card in your hand can be green, I suppose a card in your hand can already have "can't be countered."

It's slightly more bizarre with cards that interact with the removed-from-the-game zone. Things like Faceless Butcher, that remove a creature from the game and then return it when it dies, I often think that as the Butcher dies, it tries to return the creature it stole, but it's removed from the game! Where did it go? Beats me, it stays removed. 'course that's not what happens, but whatever.

	21-05-2003 00:13									#70
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Wow!

This thread sure took off.

Loinburger:

You can't use fire whip with the Phage, since the card specifies combat damage. You can see this from Dinodoc's post.

quote: Imagine having them both.

Heh. That will work well with my 5 colour sliver deck.

Thanks!

UR:

quote: One quick question about the Slivers. If a Sliver has a certain ability, does it mean that all Slivers have the same, or it depends on the card text?

Most cases, just being a sliver is enough. In the case of the sliver queen, the card text specifies that she is both a legend and a sliver, so you can't have two in play, and she is the only sliver who can make sliver tokens.

	21-05-2003 01:35									#71
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Heh. That will work well with my 5 colour sliver deck. Thanks!

You're welcome. You're opponents might be cursing me though.

	21-05-2003 02:09									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Oh wait. I got it. Donate Phage to your opponent. Instant game winner.

Or, in fact, not. Phage does not leave play at any time and come into play under your opponents control:

Donate
{2}{U}
Sorcery
Target player gains control of target permanent you control.

Unlike, say Astral Slide:

Astral Slide
{2}{W}
Enchantment
Whenever a player cycles a card, you may remove target creature from the game. If you do, return that creature to play under its owner's control at end of turn.

Or again, Faceless Butcher, as Snowfire states.

Either of these methods would cause Phage's controller to lose the game when it came back into play after either effect ended.

Told you Phage was crap.

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 This thread sure took off.

Getting way off-topic as well. Would it be worth creating a new Rules thread for rules Q and As?

	21-05-2003 13:50									#73
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Heh. That will work well with my 5 colour sliver deck.

5 colours? You're going to have mana problems

	21-05-2003 16:00									#74
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The way the 5-colour sliver decks I've played against work, you count on getting two colours in your hand, then use all sorts of land-retreival cards to get them out of your library and in play. Because slivers are generally quite cheap and comparatively powerful en masse to other creatures, you can survive with little mana of each colour for long enough.
Let's see...
Harrow {2}{G}
As an additional cost to play Harrow, sacrifice a land.
Search your library for up to two basic land cards and put them into play
---
Any of the bottom three:
here.
It can work against slower decks I guess.

That said, I've beaten every sliver deck I've encountered with my crappy preconstructed one

	21-05-2003 18:15									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger 5 colours? You're going to have mana problems

That hasn't been the case in my experience.

quote: That said, I've beaten every sliver deck I've encountered with my crappy preconstructed one

Which one?

	21-05-2003 18:23									#76
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"Moxes and Lotuses." It's one of the older preconstructed decks.

	21-05-2003 21:32									#77
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quote: Originally posted by SnowFire I suppose a card in your hand can already have "can't be countered."

Then sooner or later, a blue counter comes along with "this spell can counter spells that can't be countered" in the text.

	21-05-2003 21:36									#78
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger "Moxes and Lotuses." It's one of the older preconstructed decks.

That's crappy?

	21-05-2003 22:06									#79
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: That said, I've beaten every sliver deck I've encountered with my crappy preconstructed one Which one?

Invasion's Blowout

The only customization I did was to add some forests for my Thunderscape Apprentices to utilise and then swapped the firescreamer out I think for some more red direct-damage spells.

	22-05-2003 03:32									#80
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I'm kind of suprised you never ran across a Sliver deck with a Ward Sliver then.

	22-05-2003 04:46									#81
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I have done, twice I think. One of them is ok, since I can take them out with red or black.

On the one occasion I was faced with two, one chose red, one black, I think they were too slow on the table, and had very little backup, since I'd been knocking the other slivers off soona s they arrived. I can't imagine I killed them, so I guess I used the Ghitu Fire or Soul Burn direct to the controller and wiped him out before he could kill me. Either that or I just had a huge creature advantage by then...

	22-05-2003 07:39									#83
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You're right, those decks look like crap.

	23-05-2003 09:43									#84
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Btw, I just saw the coolest Big white creature:

Jareth, Leonine Titan:

it cost {www(3 generic mana)}

Cat Giant Legend

Whenever Jareth, Leonine Titan blocks, it gets +7/+7 until end of turn.
w: Jareth gains Protection from the color of your choice until end of turn

and its a 4/7 creature!!!

I am very surprised of this creature, because i've never seen something like it when I was playing magic (fallen empires - weatherlight).

	23-05-2003 10:04									#85
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Christ! You'd need something like a Heedless One or a Nightmare to take that out.

	23-05-2003 10:13									#86
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Christ! You'd need something like a Heedless One or a Nightmare to take that out.

Well, actually none of them since it has protection of all colors.

	23-05-2003 12:51									#87
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Yeah, I played against a deck that had that. I lost, somewhat unsurprisingly.

	23-05-2003 13:59									#88
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quote: Originally posted by thinkingamer Btw, I just saw the coolest Big white creature: Jareth, Leonine Titan: it cost {www(3 generic mana)} Cat Giant Legend Whenever Jareth, Leonine Titan blocks, it gets +7/+7 until end of turn. w: Jareth gains Protection from the color of your choice until end of turn and its a 4/7 creature!!! I am very surprised of this creature, because i've never seen something like it when I was playing magic (fallen empires - weatherlight).

Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. Nasty. Vicious.

It could block one of those colossus things without dying.

The only thing to do is to play Mana Short, followed by Control Magic.

	23-05-2003 14:40									#89
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quote: Kjeldoran Outpost Land, Alliances Rare When Kjeldoran Outpost comes into play, sacrifice a plains or bury Kjeldoran Outpost. T: Add W to your mana pool. 1W, T: Put a Soldier token into play. Treat this token as a 1/1 white creature.

Nice! Goes great with white weenies.

	23-05-2003 21:51									#90
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Christ! You'd need something like a Heedless One or a Nightmare to take that out.

... Chainer's Edict, Diabolic Edict, Innocent Blood, Mutilate, Wrath of God, Evacuation, and probably many more.

I actually played against this in the pre-release, but the one time my oppo had this is hand he couldn't get the triple-white mana necessary until too late.

If you think Jareth's a buff, check out Exalted Angel, the most sought after card in Onslaught Block:

Exalted Angel
{4}{W}{W}
Creature - Angel
4/5
Flying. Whenever Exalted Angel deals damage, you gain that much life. Morph 2WW (You may play this face down as a 2/2 creature for 3. Turn it face up any time for its morph cost.)

Note that Exalted Angel doesn't require damage to be "combat damage".