28-04-2003 09:35									#1
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To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Status:

- 153 gold, +136gpt

Check this and every turn to see if we lost some war unweariness due to the killing of troops within cultural borders and therefore must readjust the lux slider.

Urgent questions:

Is there land to the SW?

Military:


Economy:

-Worker 4 of EotS move 741.
-Workers(3) 8 of Hurricane road.

(during build queue)
Short rush Pike in Bolderberg (32g)
Rush Pike in Sandstorm (108g)

Diplomacy:

- Deal with ND postponed (due to bureaucracy, we are told).

Thread library:
- Standing orders for workers (Orders last revised April 5.)

Last edited by Aeson on 28-04-2003 at 10:05

	28-04-2003 10:14									#2
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Since we are fairly well off financially, should we start considering researching Chivalry? I think that knights would be quite effective in the push north, esp with a few squares of (now roaded) jungle.

	28-04-2003 10:19									#3
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If we can still somehow get Chivalry from GoW I think we should buy it. It will cost us less that way.

Who knows what ND is doing. They could have been halfway to Chivalry by now but they don't even have Feudalism?

	28-04-2003 10:20									#4
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What in the world is wrong with ND? Aren't they concerned about GoW gaining riders and pinching them with RP?

Or are they going to ally with GoW against RP and aren't afraid of anything?

Questions, Questions, I wish they would either accept or say something otherwise.


GoW-

They haven't given feudal to anyone yet, but that might be because ND is after us, right, in the turn?

Or maybe Vox just took out a K on us and they are fulfilling it, well, Vox thinks they are.



Sometimes I just get the feeling that we are being tugged in certain directions by Togas.

	28-04-2003 10:21									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson If we can still somehow get Chivalry from GoW I think we should buy it. It will cost us less that way.

I doubt they will ever declare peace with us long enough to sell us chivalry. They won't drop the charade.

	28-04-2003 10:34									#6
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Probably not. It's still cheaper for us to research after they have it though. Especially if they are going to trade it around.

Also if we could hold off on upgrading to Knights until we build Leo's it's going to save us a ton of cash.

	28-04-2003 11:50									#7
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If we want Leo's, we need to push hard on researching Engineering and Invention. Engineering would also make our river a lot less of an obstacle, not that Vox is likely to have troops in our territory anymore by the time we'd get it.

	28-04-2003 11:57									#8
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay If we want Leo's, we need to push hard on researching Engineering and Invention. Engineering would also make our river a lot less of an obstacle, not that Vox is likely to have troops in our territory anymore by the time we'd get it.

Is it possible to estimate the timing on getting Inv, if we started now? It might be prudent to start a prebuild for leo, GA turns. Do we know what lego and ND are researching? I wouldn't count on getting another leader to build leo's.

I would imagine that GoW might work that Great library towards leo once we've got STs. Upgrade those horsies into nice riders. Otherwise that GL is nearly useless at this point. Granted, invention is still a long ways off. Perhaps they have an agreement with ND or RP to exchange Feudal and perhaps chivalry in exchange for engineering????

	28-04-2003 12:02									#9
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If we started Leo's right now (which we won't), the soonest we could build 600 shields in Hurricane or EotS would be quite a while still. We have 12 turns left on our GA I think (Started on turn 92?), so that's 360 shields. Leaving 12 more turns at 20 shields per turn, 24 in all.

	28-04-2003 12:07									#10
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If we could save cash for improvements right now I think it helps us in the long run. Tempest's Aquaduct would be the most helpful, along with short rushes in Hurricane, Tempest, and EotS on Marketplaces (30, rush 40, 70, 100). Then Libraries... then research IMO.

All that has to wait until Vox is no longer a threat of course.

	28-04-2003 12:24									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson All that has to wait until Vox is no longer a threat of course.

Thank you. I will put away my slapping hand.

	28-04-2003 12:27									#12
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The aquaduct at Tempest is a good point for conversation, once we don't have immortals threatening key cities...

How many turns, or how many shields, and how many gold on those various turns to rush it? And then, how many turns of WC at Cyclone do we want to give up to fully, and quickly populate it?

	28-04-2003 12:28									#13
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Are we taking bets on Vox's next move?

I think they will (1) hold the save the full time, trying to figure out what to do (and if there are GoW reinforcements on the horizon)
and (2) stay put, waiting for reinforcement immortals.

I think Vox is hesitant to use their stack, as its loss would end the game for them. Thus, they are dragging their feet. My impressions anyway. I thought they would hit Arashi last turn, panicking after they saw 25% of their army go poof.

	28-04-2003 12:30									#14
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They will break cover for SS this turn. $5.

They will continue on towards EotS down the chain. $5.

I am covering my bets. I am in the hole. I need to.

	28-04-2003 12:47									#15
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I don't know what they'll do. They don't have any good options, but they don't know that either. All they saw in Tempest was a WC last turn... so how much could we have moved in?

Now they see Tempest with city walls, and a Pike showing. And they see SS... I think they'll figure out that we can leapfrog them wherever they go and just fight it out. Arashi probably.

	28-04-2003 12:49									#16
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quote: Thank you. I will put away my slapping hand.

Ah.. but I'm sure you could find some use for it once I start defining when Vox has stopped being a threat.

	28-04-2003 12:59									#17
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If I'm Vox, I hit Arashi and hope GS focused its forces on defending Tempest. That's where I can bring the most of my forces to bear, and if I can win there, I have clear sailing to bring reinforcements down near GS's heartland. It's the only real chance I have left. Taking EotS with six healthy immortals and a wounded one is next to impossible when I have to cross flatlands to do it, and as long as GS controls Arashi, getting reinforcements down to my big stack takes way too long.

If I've already given up all hope of victory, I might go for Sandstorm as my best chance of taking out one GS city before I die. But I know what happened to six of my units last time I came down off the mountains, so even assuming I have survivors to take Sandstorm, I can expect to lose enough in the process that I'll never be able to seriously threaten GS again. It's a "go out in a blaze of glory" move, pure and simple.

	28-04-2003 13:03									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Ah.. but I'm sure you could find some use for it once I start defining when Vox has stopped being a threat.

It is being held in reserve.

	28-04-2003 13:13									#19
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Tempest is at 15 shields a turn. That puts us at:

0/120: 960g
15/120: 420g
30/120: 360g
45/120: 300g
60/120: 240g
75/120: 180g
90/120: 120g
105/120: 60g
120/120: 0g

The best options for short rushing would be:

15->30 (Temple/Horse/Pike), 60g, cuts off 1 turn
15->60 (Cathedral/Musket), 180g, cuts off 3turns

So it's not very well set up. To get to the Cathedral we'd need the Temple... to get to the Musket... well we need a few techs.

Of course if we have the Workers to add, each turn we build the Aquaduct sooner is +10 shields to overall production. At 40g worth of shields per turn increase, it becomes a much cheaper rush from an efficiency standpoint. Especially when added commerce is factored in. It basically ends up costing less than 20g per turn of the build saved.

More wasteful short rushes might not be a bad idea.

15->80 (Library/Courthouse), 260g, cuts off 4 turns.

... If only we could build Infantry! Then we could rush to 90...

-----------------------

Looking at it like this, I think the Marketplaces in EotS and Hurricane should take precidence over the Aquaduct in Tempest as 'peaceful' building projects.

	28-04-2003 13:19									#20
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I agree with your take on SS Nathan. It's a 'give up and take your consolation prize' type move.

They still could seriously threaten Arashi if they just fortify and that road completes. If they have 5-10 Immortals to come over the Mountains the first turn... it's still not enough though. Our Cats will have seriously damaged their S stack, freeing up Tempest Pikes to go to Arashi. Not to mention their N stack has to either waste another turn, or land on the flats.

In short, I don't see any good moves for them. The time to strike for SS was last turn. The turn before was the time to hit Arashi.

	28-04-2003 13:26									#21
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If we went max shields, how much could Tempest produce at size 6?

	28-04-2003 13:29									#22
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If we get Tempest to 80 shields, we should be able to get the last 20 in a single turn running a food deficit. (Edit: No, I wasn't answering your question; it was just a fortuitous crosspost. )

	28-04-2003 13:40									#23
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How long could we run at the 20 shields in a food deficit? Tempest doesn't run a deficit at size 12... so it doesn't need any extra food.

	28-04-2003 13:45									#24
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If Vox had kept their main stack together and reinforced Arashi 9, now would be the perfect time to hit Arashi. The need for us to hold Tempest would more than make up for the extra time they gave us to build troops - unless we were willing to bet Tempest's survival on Vox choosing Arashi as their target. And even then, we'd need a pike in Tempest to put on a show for them, partially negating the advantage we can get from the extra time. I'm really, really glad Vox decided to send those five immortals and a spearman where we could get them instead.

	28-04-2003 13:52									#25
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It will be interesting to see why Vox made that decision.

Is it due to the undervaluation of WCs? They thought they were much stronger than we were?

Or they expected us to build mainly defenders, thus not being able to attack their stack?

They thought we couldn't attack the two immortal stacks simultaneously (and the GoW units to boot :lol?


Vox has certainly showed some moxy in this war, showing that they are competent in playing at least the AI and probably most humans.

I just wonder what would have happened had they used that galley to ferry over 20 immortals to, say, the iron deposit, thus bypassing Grog. I guess they figured we couldn't respond in time...

	28-04-2003 13:54									#26
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I'm not going to reopen a save this late at night just to run "what-if" calculations. Ask me again when we get the next turn, or maybe someone else will be in a mood to check it out before then. (Note that at the end of Turn 100, we'll have an extra mine at Arashi 1-1 and thus be able to produce more without cannibalizing other cities too mcuh.)

One thing to keep in mind, though: if we run too much of a sustained deficit, we can't take advantage of the city's natural growth to get it up to size 7 in a timely manner.

	28-04-2003 14:01									#27
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Remember that we had a lookout on the east coast too, so Vox had to stage north of where we were watching. Their original plan called for landing two immortals by galley, which would travel overland, and bringing in four more immortals by ship to reinforce those. That's about as much as they could hope to do in a timely manner. Our WCs spoiled their plan, killing one of the immortals that were supposed to travel overland and forcing their galley to pick up and deliver the second. That, in turn, delayed their final wave of immortals a little. So instead of facing the six immortals we were supposed to, we only have to face five, and two of those five are at least a turn behind where they were supposed to be. Really, more immortals on the east coast wouldn't have made a lot of sense with just one galley to ferry them; it takes too long, and it would have pulled forces away from the western front where their larger force was. Also note that Vox had no clue exactly where our iron was until their immortals came south a bit from their landing position; for all they knew, it was in the West instead of the East.

	28-04-2003 14:02									#28
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No problem. I think we'd be running a 4 food deficit and we're full now at 20 food. That would give us 5 turns. Might be worth the extra Worker to build it in 4-5 turns with only a 60 or 120g rush

I just noticed that I have 1879 posts.. and only ~700 of them are in public forums...

	28-04-2003 14:03									#29
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Remember that we had a lookout on the east coast too, so Vox had to stage north of where we were watching. Their original plan called for landing two immortals by galley, which would travel overland, and bringing in four more immortals by ship to reinforce those. That's about as much as they could hope to do in a timely manner. Our WCs spoiled their plan, killing one of the immortals that were supposed to travel overland and forcing their galley to pick up and deliver the second. That, in turn, delayed their final wave of immortals a little. So instead of facing the six immortals we were supposed to, we only have to face five, and two of those five are at least a turn behind where they were supposed to be. Really, more immortals on the east coast wouldn't have made a lot of sense with just one galley to ferry them; it takes too long, and it would have pulled forces away from the western front where their larger force was. Also note that Vox had no clue exactly where our iron was until their immortals came south a bit from their landing position; for all they knew, it was in the West instead of the East.

No, I meant they could travel from their iron deposit in a southwesterly direction, avoiding grog and ending in dissidentville. I think they could have done that without detection.


edit: I should add that they could have moved into D'ville if there had been a road through the jungle. There isn't, I don't think, but if there was, they could avoide detection heading SW.

	28-04-2003 14:08									#30
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They did that to a limited extent I think. But it takes a lot of time for them... and their Immortals were getting close to being made obsolete.