28-04-2003 14:19									#31
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They could have done it without detection, but using how much time? If all they had for the operation was a single galley, at two turns per round trip, it would have taken sixteen turns to ferry sixteen units around. Add to that the time required to move the troops down through the jungle to Dissidentville and that's a lot of time for GS to decide maybe it needs some defenses after all. Attacking Grog gave us two turns' more warning, but it sped up their attack by a great deal more than that. (And on top of that, they would have needed a road either 9-9 or 9-6 from Dissidentville to sneak immortals in past the Hack, who was stationed 2-3 from Dissidentville.)

	28-04-2003 14:20									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson They did that to a limited extent I think. But it takes a lot of time for them... and their Immortals were getting close to being made obsolete.

Excellent point. Imagine if we had gotten Chivalry during the time they were shuttling immortals into position!

	28-04-2003 14:29									#33
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay They could have done it without detection, but using how much time? If all they had for the operation was a single galley, at two turns per round trip, it would have taken sixteen turns to ferry sixteen units around. Add to that the time required to move the troops down through the jungle to Dissidentville and that's a lot of time for GS to decide maybe it needs some defenses after all. Attacking Grog gave us two turns' more warning, but it sped up their attack by a great deal more than that. (And on top of that, they would have needed a road either 9-9 or 9-6 from Dissidentville to sneak immortals in past the Hack, who was stationed 2-3 from Dissidentville.)

Of course this is all conjecture at this point.

Galleys cost the same as immortals. How many have we seen, or rather how many did they likely have at the beginning of this escapade? 15 perhaps? Build 5 galleys instead of 5 immortals and you can land ten in two turns on that deposit. With roads, thats 2 turns to D'ville from their iron deposit. Not to mention if they had built one road D2 on their jungle, that would let them get to Arashi in 3 turns. I doubt we could have saved it then.

That would be what, two or three more turns to get their army to dissidentville than they took this time? Well, its not like we were building any military units until they attacked grog. What would a ten immortal stack at d'ville circa 690 do to us, esp if we weren't in golden age (which but for that screw up of there's we wouldn't have been)

edit: and we know they had been planning this for some time, they had time to build that road from their iron to d'ville before attacking.

	28-04-2003 14:58									#34
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With 20-20 hindsight, a plan built around more galleys and more surprise would have worked a lot better. If they had bypassed Ouch and landed three galleys full of immortals on the mountains outside Hurricane, holding Hurricane would have been a huge problem and holding Sandstorm too in the process would have been impossible. And three or four galleys could have ferried lots of troops around Grog.

But consider what Vox knew at the time. With the way we were REXing, it had to look like we wouldn't have much in the way of big cities. They had no reason to believe we had a size-11 Hurricane, or to think we would or even could double EotS's size so quickly. Then there's Tempest, Bolderberg, Cyclone, and Tornado, all where Vox couldn't see them. Based on what Vox knew, their production in a golden age would likely be competitive with ours not in a golden age, so the warning Grog gave us would be of only limited value.

It's what Vox didn't know (and still, I imagine, doesn't fully realize), plus their giving us a chance to trigger a GA so close to when they triggered theirs, that gave us the production we needed to foil their wonderful plan.

One other thing about time: they used a ruse about invading Bob to get us not to worry about their being strong militarily compared with us, but that would have worn thin if they took a long time and no invasion materialized. For all they knew, we were already trying to close the gap that their immortal upgrades from their first landing on Bob created, and that could have been especially nasty for them if we had tried to close the gap by building lots more veteran warriors for upgrade.

	28-04-2003 15:02									#35
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Good points Nathan. We have no idea what Vox has been thinking, if they have been manipulated into attacking by Togas or if they thought we were just ripe for the taking and badly miscalculated.

I hope that we can bring in one member of their team, perhaps Wittlich, he seems rather neutral to us (or whomever approached Vel about the cease fire) so that we could learn more about their motivations.

with this, I think we should move back to discussions about this turn, my apologies for the off topic spam.

	28-04-2003 15:10									#36
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One last off-topic thing to consider: as long as Vox's gold held out and they were set up to build and upgrade warriors, a galley was worth up to three immortals, not just one.

	28-04-2003 15:57									#37
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I get the impression that Vox didn't actually have a clear plan - it was a case of 'invade, and we'll see how things go'. Going for Monsoon is a case in point. A well organised plan would have focussed their forces on a single target. Diverting a small stack to attack Monsoon was always going to be a bad idea, especially when they could use the spinebreakers to get to Arashi. Their current position on Arashi 2 is a good one, forcing us to defend two cities, but at the expense of giving us enough time to do so. They just didn't have enough troops in their first stack.

Do we have enough spare pikemen to stick on each on Arashi 3 and Tempest 3? It wouldn't hold either mountain, but would probably cost them an immortal to move onto either, and trading 30 shield units works in our favour, since we have better production. (Okay, so they're building warriors and upgrading, but in total cost of shields and gold, pikemen are cheaper for us than for them).

BTW do we have a model of Vox lands to determine their gold/shield production exactly? (Use the editor to create a scenario with their lands on the correct map size, to see how they do with GA, corruption taken into account correctly). It would be useful to know exactly what gpt they are generating, to know what their warrior production and immortal upgrade rate is like.

	28-04-2003 16:04									#38
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As long as Vox has their full stack threatening both cities, we need every pike we can get in Tempest and Arashi. If Vox wants to move to a place where they're no longer threatening both cities, I have no objection at all.

	28-04-2003 18:24									#39
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If they don't attack next turn, we'll get 6 cat shots at their stack, and then maybe we can make Theseus happy by hitting them with some med inf attacks.

I hope they attack, though, since that's to our advantage. Then we can counterattack & wipe them out.

Re: wonders... it sure would be nice to snag the Colossus in Hurricane. It requires 8 turns of GA production. I think it's worth it. If we beat Lego to it (dunno if they're even building it), we deny them their GA (since they're despots, maybe that's not the best idea ). All I know is that Hurricane with +1 commerce/tile until Flight sounds good.

-Arrian

	28-04-2003 18:25									#40
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One request:

Can we switch EotS from pikemen to Horsemen next turn? I still think we need more hitting power.

-Arrian

	28-04-2003 19:19									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian One request: Can we switch EotS from pikemen to Horsemen next turn? I still think we need more hitting power. -Arrian

Aren't MedInfs more useful at this stage?
We're still fighting inside our territories with our roads so we don't need the speed of horsemen, and soon we may be marching on mountains and jungle - again, not ideal for horses.

	28-04-2003 19:20									#42
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Amen to that.....while we're steaming along, it'd be AWESOME to snag another wonder or two....and that one's quick to build....

-=Vel=-

	28-04-2003 19:41									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Aren't MedInfs more useful at this stage? We're still fighting inside our territories with our roads so we don't need the speed of horsemen, and soon we may be marching on mountains and jungle - again, not ideal for horses.

Valid points. However, EotS is producing 30 shields/turn. That means that producing Med Inf takes 2 turns and "wastes" 20 shields.

There are more efficient places to produce Med Inf, I believe.

My current concept of our counteroffensive (to take place AFTER we crush the main Voxian stack on the Spinebreakers, and hopefully fight a decisive action vs. the Eastern Voxian Immortal group) is to simultaneously do the following:

1) Hit the units 6, 9 of Monsoon with all of our catapults and then follow with whatever Med Inf we have left. Then, move most of our pikemen up onto that mountain. Hopefully, Vox will have completed the road for us

2) Load an eastern galley with a couple of units to try and go cut Vox's iron.

3) Mass units/galleys in the west for Operation Inchon.

The short answer is yeah, we could use more med inf too, and we will build it (probably in Arashi?), but not much more. Once we punch through the Spinebreakers (particularly if Inchon succeeds as I hope), horsemen/WCs are more valueable.

-Arrian

	28-04-2003 19:52									#44
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Wonder: I tend to support building the Colossus in Hurricane, even right away. Still, it largely depends on the results of the next turn - if it turns out well then I'd be all in favor of starting the Colossus in Hurricane (especially with knight upgrades coming up relatively soon).

Btw, isn't it about time that we build a harbor and start producting a veteran navy?

	28-04-2003 19:59									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Valid points. However, EotS is producing 30 shields/turn. That means that producing Med Inf takes 2 turns and "wastes" 20 shields.

I thought that we could somehow adjust EotS to lower production in exchange for more commerce. That way, we would still be producing MedInfs at a rate of 1 per 2 turns, but is waiting really bad enough to justify building much inferior units at 75% of the price?

quote: 1) Hit the units 6, 9 of Monsoon with all of our catapults and then follow with whatever Med Inf we have left. Then, move most of our pikemen up onto that mountain. Hopefully, Vox will have completed the road for us

Game mechanics question: if Vox builds a fortress, will they be able to bombard us from the fortress? Or does the ZOC effect only inflict damage on units passing from one adjacent tile to another, not on units entering an adjacent tile or parking on it?
If it's the latter, then I support this idea.

	28-04-2003 20:11									#46
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Fortress ZOC (like bombard ZOC) only kicks in when moving troops from one adjacent tile to another.

-Arrian

	28-04-2003 20:30									#47
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I hoped so, thanks.

	28-04-2003 20:43									#48
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With the choice of producing 1 Med Inf or 2 horsemen in 2 turns, which gives better value?

Attacking a 2 defense unit (immortal or spearman) on open ground:

2 horsemen win 77.8% of the time, losing 0.44 units on average (about 50% chance of not losing any units).

1 med inf wins 79.2% of the time, (so losing 0.2 units on average).


Attacking a 2 defense unit on a mountain:

2 horsemen win 43.6% of the time, losing 0.72 units on average.

1 med inf wins 50.0% of the time, losing 0.5 units on average (no big surprise there).

All calculations for healthy veteran units. So, in terms of the combats we are going to be facing, the med inf has more killing power and durability than the horsemen. OTOH horsemen are more useful for picking off wounded units and units with defense value of 1 (and can better defend a town in an emergency by weight of numbers). Med inf are obviously less vulnerable to counterattack in mountains than horsemen. Horsemen can upgrade to knights soon though, although it takes a lot of cash.

In terms of immediate usefulness, I'd say the med inf wins out, but once we have enough for immediate needs (namely holding our cities and taking out the main Vox stacks) then horsemen become more useful.

	28-04-2003 20:48									#49
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quote: In terms of immediate usefulness, I'd say the med inf wins out, but once we have enough for immediate needs (namely holding our cities and taking out the main Vox stacks) then horsemen become more useful.

That's basically what I was trying to say. Looking at the medium to long term, Horsemen are the way to go. Med Inf are a short term need, and we do have some already. A few more ought to be enough.

-Arrian

	28-04-2003 21:00									#50
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Good way of presenting the numbers vulture.
I mostly agree with Vulture and Arrian. I think MedInfs have a longer lifespan/"usefulness-span" than you describe. An attack on D'Ville should be carried out by MedInfs covered by pikes IMHO, and the same thing goes for a landing. In these two situations the fast movement of the horses is not useful to us, and we don't want to give the enemy's militaristic units free upgrades by attacking them on mountains or inside cities using weak units.

	28-04-2003 21:16									#51
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What are the possible timeframes for getting chivalry through trade? We surely want to stockpile some horse units in preperation for upgrading to knights (at which point MI become largely obsolete, although cheap to build). Until then the MI are the main combat unit, with horses/chariots looking for easy kills for elites, and for mopping up wounded or exposed units (if they come off the mountains). (Should we make use of the healing effects of upgrading wounded WCs to full health horsemen, or is that not the best use of money at the moment?)

But MI are only vital until chivalry, and if that comes soon then the MI window of usefulness is quite small (although I suspect that given a choice between 2 MI or a knight for attacking D'ville over the mountains, the MI would win out).

	28-04-2003 21:18									#52
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Vulture,

WCs no longer upgrade to horsemen. That was short-lived, and removed. I forget when it was patched out, but it was a while ago.

-Arrian

	28-04-2003 21:21									#53
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Shows how long it is since I last played the Egyptians...

	28-04-2003 22:37									#54
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Arrian, I'd like to get one more pike out of EotS no matter what. If Vox stays holed up in the mountains north of Hurricane, I'd like to be able to replace the swordsmen currently defending with pikes so we can upgrade the swords to medieval infantry. Then we can decide whether to go in and attack with medieval infantry or to keep the Voxians bottled up (with WCs ready to pounce if they come down off the mountains) but use at least most of the medieval infantry farther north.

	28-04-2003 23:01									#55
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Ok. We are going to need a fair number of pikes in order to invade Vox (and for operation Inchon, should we choose to do it).

-Arrian

	29-04-2003 22:46									#56
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I tend to believe that Vox will not attack Arashi nor Tempest this turn. I think that it's very possible that like last time, Vox will avoid attacking the big scary walled hill city where we are prepared for them and go elsewhere. They must understand that by going further and deeper into our territory they are only putting themselves in range of more attackers, so my guess is that they'll move 6, to Sandstorm.
I think we have to prepare for this possibility.

We have 3 (?) catapults in Tempest which can move 6 and fire at the immortals with a ~60% chance of hitting. We can move a few pikemen from Tempest (which will no longer be under immediate threat) to defend the catapults should Vox still have immortals left in that stack by the end of the turn. Oh, and another cat from Sandstorm (we can rush it at the beginning of the turn, right?) would be nice (it'd have a ~65% chance of hitting).
Afterwards, we can send MedInfs and swords from the area of Hurricane (we should have 2 MedInfs in range). Since we don't want to run thin in that front, I'd send only one MedInf to kill the unit at the top of the stack, and finish the rest with healthy WCs from Sandstorm, Arashi and Tempest. If too many of our attacks fail and we'll absolutely have to do this in order to save Sandstorm, we can send another MedInf from the Hurricane front.
Finally, use the 3 cats in Arashi to bombard the spearman A9, invent the Internet and win the game. Or alternatively, we could wipe it out and join the Izzard team.

Last edited by Shiber on 29-04-2003 at 23:38

	30-04-2003 03:33									#57
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Vox is on the clock.

Is this the turn of the game for them, or do they chicken out and hold on the mountain. So eager. I bet the hold this one for some time.


edit: well I certainly missed on that last one, vox has already sent to lego, not long now hopefully

Last edited by asleepathewheel on 30-04-2003 at 05:25

	30-04-2003 07:50									#58
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Hmmm. They moved quickly. Must have had a plan in place that was not disrupted by anything we did during our turn.

They moved on. Either to SS or futher down the Spinebreakers. They may have fortified too, to await a new stack approaching Arashi.

	30-04-2003 07:54									#59
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Hmmm. They moved quickly. Must have had a plan in place that was not disrupted by anything we did during our turn. They moved on. Either to SS or futher down the Spinebreakers. They may have fortified too, to await a new stack approaching Arashi.

I suspect the latter. they have seen what happens when they set foot on the flats. Of course, they probably think we lost a lot to take them out, instead of only losing one WC. This team is a mystery.

	30-04-2003 08:14									#60
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Alexman's post about city walls has me thinking we should try to get Arashi up to size 7 ASAP.

quote: In reality, it's only the bombard defense that expires when the city reaches size 7. The defense bonus remains until the walls are sold or destroyed, no matter what the size of the city.

This would put our Pikes there up to 83.7% against a Vet Immortal before factoring in the Cats.

If Vox parks between our two cities, I think this is our best defense to keep from losing Arashi in a sandwich with their next stack. It could probably get us up to 3 turn Med Inf or even 2 turn Pike/Horses as well.