30-04-2003 23:13									#121
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Inchon.

By the way, if we're thinking about doing Inchon anytime soon, nevermind what I said about hunting GoW's galley. We will need our galley for the Inchon op, and so the cost/benifit analysis swings back toward playing it safe.

-Arrian

	30-04-2003 23:14									#122
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If we're planning an Inchon operation in the west, we need to avoid losing galleys there. On that basis, I don't think going after GoW's galley is worthwhile. Edit: cross-posted with Arrian.

	30-04-2003 23:17									#123
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Have we considered landing many pikes or pikes+medinfs and a catapult / catapults on Grog's mountain, and bombarding various sections of the road with the cat?
Sure, we run the risk of losing the cat(s) if they manage to kill our pikemen, but hey - if we land on the mountain with 4 pikes, a medinf and a cat, Vox will have to go through a lot of casualties (unless they have phenomenal luck) just to capture that catapult.

	30-04-2003 23:18									#124
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Unfortunately, cats are wheeled, meaning that they can't operate on unroaded mountains.

	30-04-2003 23:20									#125
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Unfortunately, cats are wheeled, meaning that they can't operate on unroaded mountains.

Bummer, I forgot

	30-04-2003 23:27									#126
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I'm looking at Inchon this way:

3 galleys. That's 6 units. 4 pikes, settler, plus an attack unit (med inf or horse). Then the galleys can go back and grab more fastmovers so we can nail any Voxian troops that try to get around Inchon. Build priorities in Inchon: walls, barracks.

Meanwhile, several pikes, supported by the rest of our med inf, horsies & cats, march on Dissidentville. We will most likely need workers too, since they will probably be smart enough to break the road they are now building. If we can muster (and feel like risking) 5 workers, they can build a 1 tile/turn road on mountains.

-Arrian

	30-04-2003 23:37									#127
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I have a suggestion for what I call Operation Road Grab:

(1) Move the medieval infantry and both healed elite WCs from Tempest into Arashi.

(2) Short rush a new medieval infantry in Arashi.

(3) Move the newly healed WC from Sandstorm and a regular WC from Arashi into Tempest. (Edit: Corrected)

That gives us four fortified pikes, two healthy vet WCs, and a wounded (1/4) vet WC to defend Tempest, making it theoretically possible but statistically essentially impossible for Vox to take the city if they pick it as their target. More importantly, it gives us three cats, three vet medieval infantry, and three regular medieval infantry to go after Vox's road with next turn. If all goes well, instead of Vox having a road into our territory, they'll find Gathering Storm pikes and whatever medieval infantry we have left over after the attack sitting right outside Dissidentville (and maybe even some elite WCs besides, depending on what risks we're willing to take).

The down sides are (1) we'd probably have to give Vox a theoretical possibility of taking Tempest or Arashi if they get lucky (or at least of clobbering some elite WCs) after we've moved forces to threaten Dissidentville, (2) we couldn't use medieval infantry from Tempest to help if Vox moves against Sandstorm, and (3) we could get hurt badly if the RNG turns against us and the operation fails in spite of the odds in our favor. But if we can take Dissidentville in a lightning stroke, Vox's iron supply will follow quickly.

Nathan

Last edited by nbarclay on 30-04-2003 at 23:43

	30-04-2003 23:48									#128
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quote: ...it gives us three cats, three vet medieval infantry, and three regular medieval infantry to go after Vox's road with next turn...

What do they have on that mountain with the workers again? Oh, and is their road finished yet?

I dunno... I think I might want 1-2 more turns of full 6 cat bombardments to further weaken their main invasion stack, and then hopefully finish it off. If we can kill it (and then the troops on A9), we will have complete freedom to do what we wish with our troops.

-Arrian

	30-04-2003 23:50									#129
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Nathan-

Can you email the save?

	30-04-2003 23:51									#130
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By the way, we could move Grog on Wheels into Tempest this turn also, completely eliminating the possibility of losing the city in our upcoming turn but risking losing Grog on Wheels if Vox attacks Tempest and gets past our four pikes (dead or down to one hit point).

	30-04-2003 23:52									#131
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Save is on its way to the usual suspects.

	30-04-2003 23:59									#132
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"Old McDonald had a farm, eee-ie-eee-ie-oh, and on the farm he... shot some guys, badda-bing-badda-bing-bam-boom!" [/Usual Suspects]



-Arrian

	01-05-2003 00:05									#133
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The road finishes next turn, assuming that's what they're working on. They currently have a vet spear, a vet immortal, and a regular spear defending it.

Note that if the cats move 8-7 before attacking, Vox won't get a chance to attack the cats unless we lose the battle for the road. We could get in some serious trouble if our attempt to take the road fails, or if we don't move in enough forces to hold it, though.

The big danger to waiting to attack the road is that Vox might pillage it if they decide their offensive hopes are doomed. We could wait and give Vox a turn to move in reinforcements over the road, but that could work either for us or against us: it works for us if they attempt to attack Arashi or Monsoon directly, but against us if they move to Sandstorm 8-9 (since troops there would threaten our cats even if we win).

Taking that road would be wonderful because it would open the way for WCs to attack Dissidentville without having to go the long way around. The question is, is it worth the risks and, if so, which turn do we want to strike on?

	01-05-2003 00:14									#134
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What about the need to maintain a force capable of winning if all 12 (is it?) Immortals break onto the plains to go for SS? My memory of the map tells me that any med inf in Arashi could not act against them.

BTW, Nathan. Nothing has shown up in my mail box.

PS. Trip is wondering if he can have the save. He will no doubt ask you about it.

	01-05-2003 00:19									#135
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither What about the need to maintain a force capable of winning if all 12 (is it?) Immortals break onto the plains to go for SS? My memory of the map tells me that any med inf in Arashi could not act against them.

True, there is no way for a slowmover to hit the stack if it crosses the river.

	01-05-2003 00:23									#136
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Any objectins to my including Trip on the list of people to forward saves to?

I noted the unavailability of medieval infantry to help if Vox breaks toward Sandstorm as one of the drawbacks to my proposal. If we'd wait another turn to go after the road, we could keep the medieval infantry available a little longer to help with an attack against Sandstorm, but we'd risk Vox delaying another turn and sending a bunch of troops against Monsoon at the same time in order to overload us further. On the other hand, if Vox would go for that kind of overload at the same time that we're repositioning to attack the road and shifting EotS and Hurricane to offensive production, the consequences for them would be completely catastrophic.

What if we plan, unless Vox does something to change our minds, to redeploy next turn and make our grab for the road the turn after?

	01-05-2003 00:29									#137
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Any objectins to my including Trip on the list of people to forward saves to?

I don't object. He could already see pretty much what we are about by using the load cheat anyway, better to give him completely accurate information

quote: Originally posted by nbarclay What if we plan, unless Vox does something to change our minds, to redeploy next turn and make our grab for the road the turn after?

sounds like a good idea.

	01-05-2003 00:32									#138
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What does that leave? Movement of the western galley?

-Arrian

	01-05-2003 00:32									#139
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I'll feel better once the 7 are reduced to a pile of whimpering goo at 1 hp each.

Unfortunately, Monsoon is as she has been since the beginning, our most expendable position. We cannot afford to see the situation near SS turn against us.

	01-05-2003 00:36									#140
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We still need to decide where we want the eastern galleys. I'm thinking 8-4 from where they were at the end of last turn. Also, is it okay to shift Cyclone back to workers? We'll need a bunch of them when the war is over, and I don't think reducing our WC construction rate a little will kill us.

And there's the southern galleys. Do we want both of them on the west coast for a possible Inchon there?

As for the western galley, we could either have it explore to the north or have it look for the suspected southwestern island while waiting for the other galleys to catch up.

	01-05-2003 00:40									#141
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I would be very hesitant, even at this point, to switch something away from unit building. The RNG could turn against us at any time and we could see the opposite of today's catapaults.

As far as the western galley, we could park it near D'ville to track the movements of units and guard against further GoW galleys while waiting for another galley or two for Inchon.

	01-05-2003 00:42									#142
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I'd rather have more WCs than workers right now, Nathan. Is there a reason why we should build the workers now instead of WCs and workers later?

Re: western galley... I'd like to use him as a spotter near Dissville.

Re: eastern galleys... if we go 8, 4, then their galley could, if they so chose, dart south. We could catch it, but we would have to attack it, yes?

Re: southern galleys... I'd like them in the West, yes.

-Arrian

	01-05-2003 00:46									#143
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We'll want Workers and Settlers pretty shortly. Having Cyclone on a few 1 turn Workers and then 3 turn Settlers will really help the push North once the tide turns, and units from Cyclone aren't going to make much if any difference in when that happens.

Workers for roads, Settlers for culturally claiming roads so Immortals can't attack.

	01-05-2003 00:52									#144
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If Vox would go after Monsoon the turn after finishing their road in an attempt to overload us, and if we're redeploying for an attack on the road, Vox would find itself up against three veteran medieval infantry and three regulars with nothing better to do than to go after the forces threatening Monsoon. In the meantime, Vox's forces going after Sandstorm would find themselves up against eight WCs, two or three horsemen, two veteran medieval infantry, and a veteran swordsman, with two pikemen (plus maybe soime other units that survived attacking Vox) in Sandstorm waiting to take on Vox's survivors. In the meantime, our Hurricane 8 forces could redeploy to Sandstorm 6 and Sandstorm 6-9 and still be in a position to fall back to Hurricane 8 (potentially reinforced by a new pike from Hurricane) if Vox overruns one of those positions. Vox would have to get remarkably lucky to have any significant military strength left after such a fiasco.

	01-05-2003 00:56									#145
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Was just thinking that as well, Aeson....we've got a goodish number of workers, but a couple more certainly couldn't hurt, but what we really need is 3-4 settlers (1 for a potential Inchon, and 2-3 others for border bumping).

-=Vel=-

	01-05-2003 00:59									#146
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We have a fair number of workers right now, yes? How many, exactly? 5 or 6 at least, right?

As for settlers, Aeson, I agree. We're going to need some.

However, if we do operation Inchon, we only need one in the near future. If we march on Dissville like nathan wants to (in conjunction with the Inchon op - hey, nathan's plan would probably turn Inchon into even more of a surprise) and they burn it, so be it. We can camp out on the northernmost mountain with our pikes & cats and be reasonably safe. Once we have Inchon set up, we can advance again. We could build a new city later.

-Arrian

	01-05-2003 01:00									#147
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If our galleys end up 8-4, yes, we'd have to attack Vox's galley if it makes a break south. But the only way we can keep Vox from getting south of us is to split our galleys for a blockade, and if we do that, Vox has a lot more reason to think our galleys don't have troops on them.

	01-05-2003 01:05									#148
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Let us beat them back from inside our own territory before turning our attention to workers and settlers. atw made a very good point regarding the possibility of the RNG turning against us. We cannot have too many military units at this time.

	01-05-2003 01:08									#149
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I think Vox is going to try to sandwich Tempest. That happens either next turn, or the turn after (depending on whether they want to move their N stack onto flats or not).

We need another 3 Pikes in Tempest next turn IMO. With Tempest short rushing one, Arashi finishing one, and the Bolderberg and EotS ones from this turn making it there, we should be safe even if ~15 Immortals come over that road. We kill off a good number of them on the flats, and then have enough Pikes to hold the city against what is left.

If they stay on the Mountains with the same number of Immortals, we'll need another Pike from Tempest, EotS, and Hurricane on top of that to hold the city... unless we keep getting lucky with the Cats.

15 Immortals is the upper limit here, but lets not lose anything we don't have to. Pikes are going to be our best offensive tools (guarding Cats) anyways. Having 15-20 of them for the push North would all but guarantee Vox can't stop our stack/landings. The only limiting factor in that case is movement... how many roads are left in place.

	01-05-2003 01:09									#150
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If we take Dissidentville, A city of Grog's Shadow 9 from Grog's Mountain would be useful for keeping open a land route for WCs to reach the front lines (and for other units to do so more quickly and without the risk of being intercepted at sea).. If we can take Dissidentville, I view that as a more important city site than Inchon, although I see no reason we can't do both if we can eliminate enough of Vox's forces.