03-06-2003 03:33									#31
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Yes we are still in war with them.

Do you want me to urge GoW to quicken the pace, unless they want to lose a customer (I'll get them to understand, without being rude), or get a nice price for it.

I think we should at least tell them we're quite concerned with their apparent lack of investment in research.

	03-06-2003 08:15									#32
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I wouldn't tell them that we're concerned. We should be the strong side, the confident side, the guys saying "hey GoW, just thought we'd let you know that with that kind of ETA we don't really need you, we can research it ourselves twice as fast so either forget about us as a customer or quicken your pace, or at least commit to giving us a good price in exchange for us not researching the tech ahead of you and pulling off something similar to what you did to us with Feudalism on you" in a diplomatic way.

	03-06-2003 15:16									#33
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quote: How fast we could do it ourselves if we make it full speed ahead, or at a reasonable speed?

Therotically we could do it in 4 (we would need some sponsoring though), at 7 turns we would still be losing money (1gold), don't forget that we still are in our GA, I think 10 turns is a reasonable estimate.

	03-06-2003 17:31									#34
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I'd say let them plod along. Gives us more time to build up Horses and gold for upgrades. If everyone else in the world is waiting for them to research it, we can wait too. We shouldn't spend 5 times the commerce on getting it given how much we get back for our techs in trades.

	03-06-2003 18:35									#35
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No rush, I agree with Aeson.

-Arrian

	10-06-2003 03:00									#36
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I've send UnO our idea for peace with Vox, as MSS suggested.

I hope they'd understand it as an attempt to get their support for the move, and see it as another act of arrogance.

	10-06-2003 04:07									#37
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quote: Originally posted by zeit I've send UnO our idea for peace with Vox, as MSS suggested. I hope they'd understand it as an attempt to get their support for the move, and see it as another act of arrogance.

They shouldn't. You seem to have developed a rapport with UnO, he respects us, and that will help. As long as we are "asking" and not "expecting," "demanding," or "pushing," it should come across as an honest dialog.

Mss

	10-06-2003 14:52									#38
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What about the chat UnO suggested (and now pushes for...) a couple of messages ago?

I got no response, but I guess I didn't ask for one either...

They seem to want to discuss some issue, and not just a chit-chat. Perhaps this was another reason for a change in office (UnO's coming). I think we'll need more than just 1 or 2 representatives- more like 3, with our FAM, MSS in as well (you thought you could escape, havn't you? ).
I'd say I'd join, but it depends on when and other RL stuff. But I don't think I'll contribute that much- my typing is just too slow for these mediums (I think I could manage with ND), but I'll make an effort to, as an ambassador.

Last edited by zeit on 11-06-2003 at 03:30

	11-06-2003 03:02									#39
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If no one else is available, I can attend a chat. I am also usually available at the times that UnO is (10pm to midnight EST).

	11-06-2003 03:39									#40
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I got more details from UnO, check the log.

0200 GMT- day to be decided (I guess).

For me this time is not quite convenient to say the least, at 4am, we'll chat till sundown... , so I'm not sure I'd be able to attend.

Anyway, I think we should send a decent envoy, as this looks like it's gonna be a serious one.

I'll count NYE. I think we could use at least one more, preferably our FAM.
OTOH, if we can't have enough members to attend a chat at these time, we'll have to work on changing it.

Let us set the time first, then discuss the agenda.

	11-06-2003 09:57									#41
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither If no one else is available, I can attend a chat. I am also usually available at the times that UnO is (10pm to midnight EST).

These times would work for me but I am not avaiable untill thursday or Friday. My Folks are in town 'till friday morning and its been keeping me real occupied

Mss

	14-06-2003 10:43									#42
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Log posted.

I feel bad about speaking out against MSS in that one part regarding us giving engineering in exchange for being given a blessing to kill Vox. I apologise, MSS.

However, part of the job of any of our spokesmen would be to properly gauge our priorities. To allow GoW to go away feeling that they might have a deal on that point could have given many members of GS coniptions. My reading of this forum is that we are killing Vox. That is not negotiable, and it would be a grave insult to many that we must 'purchase' the right to do away with the mortal enemies who have conived at every turn.

Be that as it may, I apologise.

	14-06-2003 10:46									#43
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Damn skippy, NYE.

Vox dies, and I'm not gonna "compensate" anybody for it, ESPECIALLY not a civ that took money in exchange for helping our enemies. Even if they are nice and on good terms with us right now.

However, the chat was a good thing overall, since we gleened important info, and perhaps have ourselves a diplomatic opening for influencing the balance of power on Bob (if GoW gets hit, maybe they will ask for assistance... and maybe, if we want, we will assist).

-Arrian

	14-06-2003 10:48									#44
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The way I'm reading things, I'd say Lego is the sugar daddy. Grrrr.

	14-06-2003 10:49									#45
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Yeah, I'm coming around to that conclusion.

Have you seen ZargonX's post in the "public announcement" thread? Another appeal for peace.

Think they might be worried about losing their tech deal?

Uh-huh. Too bad, fellas, you lose. Vox dies. End of friggin' story.

-Arrian

	14-06-2003 10:54									#46
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Oh, and here is the response that I came up with, but did not post:

quote: And again, while it is true that GS may be able to wipe Vox out, that doesn't mean that they should.

Do you have a reason why we shouldn't, beyond nebulous "good things?"

Better yet, please contact our people via diplomatic channels, and let us know why we shouldn't finish the job.

-Arrian

	14-06-2003 10:56									#47
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Arrian, see the other thread...

	14-06-2003 17:06									#48
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About Engineering: ND is researching it, does this means we can have something arranged that would please everyone, and keep Vox isolated?

	14-06-2003 17:26									#49
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I f we persuade to give it to us for free if we take out Vox really fast, denying it to others. We would have a slight problem concerning GOW though.

	14-06-2003 17:27									#50
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Hmm, Zeit, tour answer to UNO might seem a little, well, lazy
(see the log to see what I mean. )

	14-06-2003 18:11									#51
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Sorry.. a response to MZ's last post that I don't want to post publicly, but just have to post somewhere!

------------

Vox's intent is not for peace. It is to shirk the responsibility they took upon themselves when they started this war. Then, they felt they held an advantage on us, and pressed it as far as they could. Now, they realize the advantage is with us, and cry for peace.

I don't blame them for that, warfare to gain an advantage is part of the game, so is negotiation to gain an advantage. I don't even blame them for the deception they played, as it is up to their team to define what level of honor they wish to give to their agreements. They have defined that level in our estimation though, and that level is nil. Their word no longer has any meaning to GS.

So I ask, what is Vox offering to GS other than empty words, insults, false allegations, and territory we already control?

	14-06-2003 18:25									#52
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quote: I f we persuade to give it to us for free if we take out Vox really fast, denying it to others. We would have a slight problem concerning GOW though.

What I had in mind- ND selling to everyone at a very low price (to compensate for the gold already paid for Vox). ND won't get any customers at all if Vox lives long enough, and will get them all if we arrange it. This is our chance to play the game, to our advantage, without being sleazy...

After all, GoW did say they are willing to buy Eng. from us, didn't they?

Everyone is happy, Vox is isolated, we get better relations with ND, end of story.

What do you say?

	14-06-2003 18:50									#53
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Zeit: I'm in favor!

	14-06-2003 18:55									#54
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I think it's a good idea too.

	14-06-2003 21:36									#55
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Good idea zeit... I sense that ND might like a 'poly friend as well, and in a way we (ie, many of the Strat guys) are the logical candidate.

	14-06-2003 21:46									#56
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I think we should start with ND and GoW. Perhaps we could ask GoW (although this would be somewhat blunt) how much did they already paid for the tech.

	18-06-2003 15:57									#57
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Okay, we gotta start discussing actual terms for Luxury, Iron and WM trades.

I think maybe accounting any gold from GoW towards the Chivalry deal could work better than asking them to actually pay us, as I'm positive they are hoarding as much gold as possible...

They have Wines that we want, and their WM now has some of Lego's coast- do we want a Map for Map trade.

And how much we want for the Iron? and If there is war on Bob?

We should also think about timing the map and Luxs trade with RP, and perhaps ND as well...

	18-06-2003 16:17									#58
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I think Furs for Wines straight up.

Map for Map is good too, but we should definitely see if RP, Lego, and ND are willing to pay for our maps concurrently. We could probably get about 100g worth for our map between the four of them. (GoW's map being worth roughly 1/4 of that)

For Incense, a gpt payment of ~5 should be right. Works best if in conjunction with the Iron payment though. We should be able to get Chivalry and a bit of gold out of the trade, but just Chivalry would be fine with me.

	18-06-2003 16:38									#59
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What would be the best way to approach the map issue?
Selling our own map to every civ at the exact same turn, or selling our map to Lego and trading maps with GoW first while securing a better map deal (because our map will be worth more once we have Lego's coast charted) with all the Bobians for the following turn?
The latter is risky, but it can benefit us greatly.

	18-06-2003 16:59									#60
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I'd think just asking each civ to make an offer, and be up front that we are selling the map to everyone. "It's time for the world to see Stormia"...

Probably GoW ends up selling/giving our map to everyone else though. It's not a big deal, as our Map becomes almost worthless in 10 turns (thats when RP's galley will get to Hurricane). Hopefully we get a bit of gold from each team, and at the least we get a better map.