18-06-2003 17:53									#61
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And hopefully some good PR.

Zeit, if you need help with contacting other civs and asking whether a map deal could be arranged, just let me know.

	18-06-2003 18:37									#62
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furs for wine, and a WM for WM are fine for me... the rest of the deals will have to be discussed, as already said to GoW. We have to be very leniant in what they give us in return, I expect they do not want to give gold! (nor lose much gold on Chivalry)

DeepO

	18-06-2003 18:39									#63
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Whoa.

WTF is going on over there?

	18-06-2003 18:45									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Whoa. WTF is going on over there?

Is there a problem I'm missing?

	18-06-2003 18:50									#65
	Got spare money?

Look in the public forum.

	18-06-2003 18:54									#66
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

There's a sort of a revolution going on inside GoW
At least that's what I think that Theseus means

	18-06-2003 19:19									#67
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Oh I see. I had assumed they were just playing stupid public mind games again. I still think they are.

	18-06-2003 20:42									#68
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Let them have their fun, I want some peace right now.

Just a couple of relaxing turns is what the doctored ordered

	20-06-2003 04:13									#69
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We should now finish what we've started, Luxs, Maps, and Tech deals with GoW.

Chivalry will come with an infinite NDA- is it a yes or are we thinking about whoring this (or letting ND have it, If GoW doesn't want to)?

Maps: WM-WM trade, I think its fine by us (do we ask for a

Luxs: Furs for Wines, as for Incense- they can't afford. UnO havn't said anything about my 'discount towards Chivalry' idea. Iron- maybe later. How about offering this:

1) WM-WM

2) Furs-Wine

3) Future Iron contract for 20 turns (when they're current one expires) + Incense for 20 turns for Chivalry (with NDA).


Perhaps we'll have to tweak it, drop the Lux/Iron and add some gold- but as a holistic trade proposal, it does look good- if this gets ratified, we are heading for bright future

You do to admit these kind of things inspire optimism, don't you?

	20-06-2003 11:21									#70
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Oh, a definite for this one.
But I just wish there was some way we could give ND Chivalry.
Hey, who knows, maybe if ND loses, at least they can be our vassal state instead of Vox.

Last edited by Shiber on 20-06-2003 at 11:29

	20-06-2003 16:52									#71
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I really don't like the idea of taking a tech with an indefinite NDA. I can see the logic behind it, but given GoW's whoring of our tech, it sits badly to let them get away with being able to charge high prices to everyone for it because GoW remain the only source. Plus it puts them in a very strong position wrt ND, where everyone may have Chivalry except ND, who can't legally get it from anyone. Hence GoW can get their UU and GA, while ND are stuck, and short of attacking GoW there is nothing we can do to help.

Besides, letting the idea of indefinite NDAs get started is a bad idea IMHO - it stifles trade and lets the best tech researcher start to build up a lead that much more easily. I think we ought to take some kind of stand against GoW's proposal, saying we are unwilling to buy if there is an indefinite NDA (or at the absolute least demanding a lower price). Then we can either research it ourselves (expensive option, but leaves us the option of helping ND should circumsances warrant) or live without it (not necessary tech - we can skip it until such time as we need to go to war, and by then we'll be in a better condition to research it quickly; it will be cheaper due to most other civs having it, and we will have a better income and more libraries and/or universities). I don't know if we'd really want to go to GoW and say essentially "drop the permanent NDA or we'll research it ourselves" (just out of interest, how quickly can we research it relative to GoW?)

	20-06-2003 16:54									#72
	Remove this text

Other thought I forgot: as an item for chats with RP and Lego, we should see if they have also been offered the tech with indefinite NDA, and what their opinion on the subject is (and whether they would be interested in buying from e.g. us without an NDA). We may be able to generate enough pressure to get GoW to drop the idea.

	20-06-2003 17:17									#73
	Got spare money?

I can contact redstar1 of Lego Land right now. May I?

	20-06-2003 17:23									#74
	Inflate your Upload Space

I've nothing against that obviously, but I don't know if anyone else is around to give their opinions. I don't see that anything can go badly wrong, since we are just wondering if they've been offered the same terms as us (which isn't something anyone is required to keep secret about here, as far as I can see).

	20-06-2003 17:30									#75
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If anyone wants to join, please let me know.

	20-06-2003 17:34									#76
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Nevermind, it seems that redstar1 is away (for ~13.5 hrs).

	20-06-2003 20:53									#77
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Weird chat with GoW.
Apparently one head has no idea what the other head is babbling about.
Panzer32 contacted me while I was idling on IRC:

quote: [17:36] *Panzer32* hi Shiber [17:36] *Shiber* hi Panzer32 [17:36] *Shiber* how's it hangin'? [17:36] *Panzer32* good [17:37] *Shiber* redstar1 moved houses recently [17:37] *Shiber* Isn't that nice? A new place to live in? [17:38] *Panzer32* I just wanted to confirm that GS was considering Unortho's proposal for a no trade clause for chivalry. [17:38] *Panzer32* new place = [17:38] *Shiber* We are considering, yes [17:38] *Shiber* You know how we like to work out of a concensus [17:38] *Panzer32* yes [17:38] *Shiber* But you see, the whole notion of an indefinite NDA is quite a precedent [17:39] *Shiber* Sorry, I must stop for a second to emphasize that this is only my personal opinion [17:39] *Shiber* I am not speaking in behalf of my team right now [17:39] *Panzer32* I don't think I've read the PM... he suggested it indefinatly? [17:39] *Shiber* I believe he has [17:39] *Shiber* Let me check [17:40] *Shiber* In the meantime, hey, let's Email Markos and ask him if he can make Poly just a bit slower [17:40] *Panzer32* [17:40] *Shiber* [17:42] *Panzer32* also... was it an NDA or a NTA (disclosure or trade) [17:43] *Shiber* non disclosure = we can't disclose the details of the agreement to third parties? [17:44] *Panzer32* but any NDA would include by its very nature an NTA? (confirm?) [17:45] *Shiber* Wait wait wait [17:45] *Shiber* Now you got me confused [17:45] *Shiber* First of all, could you check your own team's forum and tell me exactly the details of UnO's proposal, because I'm not sure anymore [17:46] *Panzer32* I can't. I don't think he posted it [17:46] *Panzer32* I'll look for it though [17:46] *Shiber* OK, thanks [17:47] *Shiber* brb [17:47] *Panzer32* But in our forums we have discussed it as a NTA [17:47] *Panzer32* k [17:54] *Shiber* I'm back [17:54] *Shiber* Sorry for the delay [17:54] *Panzer32* thats ok [17:54] *Shiber* Please explain to me exactly what an NTA means, so that we know that we are speaking of the same thing [17:56] *Panzer32* NTA = no trade agreement. You cannot trade or gift chivalry for the time specified. No other restrictions are included. [17:56] *Shiber* And NDA = Non-Disclosure Agreement, meaning that we cannot reveal the details of the transaction to any third party? [17:57] *Shiber* Can you go and check how long UnO wanted the NTA to last? [17:57] *Panzer32* sorry, he hasn't posted it [17:57] *Shiber* Could you please ask someone? [17:58] *Panzer32* can you not access it on your forum? [17:58] *Shiber* I've been trying to get in for several minutes now [17:58] *Panzer32* basically, we probably won' [17:59] *Shiber* YOU WON?!?! [17:59] *Panzer32* t need the NTA to last for more than 20 turns [17:59] *Shiber* WHY HASN'T ANYONE TOLD ME SO?!?! [17:59] *Shiber* [17:59] *Panzer32* stupid enter key [17:59] *Shiber* [17:59] *Panzer32* basically, we probably won't need the NTA to last for more than 20 turns [17:59] *Shiber* Yes, yes. Blame your keyboard. [18:00] *Shiber* You know, that's an awfully long period of time [18:00] *Shiber* We can probably research it ourselves in half that time [18:00] *Panzer32* but then you wouldn't be researching something else [18:01] *Shiber* UnO's latest message says nothing about Chivalry [18:01] *Panzer32* does it talk about a no trade clause? [18:02] *Shiber* no [18:02] *Panzer32* dope [18:02] *Panzer32* when was it posted? [18:02] *Shiber* It is only my personal impression, but I think that my team would settle for a 20 turns NTA if it contained a clause stating that the NTA is void should GoW engage in warfare [18:02] *Shiber* Several days ago, let me get you the exact time & date [18:03] *Panzer32* Unortho sent one yesterday I believe... maybe Zeit hasn't posted it/received it yet [18:04] *Shiber* We have one from the 18th [18:07] *Shiber* Did I leave you speechless? [18:08] * Now talking in #gow [18:08] * Topic is 'The Glory Of Chat' [18:08] * Set by MasterZen on Fri May 30 23:56:10 [18:08] *Shiber* hi [18:09] *Panzer32* hi there [18:09] *Shiber* yes, UnO offered Chivalry with an infinite NTA [18:09] *Panzer32* I don't really know what to say [18:09] *Shiber* That's a bit too much to ask [18:10] *Panzer32* did he mention anything as payment for the NTA? [18:10] *Shiber* Perhaps we can accept an infinite NTA if the agreement contains a clause stating that it is void should GoW engage in warfare with a team that does not have Chivalry [18:10] *Shiber* Or else we lose potential clients [18:11] *Panzer32* I don't think our team would accept that [18:11] *Panzer32* what about a 20 turn NTA? [18:11] *Shiber* UnO's proposal was for future iron + incense for 20 turns for Chivalry with an infinite NTA [18:12] *Shiber* 20 turns is too long. Remember that we asked for half of that with Feudalism, and we were the only ones with the tech at the time too [18:12] *Shiber* What's your ETA on Chivalry? [18:12] *Panzer32* We already have a deal for chivalry - 200 gold for it. [18:12] *Panzer32* the trade for a NTA is totally seperate [18:12] *Shiber* I thought you're researching it [18:13] *Panzer32* yes [18:13] *Panzer32* you pay 200 gold [18:13] *Panzer32* (cross post) [18:13] *Shiber* We have signed on this? [18:13] *Panzer32* I believe so [18:14] *Panzer32* it has been around for at least 10 or 15 turns [18:14] *Shiber* I don't recall that [18:14] *Shiber* Anyway, UnO has made us a different proposal [18:14] *Shiber* Oh, sorry, I have to go for a sec [18:14] *Panzer32* he wasn' [18:14] *Panzer32* t supposed to do that [18:14] *Panzer32* k [18:16] *Shiber* Back [18:16] *Shiber* Sorry, RL [18:16] *Shiber* So if our previous deal still stands, what's the NTA attached to it? [18:17] *Panzer32* There was no NTA attached to it. We want to trade for one now. [18:18] *Shiber* Btw, I take it that the WM for WM deal is fine with you? [18:18] *Panzer32* yes [18:18] *Shiber* And furs for incense? [18:18] *Panzer32* one sec [18:22] * Panzer_32 has joined #gow [18:22] * Panzer32 has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [18:22] *Panzer_32* sorry... computer crashed [18:23] *Panzer_32* what was the lux trade? [18:23] *Shiber* eek [18:24] *Shiber* yeouch [18:24] *Shiber* sorry to hear [18:24] * Panzer_32 is now known as Panzer32 [18:24] *Shiber* furs for incense [18:24] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Panzer32 [18:24] *Panzer32* you give furs? [18:25] *Panzer32* uhh... I'm sorry to say we don't have any incense. [18:25] *Panzer32* we do have wines though [18:26] * Panzer32 sets mode: +s [18:29] *Panzer32* you there? [18:32] *Shiber* Sorry, I was away for a sec [18:32] *Shiber* Yes, it's furs for wines, my bad [18:32] *Panzer32* ok [18:32] *Shiber* UnO has shown interest in getting a supply of iron and incense in the future [18:32] *Shiber* He proposed Chivalry for free (but with an infinite NTA) in exchange for iron and incense [18:33] *Panzer32* no... we can't give chivalry for free [18:33] *Shiber* I'm only repeating UnO's suggestion [18:34] *Shiber* uhh... look, this is kind of unpleasant [18:34] *Shiber* Please get back to GS, formally, when you have a clear and backed-up opinion [18:34] *Panzer32* The Iron is a backup. We will only need it if ND cuts our source ie attacks us. we would pay when we need it. [18:34] *Shiber* Otherwise, we just can't talk business this way [18:34] *Shiber* ND will not attack you before they have Chivalry [18:35] *Shiber* I take it that you'd like to withhold that tech from ND [18:35] *Shiber* (personal opinion) [18:35] *Shiber* My take on the situation is that you want to team up with RP and eat up ND [18:35] *Panzer32* it might delay our trading of chivalry if we do wait to get a clear opinion [18:35] *Shiber* Panzer32, what's your ETA on Chivalry? [18:35] *Panzer32* 3 turns [18:35] *Shiber* We are in no urgent need for that tech [18:36] *Shiber* 3 turns is plenty of time, given the rate at which this game is going [18:37] *Panzer32* ok, you don't need to dicsuss Unortho's proposal since it is impossible for the team [18:37] *Panzer32* hopefully we'll have a good proposal tonight or tommorrow [18:39] *Shiber* OK [18:39] *Shiber* May I post this log to my team's forum? [18:39] *Panzer32* sure [18:39] *Panzer32* and same for me? [18:40] *Panzer32* actually could you send it to me since I don't have the first half? [18:41] *Shiber* Will do [18:41] *Panzer32* thanks [18:41] *Shiber* Make sure to mention that it is unofficial, I've no official ambassadorship to GoW [18:42] *Panzer32* yep

	20-06-2003 21:14									#78
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Arne't we selling IRON just a little to cheap? To GoW it could mean life or death.
And if we don't intend to use it (offensively), chivalry isn't the most important tech IMO.

	20-06-2003 21:16									#79
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Sound from that as though Unorthodox was not representing anything official when he made the infinite NDA offer, but was rather testing out a backup plan - namely if ND attacked GoW, GoW would be willing to drop the 200 gold price-tag in return for some iron (lost when ND attacked) and essentially a promise not to trade Chivalry to ND or to anyone who might trade it to ND - basically they'd give us Chivalry for essentially nothing in return for us not giving it to their enemies.

All rather pointless, since as Shiber says in the chat, ND are hardly going to start a war if they don't have chivalry and GoW do...

	20-06-2003 21:20									#80
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alva - I don't think we're selling Iron on those terms at all, quite aside from the infinite NDA issue. Iron and incense for a tech that we might be able to get by without completely (depending on what happens in the future of course)? We do have some use for chivalry if we decide to intervene in Bob, although we probably get nearly as much value out of Med Inf landing next to cities from galleys. Knights for home defence would be nice, but redundant unless someone attacks us.

	21-06-2003 01:43									#81
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It seems there was some misunderstanding. I havn't logged the part in which UnO said they wanted to add a NDA (or NTA)- since he didn't state the exact period, I had assumed he meant it was indefinite. This is the extra note from UnO (sorry for not logging this... )

quote: Zeit, Apologies, again. Seems we are both short of time today. We were wondering if it would be possible to add a no-trade clause to our deal for Chivalry? We are of course attempting a world wide release, but just in case all deals are not finalized, we are asking this of all teams. UnOrthOdOx Vice CALF and Ambassador to Gathering Storm.

As for offering us a concrete offer regarding the Luxuries, Iron and the tech: there was no such offer, beyond what I had logged (Map-Map and Wine-Furs). What I had posted here was just an idea that was running around here on our team, and I thought its time to bring it up.

	21-06-2003 03:48									#82
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A personal note of apology to Panzer32. I'm posting this here instead of in the logs thread because this is not official correspondence.

quote: Panzer32, I would like to apologize, personally, for the events of the chat that we have held today. As a result of a small mixup, when one of my team's member has forgotten to log UnOrthOdOx's latest note and may have already misinterpreted parts of it, has led to a series of complex events which resulted in several members of Gathering Storm, myself being guilty among not a few, to get the wrong impression of Glory of War's intentions for the Chivalry deal, as well as other proposed deals. I regret if today's chat has caused any uneasiness or unpleasantness. Please accept my humble and sincere apologies, and my wishes that this will not affect the future relations of both our teams - as I, for one, very much appreciate them and look forward to strengthening them in the future, despite some of the past events that we have gone through. Finally, I would like to emphasize that this is a personal message, and as such I have not consulted any of my team mates with regard to its contents, though I imagine that they feel the same as I do about this unfortunate mistake. Looking forward to a bright future! Sincerely, Shiber, member of team Gathering Storm.

	21-06-2003 12:54									#83
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What we'd discussed earlier when we lined up the Feudalism deal and made preliminary plans for the Chivalry deal was having the same NDA duration, ten turns, apply to both. That seems fair to me.

Regarding whether or not we need Chivalry, what we absolutely, definitely need to avoid is a situation where we need Chivalry to fight off an invasion and no one is willing to sell it to us (at least at a halfway decent price). Without a GA, imagine the difficulty of coming up with both gold to pay for Chivalry at emergency desperation prices and gold to pay for upgrades.

	21-06-2003 14:23									#84
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I agree with Nathan. Same NDA duration, that was the original deal.

	21-06-2003 17:04									#85
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quote: Regarding whether or not we need Chivalry,

I wasn't arguing against getting chivalry, just when I thought what the deal be would (my mistake btw) be, was too much for it.

It certainly would be reasuring to have it.

	21-06-2003 17:25									#86
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Okay, since it seems we agree on a 10 turn NDA, I'll go ahead and send UnO our proposal, with a 10-turn 10, I will state that if they just can't allow themselves the Luxury and/or the Iron (I very much doubt they would refuse the Iron bit, but still) that we would be willing to add a sum of gold to be negotiated (we have plenty of time for that, before the tech is due).

	21-06-2003 17:35									#87
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UnO told me yesterday that GoW is three turns away from finishing Chivalry.

	21-06-2003 17:49									#88
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looks like UnO was ahead of me- he officially offered 200 gold for Chivalry (10-turn NDA), with the Map-Map and Lux-Lux trade as well. I think It's fine by us, so I took the freedom of saying yes. Still, I did a last effort to push the Incense/Iron arrangement, while trying not to sound pushy and rude.

	21-06-2003 18:20									#89
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Here's an idea: for a backup iron and agreeing to a 10 turn no-trade clause that only applies to civs that GoW will not sell Chivalry to itself (we can only talk with civs about selling Chivalry before the 10 turns period is over if GoW is not going to sell them Chivalry, so if GoW doesn't sell Chivalry to ND, we still can), we get Chivalry at 100 gold instead of 200 gold.

	21-06-2003 18:21									#90
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If and when we forward this suggestion, we should IMHO emphasize that we have no urgent need for Chivalry (hopefully GoW will do the thinking and realize that we may buy it from someone else later instead if GoW doesn't lower the price, and GoW will end up in the same position as we have with regard to Feudalism).